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Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 8:48:43 AM

LadyAngelika

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In another thread, HP said the following:

quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert
And I'll get off topic here by explaining that I believe dominant skills include the arts of charm and persuasion. I think you've got those skills in abundance and and can get your way in almost any situation by subtly using them to your advantage; therefore folks can be dominated in that sense whether they want it or even realize it or not and for that matter you may not even realize you're doing it. I don't kid myself by thinking that I'm charming; that lack of charm limits my ability to persuade to simply beating others into accepting my position on occasion by overwhelming them with an barrage of facts. No art or subtlety involved there.

So, I think it is possible to dominate folks even if they don't want it and I think you've got the skills to do it. And that's why I pointed out the potential difference in outlooks.

I guess to a certain degree I’ve always seen my dominance as luring someone into doing what it is that I wanted them to do. But now HP presents me with another perspective that I had yet to consider. For the record though, in my exchanges with HP, I think he has more charm then he’s willing to admit ;-)

So what is it for you? Subtle persuasion or beating others into accepting? Or somewhere in between? Or something completely different?

- LA

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 10:02:49 AM

bladerunner5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

In another thread, HP said the following:

quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert
And I'll get off topic here by explaining that I believe dominant skills include the arts of charm and persuasion. I think you've got those skills in abundance and and can get your way in almost any situation by subtly using them to your advantage; therefore folks can be dominated in that sense whether they want it or even realize it or not and for that matter you may not even realize you're doing it. I don't kid myself by thinking that I'm charming; that lack of charm limits my ability to persuade to simply beating others into accepting my position on occasion by overwhelming them with an barrage of facts. No art or subtlety involved there.

So, I think it is possible to dominate folks even if they don't want it and I think you've got the skills to do it. And that's why I pointed out the potential difference in outlooks.

I guess to a certain degree I’ve always seen my dominance as luring someone into doing what it is that I wanted them to do. But now HP presents me with another perspective that I had yet to consider. For the record though, in my exchanges with HP, I think he has more charm then he’s willing to admit ;-)

So what is it for you? Subtle persuasion or beating others into accepting? Or somewhere in between? Or something completely different?

- LA

I see a dom as someone who wants what I have to give, someone who's willing to help me do what I want to do, and someone who's willing to help me when I need it.

I guess it's possible to dominate someone even if they don't want it, but to me, that's not D/S anymore, that's just pushy if it's minor and abusive when it's major. 'Luring someone' into doing something? Unless it's a something that matches up enough with my somethings, it's not any different from 'beating others into accepting' - it's the same pushy/abusive person, just different tactics.

Persuasion doesn't have to be subtle, but it does - for me - need to have some degree of consent. I may not have thought through all the possible tactics or consequences, but I need to have consented at some point along the way, and I need to have some degree of consent *all* along the way. I may not like what I have to do to get where I want to go, but I need to buy into it, I need to decide that the process and/or result are what I want, that it's worth it to get to where I want to go.

Bladerunner

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 10:05:14 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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For me it's not a dominant or submissive quality, it's just a keen awareness of one's self, one's environment and how to reach what you want with everyone still smiling at the end of it.

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 10:31:53 AM

happypervert

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When considering persuasion as a dominant trait, I was really thinking of outside a bdsm context -- politicians, business executives, and even salespeople can get others to do stuff they may not initially want to do. So when I hear the term "natural dominant" tossed around that's what I think of even though it could refer to someone vanilla.

So I think that persuasion can make a person dominant over a wider audience than someone who isn't persuasive; however the less persuasive person can still be dominant as long as there is one willing partner.

< Message edited by happypervert -- 9/5/2005 10:33:12 AM >

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 12:32:06 PM

Oumae

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Seeing as some see "luring" as being slightly negative I'll use the term "inspire".

I don't expect all to bow to me but I do like to inspire submission from some.
I'm not sure using charm to get your own way is always dominating the other person, I could use charm and wrap my Dad around my finger at times but it was always on his terms... so tho' he often would let me have my way I was in no doubt it was because he wanted it and not because I had manipulated or fooled him.
It could also be that the other person sees your way as making sense.

Oumae

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 12:48:46 PM

luvdragonx

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Hmmmmm....now that's something to think about. (Got a mental picture of vampires bewitching innocents

)

Ok, lets talk in absolutes for a minute. Consider the person who wants to submit completely. The word No is not an option and what the Dominant says, goes. Would they further need to be coerced into doing what the Dominant wants since the desire is already there? Better yet, is that a fulfilling situation for the Dom/me who likes to exercise those Dom/me skills?

Take me for example. I don't believe I have a Dominant mentality, yet I am quite capable of subtly persuading things to my advantage and getting what I want. Even when the other person wasn't especially amenable to the idea in the first place. It is definitely a skill, and after reading your post, I wondered if I could take that skill and switch sides. Pretty quickly I decided no. Although I take great pleasure in having my way, in a D/s setting, I don't think I would be fulfilled for very long as I would want my submissive to desire the submission, not just 'fall for it'.

Now, I think I've just made the distinction for myself. Some want to exercise dominance over the willing. Others may want to exert their will over the unwilling. Since few, if any, are perfectly consistent, there will come a time in every D/s relationship where the sub takes pause and doesn't want to do as instructed. Would the coercion come after the point of hesitation but before the moment of query or refusal? Does the hesitation harm the D/s relationship, or does the Dominant then pull out the bag-o-tricks and make it happen anyway? Some may feel there is no room for hesitation in their relationship, so would persuasion ever come into play? Here's a real kicker - that type of manipulaton comes up in discussions on topping from the bottom - is there any relation? The same animal by a different name, perhaps?

Well, LadyA, your post has given me a lot to think about and raised a lot of questions for me. I hope more people respond to your post, I'm interested in what comes out.

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 12:56:07 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

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Hmmm...wouldn't persuasion of the unaware be manipulation? And what is dominance other than masterful manipulation?

I have manipulated others all my life...when I found BDSM, I found a way to be upfront about my desire to manipulate others, and found those who wished with all their core to be manipulated.

Seems like a match made in heaven...

Taggard

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 1:19:58 PM

LadiesBladewing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

So what is it for you? Subtle persuasion or beating others into accepting? Or somewhere in between? Or something completely different?

- LA

For us, it is a combination of things. For me, it is certainly dependent to a great extent on my charisma and my capacity to persuade. I don't consider myself physically beautiful, but I have been told that I have a passion for my beliefs and for explaining my expectations and desires, and that I have a way of expressing that passion that is compelling. I have never been a 2x4-over-the-head kind of person. I am much more suited to the psychological teaching process known as "shaping".

My co-matriarch, on the other hand, doesn't have a lot of interest in or skill at subtlety, persuasion and charisma. She is direct, and primarily commands, though if she has someone who is willing to look past the sharp exterior to actually come to her for guidance, she is a patient and well-organized teacher.

There are some who consider persuasion and charisma to be "manipulative". Those people are often happier with someone direct and commanding, like my mate, SR. On the other hand, there are those who don't thrive well under the impending 2x4. They often learn better through my more subtle, guiding process.

I think that what works depends on the individual dynamics created from the people interacting together. We are fortunate that our collective provides resources for individuals who thrive under many different training, teaching, and guiding methods. Finding the Owner who guides in the way that is compatible for the way that you learn--or finding the servant who learns in the way that is compatible with the way that the Owner teaches is a big part of the challenge of finding compatible D/s relationships.

Lady Zephyr

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 1:20:35 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

Here's a real kicker - that type of manipulaton comes up in discussions on topping from the bottom - is there any relation? The same animal by a different name, perhaps?

Perhaps. I thought the very same thing. I did attempt submission in a few relationships. But I was never really successful at it because I manipulated the whole relationship from beginning to end, always getting the scenes and dynamic I wanted.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
Hmmm...wouldn't persuasion of the unaware be manipulation? And what is dominance other than masterful manipulation?

I have manipulated others all my life...when I found BDSM, I found a way to be upfront about my desire to manipulate others, and found those who wished with all their core to be manipulated.

Seems like a match made in heaven...

I'm going to be blatantly honest and say this is how I feel about it too. Though how does the saying go? "With great power comes great responsibility". Knowing that I have the power to manipulate others, I feel I must do so with a modicum of ethics.

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 1:27:03 PM

anopheles

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Persuasion is a delicate art. When it is used to the detriment of someone else, for example, persuading your wife to go to the grocery store so that you can give your mistress a quick phone call, then that's bad. But if you use the art of persuasion to convince your idiot boss to pony up a little $$$ for his employees, then that's not too bad, I don't think.

In the BDSM context though, there is a subset of the general BDSM population that are into "mindf*cks", as they are termed. They enjoy being mentally manipulated into doing things that they otherwise would submit to. Being manipulated is, for lack of a better word, something of a contest or game, along the lines of "i'll give into you if you can figure out a way to make me want to do it." Much as figuring out a jigsaw puzzle. I'm sure there are Dominants that like that type of challenge.

I would only be wagering a mildly educated guess here, but I think that most submissives/slaves don't look for this type of experience once they submit to the collar of a Dominant or Master. Most probably just want to serve, do as instructed, be punished when out of line, and be rewarded for good behavior, with the instructions being explicit and set in stone, without room for question, confusion or resistance. Their act of submission gives them pride, so manipulation isn't necessary in most cases, as NOT submitting willingly and being "tricked" in a sense, squashes the sense of satisfaction that they otherwise would have derived from that particular act.

--Anopheles

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 1:56:34 PM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anopheles
I would only be wagering a mildly educated guess here, but I think that most submissives/slaves don't look for this type of experience once they submit to the collar of a Dominant or Master. Most probably just want to serve, do as instructed, be punished when out of line, and be rewarded for good behavior, with the instructions being explicit and set in stone, without room for question, confusion or resistance. Their act of submission gives them pride, so manipulation isn't necessary in most cases, as NOT submitting willingly and being "tricked" in a sense, squashes the sense of satisfaction that they otherwise would have derived from that particular act.

--Anopheles

We'd all love for life to be that simple, but it never is, at least not for long. Your basic premise is a great one, and nothing flawed with it. It's the living out that things become not so crips and clean.

Anyway, tons of doms and subs LOVE the mind fucks and manipulations and teasing and surprises- it helps keep the relationship alive and vibrant and growing.

Life just has too many twists and turns and emotions to really make it that cookie cutter sweet.

(in reply to anopheles)

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 2:05:19 PM

anopheles

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

quote:

ORIGINAL: anopheles
I would only be wagering a mildly educated guess here, but I think that most submissives/slaves don't look for this type of experience once they submit to the collar of a Dominant or Master. Most probably just want to serve, do as instructed, be punished when out of line, and be rewarded for good behavior, with the instructions being explicit and set in stone, without room for question, confusion or resistance. Their act of submission gives them pride, so manipulation isn't necessary in most cases, as NOT submitting willingly and being "tricked" in a sense, squashes the sense of satisfaction that they otherwise would have derived from that particular act.

--Anopheles

We'd all love for life to be that simple, but it never is, at least not for long. Your basic premise is a great one, and nothing flawed with it. It's the living out that things become not so crips and clean.

Anyway, tons of doms and subs LOVE the mind fucks and manipulations and teasing and surprises- it helps keep the relationship alive and vibrant and growing.

Life just has too many twists and turns and emotions to really make it that cookie cutter sweet.

I agree with you in principle. I do know that life isn't too cookie cutter. My life is simpler now with my current relationship than it has ever been, and it still has it's occasional wild ride. I personally get a kick out of games with explicit rules to abide by, if I'm playing games with my Luvdragon, that way, she knows what to expect from me, and I know what I should expect from her. But i'm a simplicity nut, just me. Perhaps it's because i've been negatively manipulative before, I might just be turned off to the idea.

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 2:14:37 PM

ElektraUkM

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Personally, I came into a D/s relationship so I could avoid 'mindfucks'. I had enough of that with my last, non-amusing relationship. I'm all for fulfilling OUR needs and wants. No games for me, unless I'm in agreement with it from the first.

~ Elektra

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 2:17:35 PM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

Personally, I came into a D/s relationship so I could avoid 'mindfucks'. I had enough of that with my last, non-amusing relationship. I'm all for fulfilling OUR needs and wants. No games for me, unless I'm in agreement with it from the first.

~ Elektra

Well, like everything, mindfucks are just one of a zillion kinks and activities for people to enjoy or not. But plenty of people in bdsm and Ds enjoy them, long into their relationship.

(in reply to ElektraUkM)

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 2:33:09 PM

brightspot

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My MsN is a very charming and persuasive person, I witness
Her use these skills all the time with people in the "Vanilla" world,
without their knowledge.

*Brightspot

< Message edited by brightspot -- 9/5/2005 2:40:58 PM >

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/5/2005 8:32:13 PM

RiotGirl

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its all a very fine line and when i used to turn so called Dominants into submissives, it was all very subtly. It was usually a build. First its question.. can we do this.. then a suggestion.. then finally i'd just out right tell them.. do this. Strange, but honestly, its just a nack i have of getting ppl to do what i want.. and as Emerald said, have them smiling at thend, which of course is if i cared if they smiled. Though, usually them smiling, made them more pliable.. but once they were under wraps it didnt really matter. i agree, you must have ethics. And everyone always consents. Course it was all vanilla for me. Like a friend of mine, when i'd tell him i need a place to crash and would promptly kick him out of his bed.. he always had the opportunity to say no.. heck and i even offered to sleep on the couch.. tho i'm sure my compliments to the bed and how comfie i looked.. he didnt want to take me up on my offer. i am great at manipulating, but i do believe in do no harm, unless done so first.

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RE: Dominance. The art of persuasion? - 9/6/2005 5:59:04 AM

lonewolf05

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quote:

Or something completely different?

- LA

-------------------
something different.
there is no coercion. there is no such thing as persuasion. no such thing as enticing. it is merely that i NEED to serve and She NEEDS to BE served. what is it, that is not understood here?
no one is luring no one into anything. i am willing to walk in with both eyes wide open and do whatever it takes to please,...w/o sex and w/o romance love, w/o emotional entanglement....just plain old simple willing service...
wolf

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