RE: Japan hangs three death-row inmates

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Aswad -> RE: Japan hangs three death-row inmates (2/11/2008 1:05:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Decideing through a representative process that if convicted of a sex crime against a child you go on a list is not vigilantism. I think you are experienceing another language break down. Not at all. The list results in vigilantism. And it is implicitly accepted. Some are explicit about accepting it. quote: The vast majority of people do not engage in vigilantism even if not happy with the result of the trial. Some people do, but they are by far in the minority. The vast majority do not act at all, unlesss directed by an authority (whether vested or inherent). How many women do you know who have been beaten or raped in plain sight, with nobody lifting a hand to interfere? Health, al-Aswad.

luckydog1 -> RE: Japan hangs three death-row inmates (2/11/2008 1:17:11 PM)
Now to your longer post. I doubt that very many modern Norwegians would last a day in the Viking Culture either, so I don't see why the fact that Black Americans have changed, matters at all. African Tribal Dance? All Modern American Music and Dance is affected by African Tribal rythm and dance. You are just flat out wrong on that point. African legends and stories are taught to all American children, and have been for hundreds of years, and they have been identified as African. I should have said the Result of using logic like this is entierly subjective. You can put any premises you want in and get the result. To use the old Computer Phrase...Garbage in Garbage out. You keep coming back to Prevailing Europeon Sentiment, but keep insisting that is not the basis of your argument. That is really All I am seeing. You have not given me a reason I consider valid to only view it within the Set of White Christian Countries. That just seems entirely subjective, and I am sure you are smart enough to follow me on that. It sems to be the main root of your argument. Europeon Christians became humanist, and outlawed Capital Punishment, therefore the USA should also (as a largely Christian nation), as it has some of its roots in Europe. I just don't buy it as a valid argument. We really have gone round and round here. Would you like to restate why I should oppose Capital Punishment, leaving out any arguments that involve, "because the Europeons did"? Going way back that The average Europeon uses the words Muder and Excecution after a jury trial with appeals are the same thing, but that is just because Europeons says so in common usage. As you admitted, the 2 concepts are distinct in your dictionaries. Again I don't believe that there is "a single moral attitude" on Capital Punishment in Europe, though I admit there is a Majority view.

mnottertail -> RE: Japan hangs three death-row inmates (2/11/2008 1:23:07 PM)
quote: African legends and stories are taught to all American children, and have been for hundreds of years, and they have been identified as African. This, as many other things he says, is simply untrue, al-Aswad. He cannot cite it, nor can he find anyone who will agree with him and recite this multitude of african legends and stories that are remembered being taught to crackers if he goes from the oldest living civil war veteran, to the newest infant in america. Oh, he might get a sock puppet or two to give you some quick overviews from wiki or whatever, but it simply is not the case. It is called lying and pretending by him. Ron

luckydog1 -> RE: Japan hangs three death-row inmates (2/11/2008 1:33:15 PM)
Nope Uncle Remus stories, Song of the South, The Aesop fables, Rabbit stories (what do you think Bugs Bunny was but a reworking of a traditional African Folk god Rabbit the Trickster) all African origin. Gospel Music, Blues, Jazz, Rock and Roll, Funk and Rap all have extensive link to African tradtions brought over by the Slaves. Even Modern Country Music grew out of Tex/Mex music combined with Rock andRoll. I guess folks in Minnessotta might have missed all that stuff, or more likely want to pretend that Whites made it all. As with almost everything I say it is absolutly true.

mnottertail -> RE: Japan hangs three death-row inmates (2/11/2008 1:53:33 PM)
Joel Chandler Harris, A cartoon based on his works, A mythical Greek----- They all undoubtably ooze the black experience. I think that TEX/MEX is undoubtably not the largest reason for black history month. Now I will agree in some part with your assessment of music culture. This of course was not the statement under discussion. In Minnesota we do actually learn some of this. We do not pretend that JCH, WD, the largest portion of the fables writers, Mel Blank or spaniards are African folk. Ron

RealityLicks -> RE: Japan hangs three death-row inmates (2/11/2008 2:12:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Nope Uncle Remus stories, Song of the South, The one is an adaptation of the other quote: The Aesop fables, While "Aesop" is a name rooted from "Ethiopia" it refers to the Ethiopia known to the Ancient Greeks. Not that in East Africa but the one sited around modern day Libya. There isn't a link in that literary source to transatlantic slave trade antecedents of American culture. quote: Rabbit stories (what do you think Bugs Bunny was but a reworking of a traditional African Folk god Rabbit the Trickster) all African origin. B'rer Rabbit - you're on more solid ground here. I don't know whether Anansi, another Western African popular fable could be included. Definite transmission to the Caribbean, though. quote: Gospel Music, Blues, Jazz, Rock and Roll, Funk and Rap all have extensive link to African tradtions brought over by the Slaves. Even Modern Country Music grew out of Tex/Mex music combined with Rock andRoll. I guess folks in Minnessotta might have missed all that stuff, or more likely want to pretend that Whites made it all. There is no question that without African call and response, there is no rock and roll, however as a medium for the transmission of morality - maybe not. I might point out that this no more of an error than the earlier assertion that the Islamic religion is not Abrahamic, which I thought an extraordinary statement. Ishmael, Isaac etc? But since the legal traditions of the "peoples of the book" vary so greatly it disrailed Aswad's argument a tad! Also, few outsiders can ever enter an agrarian tribal culture, whether westernised or indeed tribal themselves. Odd to point this out in the case of western blacks, what would you expect after all? Magic? As to moving into African non-tribal cultures? Happens every day. Entertaining as this exchange is, it has to be said both sides have made many sweeping generalisations. I don't think this kind of convo can happen without them. The audience is strangely partisan but then, thats collarme. Interestingly, the concentration on dodgy Biblical references misses out the formation of processes of justice among Christian Anglo-Saxon and Pagan Nordic cultures, which is what you should have been citing. Popcorn at the ready, carry on. edited for smelling

Aswad -> RE: Japan hangs three death-row inmates (2/11/2008 2:37:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 I doubt that very many modern Norwegians would last a day in the Viking Culture either, so I don't see why the fact that Black Americans have changed, matters at all. See, there's a distinct reason for this. Once upon a time, there was a man called Olaf the Stout. He may have been the fiercest dog we ever bred, and went raiding from age 11. Now, at some point during his life, he encountered Christianity. Perhaps he saw it the way I see it, or perhaps there was some other reason that he took a liking to it. In either case, he decided to bring it to every man, woman and child of Norway, whether they agreed or not. And he had the balls and the steel to see it done. His reign was finally ended at the Battle of Stiklestad, where he met an army twice his size, led by Thore the Dog, Hårek from Thjøttu, and Kalf son of Arne. In the end, Thorstone Smith of Knarre chopped his thigh with an axe, Thore drove a spear through his belly, and somebody stuck a sword through his throat. Olaf the Stout, later known as St. Olav the Holy, died, but the power and influence he had wielded could not be undone: the church remained a permanent factor, and the old ways died. It isn't a matter of having been isolated, but of the culture having moved on. The African cultures in question have probably changed, too, but African Americans haven't changed with it, nor have they retained their heritage. quote: African Tribal Dance? All Modern American Music and Dance is affected by African Tribal rythm and dance. Which is not to say that it contains the same meaning, or is even remotely similar, as even a Capoeira instructor will demonstrate. quote: African legends and stories are taught to all American children, and have been for hundreds of years, and they have been identified as African. Yet I do not hear American creationists forwarding that creation happened by splitting a large tree in three pieces, or that a white giant created it all. And I've yet to see an American attack someone for eating with the "unclean" hand. quote: I should have said the Result of using logic like this is entierly subjective. You can put any premises you want in and get the result. To use the old Computer Phrase...Garbage in Garbage out. Bingo. But you get correct garbage out, as opposed to incorrect garbage. The result is consistent with the premise. quote: You keep coming back to Prevailing Europeon Sentiment, but keep insisting that is not the basis of your argument. That is really All I am seeing. I keep coming back to the idea that the moral and cultural heritage is almost entirely shared, and that major influences upon it are, as well. That is what you are not seeing: the idea that there is nothing to substantiate a major difference in moral values, but plenty to suggest a different application of the same basic morality. quote: You have not given me a reason I consider valid to only view it within the Set of White Christian Countries. That just seems entirely subjective, and I am sure you are smart enough to follow me on that. It sems to be the main root of your argument. Demonstrate a major moral influence from another source, then. quote: Europeon Christians became humanist, and outlawed Capital Punishment, therefore the USA should also (as a largely Christian nation), as it has some of its roots in Europe. I just don't buy it as a valid argument. No. You're not following, here. Europe was humanist at the time they exported people to America. Significant figures in the ethics field after that time have been shared, as well. Church influences have been shared. Other significant influences on morality are simply not in evidence. And the bulk of the major movements- such as civil rights, abolition, women's liberation, and so forth- have been shared. It's really simple: the social development has to a large extent been shared, and the moral development has been shared to an even greater extent, and both started from the same outset. Nothing has been forwarded to support the notion of a major detour in moral thought. However, there are demonstrable differences in the resulting actions, which supports a difference in the application of the same basic morals. quote: We really have gone round and round here. Would you like to restate why I should oppose Capital Punishment, leaving out any arguments that involve, "because the Europeons did"? Until you understand what the current argument is, that makes no sense. quote: Again I don't believe that there is "a single moral attitude" on Capital Punishment in Europe, though I admit there is a Majority view. There isn't a single moral attitude on anything, but there is a consensus view. And what I am positing isn't a difference in morals, but a difference in their application. Health, al-Aswad.

luckydog1 -> RE: Japan hangs three death-row inmates (2/11/2008 2:41:46 PM)
Yeah Reality, many sweeping generalisations by both of us, no doubt, part of the terrain. I didn't limit African influence to just slave impacts, but I see your point, and Aesop fables, ok ill take that off the list, even though African in origin. Aesop had just as much influence on Europe as America, but it is African and not of the originally of Christian tradition. Song of the South/ Uncle Remus were Braer rabbit stories. Remus was in books Oral tales and passed around for a long time Rabbit is not the only african folk motif/god used in them. Song of the South was a movie made with some of the stories, in the 20th century. The tales had been told to kids in America since the early 1700s. And Rabbit/trickster is the origin of the Bugs Character, yeah a white guy took the idea and ran with it. Some people think Elvis created Rock and Roll also. The fact that many things in American culture were of African origin or influence, but denied is part of our historical legacy of Racism. You really think Bugs Bunny was created out of the vacume, with no outside influences? That those cartoons were not full of cultural refernces? If so I have to disagree. I think the idea that the African Americans and Native living among us has not had an impact on American culture, of which Morals is an intregal part, is ridiculous, and hard to explain other than Racist. But that is the implication that American morality is part of the set of Europeon Morality , termed the West, as a factual premise for using logic to determine right and wrong. I will conceede that that the Europeon influence has been greater, but that is fast changing. Which I think (completely personal opinion) is for the better.

luckydog1 -> RE: Japan hangs three death-row inmates (2/11/2008 3:07:16 PM)
Aswad I wil admit, I don't know what the central question is any more, thats why I asked you to restate it. The problem with your long wide ranging posts, is that we now have dozens of arguements on the board. Now I am supposed to debate the degree of traditionality in Capiopia, as practiced where, what style?? Way back you declared Capital Punishment to be "wrong". I really haven't gotten anything from you but that Prevailing Europeon Sentiment says so. Thats what you seem to be citing as the premises, completely subjectivley. Why are you saying that the Aplication of Western Morals in the USA is wrong. Why isn't the Europeon model wrong? Because of how you choose to load the Premises. I do understand that within your personal set of values it is wrong. I can't, nor am I trying to change you on that point. But why are you attempting to apply your subjective set of Moral Values to me or America? There are indeed people that teach traditional creation myths. There are Yupiks who say that White People came from Monkeys and Innupiats came from Ravens, The majority understand that these are myths and not supposed to be taken literally. America never had an Olaf who Christianised, to a paticular Doctrine, Americans by the sword. I will take your word as to what moral Objectivism means, and I reject it. Anyone with brains can set the premie to get the result they want from Logic applied to Morals. Its a fancy use of rhetoric, that does confuse a lot of people, lots of big words and convoluted arguments. But all meaningless becuase the result will be based on how the premise is set.

Aswad -> RE: Japan hangs three death-row inmates (2/11/2008 4:22:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Aswad I wil admit, I don't know what the central question is any more, thats why I asked you to restate it. The central question at this junction is the following dichotomy (and I invite you to demonstrate it to be a false dichotomy if you wish): Option 1: Capital punishment, as practiced in the US, is in line with consensus morality in the US and there is no compromised integrity of values. Option 2: Capital punishment, as practiced in the US, is a compromise in the application of the consensus morality in the US, with less integrity of values. quote: Way back you declared Capital Punishment to be "wrong". Let's refine the assertion to stating that I posit that Option 2, as outlined above, is the correct interpretation. quote: Why isn't the Europeon model wrong? An excellent question. Both started with capital punishment. Moral development progressed in step in both areas, and has been quite focused on refining the preexisting morality, rather than defining a new one. The prevailing view has in my opinion become such that both consensus moralities reject capital punishment at the value level, and I posit that there are other considerations than the strictly moral ones that cause the application of consensus morality in the US to condone the use of capital punishment. As such, I further posit that the US application has less integrity, in that other concerns- such as vengeful emotions- are allowed to trump strict morality. quote: I do understand that within your personal set of values it is wrong. It is not. Within my personal set of values, the US can feed pledged citizens into meat grinders, if they wish. I just don't think it's the best option. And, as noted above, I think it is lacking in integrity (due to compromise of morals) and a defined base of support in terms of morality and utility (which needs a goal to go with it). quote: But why are you attempting to apply your subjective set of Moral Values to me or America? I am merely explaining why I think it is out of other concerns than moral ones. My original comment that saying that "two wrongs don't make a right" is incongruent with capital punishment could be argued seperately, of course. quote: There are indeed people that teach traditional creation myths. Yes. But it has not had an impact on consensus culture or consensus morality. Not a dent. quote: America never had an Olaf who Christianised, to a paticular Doctrine, Americans by the sword. Correct. But it did have plantation owners and citizens who, in effect, pretty much erased African culture from America. quote: I will take your word as to what moral Objectivism means, and I reject it. You might want to have a closer look at it, since I hardly explained it; Wikipedia will suffice for a brief glimpse. quote: Anyone with brains can set the premie to get the result they want from Logic applied to Morals. No, that involves tampering with the axioms. quote: Its a fancy use of rhetoric, that does confuse a lot of people, lots of big words and convoluted arguments. But all meaningless becuase the result will be based on how the premise is set. You seem to forget that the premise is the sum total of the morality being examined, and the question being tested for its integrity. Health, al-Aswad.

luckydog1 -> RE: Japan hangs three death-row inmates (2/11/2008 5:20:44 PM)
"You seem to forget that the premise is the sum total of the morality being examined, and the question being tested for its integrity. " NO, you are testing the question within your own subjective framing of Morality, and defining others Morality for them. I have to disagree that there was not a divergence in American and Europeon Morality/ culture. It has been quite explicitly cultivated in America. And I simply disagree that African Culture has not had an impact on American Culture. I do not believe it was completely erased. tampering/choosing with consideration same thing. Unless you have some sort of revealed truth to base the assumptions (premises, axioms, whatever term you want to use) on, it is subjective, 100%. And you can get whatever result you want. The impact of traditional creation myth is huge in America, it includes the (radically differntly defined than in Europe) Christian Creation Myth also. Natives had impacts on our Culture also. I know that Norwegians did not study the governemnt and culture of the Trolls (Sami) to find usefull things. But we did in America, the culture of the Iriquois confederation for example. Sami didn't even become full citizens untill the 1960s, despite hundred of years of Humanism. When one speaks of public opinion in Norway, they don't count if I understood your earlier point, that if I asked Sami Norweigian who moved to Alaska a few years ago, it would not matter. Now between your 2 options I suppose I choose #2. The conditions of #1 are impossible to achieve, therefore there is nothing I could honestly choose except for #2. That seems a logic game that you are certainly smart enough to see. Lets test your question. Lets plug in a different law (law X) instead of Capital Punishment. And lets change from the US to Any country. Option 1: Law X, as practiced anwhere, is in line with consensus morality in that place and there is no compromised integrity of values. Option 2: Law X, as practiced anywhere, is a compromise in the application of the consensus morality of that place, with less integrity of values. Obviously 2 is correct, unless you are now asserting that Law in Europe or Norway or anywhere is 100% in sync with consensus morality of that place, there will always be less than 100% integrity. However #2 is huge includes any and all cultures and forms of Law. Having 100% integrity isn't one of my goals, as it is not achievable. I do want to get as close as reasonably possible. And think having a representative form of Government (in actuality not only on paper) despite its flaws is the best way of achieving the Goal of Integrity in Law. Do you think there is any place that meets the condiitons of #1? The 100% sync up with an arbitrarily chosen set of Premises, is your goal, not mine. I wanted you to explain why it is wrong.

Aswad -> RE: Japan hangs three death-row inmates (2/11/2008 6:02:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 NO, you are testing the question within your own subjective framing of Morality, and defining others Morality for them. Feel free to provide a better approximation to US consensus morality. quote: I have to disagree that there was not a divergence in American and Europeon Morality/ culture. It has been quite explicitly cultivated in America. There has been a divergence, but it has not been major, among other things because the bulk of the divergence has been exported back to Europe. quote: And I simply disagree that African Culture has not had an impact on American Culture. I do not believe it was completely erased. I did not contend that it did not have an impact. I contended that its impact on American morality was not a significant one. quote: tampering/choosing with consideration same thing. Unless you have some sort of revealed truth to base the assumptions (premises, axioms, whatever term you want to use) on, it is subjective, 100%. And you can get whatever result you want. Yes. But I have forwarded a premise that we are still debating, namely that there isn't a significant divergence of morality, merely a divergence in application. quote: The impact of traditional creation myth is huge in America, it includes the (radically differntly defined than in Europe) Christian Creation Myth also. Creationists and ID proponents have pretty consistently forwarded Christian creation myths over African and Native American ones. quote: Natives had impacts on our Culture also. Would Native Americans agree that there has been any significant adoption of their culture and morals in mainstream America? quote: I know that Norwegians did not study the governemnt and culture of the Trolls (Sami) to find usefull things. Correct. The cultures have been seen as too divergent, so the Sami are basically autonomous. quote: But we did in America, the culture of the Iriquois confederation for example. What elements would you contend were adopted into mainstream American consensus morality? quote: Sami didn't even become full citizens untill the 1960s, despite hundred of years of Humanism. Correct, as far as I know. It's always pretty much been two countries who share territory. quote: When one speaks of public opinion in Norway, they don't count if I understood your earlier point, that if I asked Sami Norweigian who moved to Alaska a few years ago, it would not matter. Norway has a Finno-Uralic population (Sami) with one set of culture, morals and language, and a PIE population (the rest) witth another set of culture, morals and languages. When speaking of public opinion in the context of comparing cultures, languages and moralities between PIE groups, it does not make any more sense to include the distinctly different Finno-Uralic population than it does to include the Ainu population, or the Inuit, or any other basically unrelated population. [quotte]Now between your 2 options I suppose I choose #2. Which is what I contended all along. Glad we agree on that. quote: That seems a logic game that you are certainly smart enough to see. No game. I made an assertion that I later clarified. You agree that the assertion was correct. The argument arises from having spent a lot of the intervening time not actually grasping the exact assertion made. In effect, what happened is simply that you read a lot more into my assertion than I had ever put into it in the first place, and argued from that. quote: Option 1: Law X, as practiced anwhere, is in line with consensus morality in that place and there is no compromised integrity of values. Let's use the law against rape in Norway as an example. It is clearly a crime. The act is also clearly in violation of consensus morality in this place. The consensus morality clearly accepts that the offender be tried before a jury to ascertain guilt. The consensus morality also clearly accepts, at the levels of morals, ethical values, and governing principles, that such a person be confined from society for some time, and that rehabilitation be attempted. Temporary deprivation of freedom (in the sense of moving about freely, etc.) is within the scope of the consensus morality. A sentiment calling for additional punishment will be expressed by some out of emotion, but is not in line with the governing principles and ethical foundations. The sentence meted out is deprivation of freedom (jail) with an attempt made at rehabilitation, without any additional punishment. No group of any significant size forwards the notion that this is inconsistent with the consensus morality. No mainstream school of ethics forwards the notion that this is inconsistent with the ethics underlying the consensus morality. Where will you posit that the laws in this case are not is in accord with consensus morality and underlying ethics, in a manner that has full integrity? quote: Obviously 2 is correct, unless you are now asserting that Law in Europe or Norway or anywhere is 100% in sync with consensus morality of that place, there will always be less than 100% integrity. See the above. quote: Having 100% integrity isn't one of my goals, as it is not achievable. It is achievable. I've done it with a "purified" (i.e. tweaked for integrity by resolving conflicts at a value level) version of the consensus morality. Allow me to demonstrate an ethic that can be applied with 100% integrity. Assume as the fundamental values (axioms) that what is right is to kill, and that taking any feasible steps to maximie the kill count is right. By the second axiom, immediate suicide is rejected (it would lower the total kill count to one, over a worst case of two), and it is mandated that one attempt to avoid being stopped by the law enforcement agencies, insofar as it is feasible and done so as to maximize the kill count (i.e. hiding for a quarter decade after a kill doesn't work, as even a single killing spree would exceed that). There is no imperative to take every opportunity to kill, as one must balance the total kill count as well as possible. Provided every effort is made to kill as many people as possible, the ethic has been carried out with complete integrity. Is it an alien ethic, and reprehensible to both my own sensibilities and the prevailing morality? Yes, unequivocally so. But is it an ethic that can be adhered to with complete integrity? Absolutely. quote: I do want to get as close as reasonably possible. As I have noted, skipping the death penalty is a step in that direction, and one that does not constitute a step back in social efficiency from the status quo. quote: And think having a representative form of Government (in actuality not only on paper) despite its flaws is the best way of achieving the Goal of Integrity in Law. It is a workable compromise, for the most part. The reason is redundancy. For an error to be propagated, it must be widespread. An undesireable side effect of this, is that corrections must also be widespread to be propagated. Consequently, the death penalty is allowed to remain, until such time as there is a more widespread integrity in application of morals. quote: I wanted you to explain why it is wrong. Which has been demonstrated and agreed to, to the extent of what was implied by stating that it was wrong. Health, al-Aswad.

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