RE: Emotional Sadists (Full Version)

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crouchingtigress -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 8:41:14 AM)

i personally struggle with the idea that there can ever be abuse in an ongoing relationship....the word abuse irks me...to me, we all make choices, we know when something feels right or feels wrong to us, we have the power to stop it, we choose not too....often it is because we think things should be differnt then they are...and we get stuck there...scarcity thinking...codependant thinking...but the truth of this life is: no one is trapped...no one is a victim....everyone makes choices.

thats my take on it...any one want to show me the error of my thinking?



TracyTaken -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 8:49:48 AM)

quote:

no one is trapped...no one is a victim....everyone makes choices.


As it applies to relationships (as opposed to criminal acts):  The last line is true, and the first two are true for citizens of the free world.  I do not see them applying globablly though. 



KatyLied -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 8:55:58 AM)

Maybe you can look at emotional sadism as that fine line.  It would be difficult for me because I don't like wide boundaries where my emotions are concerned.  Yet I can see how a sadist would have fun, for example, making me think I mean a lot less to him than I do, like he would be working hard to make me think he doesn't care when he does.  It seems like serious, high level kink to me.  But I do not consider it abusive, that's what they signed up for.  Not everyone carries the SSC flag.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 8:59:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

ORIGINAL: lauren0221

Emotional sadism, in skilled hands, can be an amazing and wonderful thing. Perhaps you are confusing it with emotional abuse?

Ahh but see, that is where things can actually become confusing. Who defines abuse? Who defines sadism?


I've experienced both, and while they can travel very parallel lines, it's been my experience that abuse crushes my spirit while emotional sadism done "well" feeds it.

The ex husband nearly ruined me.  Master balances me.  I've had to do a lot of analysis on this, actually.  What I've written on it is too long to relay here, but a gazillion hours of reflection and conversation have brought me to understand how to differentiate the two for myself.



BlueHnS -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 9:02:30 AM)

Does this mean there's another term for those who engage in emotional sadism on a healthy and inspiring level? Or have I just been doing it wrong all this time?
 
~ wants a refund on her copy of BDSM 101 for dummies  ~
 
On a more serious and less sarcastic note ...
The person you have described is a predator with a halfassed game plan. Emotional blackmail may or may not be part of thier bag of tricks which has little to do with BDSM or SSC.
While I hate to hear of any relationship gone wrong I think both people are accountable for thier participation. We all know when something just doesn't feel right to us. It doesn't mean jack that it feels right to the next person. Knowing when to apply common sense and having the ability to say no that's not right for me is just as important as knowing one is going to ( insert your favorite activity here ) and rushing up to be the first in line.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 9:06:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Maybe you can look at emotional sadism as that fine line.  It would be difficult for me because I don't like wide boundaries where my emotions are concerned.  Yet I can see how a sadist would have fun, for example, making me think I mean a lot less to him than I do, like he would be working hard to make me think he doesn't care when he does.  It seems like serious, high level kink to me.  But I do not consider it abusive, that's what they signed up for.  Not everyone carries the SSC flag.


This was a good example, and something I relate to.  Yet, the underlying message that is relayed is how much he DOES care, else he wouldn't be doing what he does.  Romance, lovey-dovey'ness, fond affection...would not fuel me as I am currently fueled.  I love the raw, unfiltered trust and emotions that come through when the other layers are removed.  And to occasionally wonder what he really does feel brings forth answers from within that strengthen me and us, and feeds my passion.




TracyTaken -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 9:28:31 AM)

Emotional torture seems like high-level kink to me too.  Not something I would enjoy, but that doesn't mean other people shouldn't.  Being called a nasty name would be emotional abuse to me (said the wimpy, overly sensitive sub).

I think we are in agreement, that you can't really define abuse from the outside looking in.  SSC came into my post as a hardline that could applied to any relationship, IMO - the idea that if the sub cannot safely leave the relationship, it is no longer safe (obviously), it is not sane, it is not consentual (obviously).  But then, it's not legal either.

Here's one, from a r/l couple I once knew.  They were vanilla, but let's pretend they weren't.  He was a mean-spirited bastard, and one day became enraged with her and killed her kitten.  Putting aside animal cruelty, could it be considered a sure case of emotional abuse toward her, regardless of any dynamics they may have agreed to regarding the relationship?



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 10:00:43 AM)

I think I'm a fluffy emotional sadist :)  I love love love making the bottom squirm, I love pushing them to do the things they love to hate and hate to love and then reminding them of it often and making them admit they love me doing it.

It's really nothing to do with whatever "it" is, it's much more knowing the mental gymnastics and flexing and submission it requires within them to get there and do it.

But I DO want them to ultimately enjoy it, I don't want actual suffering- hence the fluffy part.  I just use their inhibitions against them to take them where they can't allow themselves to go yet on their own.



lateralist1 -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 10:04:24 AM)

We are all different.
Lots of subs don't want a 'nice' Dom/me.
They want someone nasty because they think that's necessary to control them.
The problem is the stereotypical attitudes that pervade in the lifestyle.
Some subs want someone who can hurt them emotionally.
That's why they came into the lifestyle.
We are all capable of hurting another person emotionally unintentionally.
Especially if we really don't know what it's about for us and go into relationships too quickly.
Subs can also hurt Dom/mes as well as the other way around.
It's part of life. We either accept it or we never take a chance on anything.



daddyncherry -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 10:07:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

i personally struggle with the idea that there can ever be abuse in an ongoing relationship....the word abuse irks me...to me, we all make choices, we know when something feels right or feels wrong to us, we have the power to stop it, we choose not too....often it is because we think things should be differnt then they are...and we get stuck there...scarcity thinking...codependant thinking...but the truth of this life is: no one is trapped...no one is a victim....everyone makes choices.

thats my take on it...any one want to show me the error of my thinking?


Whoa, i totally have to disagree with you.

Sure, we can allow certain things to happen in our lives and need to take responsibility but what about the UMs who are abused? Are THEY not victims? i sure as fuck was! ......Then the only bf i ever let into my life (cause i learned my lesson from being his VICTIM and have never had one of those since) that abused me...i was his VICTIM...when a gun is held to you and you can't leave or you will be shot-ummm that is being a victim...if he were some faceless criminal  i would be a victim so why not in the relationship??? Then i was just on the verge of being 18..i wasn't capable of saving myself, of protecting myself from the terrorism he put me through, the complete mind fuck....i didn't have the experience to know or not know if he would make good on his threats....i almost died when i finally got the nerve to leave....because he almost shot me and himself in a public place.On Halloween i just celebrated my 20th "birthday" of the day i escaped death.

So my point it, i was a victim, no two ways around it...Does that mean that in future relationships if i saw those types of signs and continued to stay that i wouldn't have to take responsibility for some of it? No. But to do such a broad stroked statement as: no one is trapped...no one is a victim....everyone makes choices.(and i don't know your history but...) That is just such a slap in the face to all of the people and UMs who have been victims, without responsibility for any of it

i'm not trying to sound like an asshole here, but damn this is just really close to my soul and was like metal finger nails on a damn chalk board.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 10:13:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Personally, I enjoy emotional abuse.
What's more; safe sane consensual...not really my bag of tricks


An interesting choice of words......




lateralist1 -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 10:42:48 AM)

I'm with you all the way cherry.
I've been a victim most of my life.
Did I want to be sexually abused? hell no.
Did I want to be physically abused? hell no.
Did I want to spend a long time loving and caring for a man who didn't feel the same about me? hell no
Crouchingtigress you talk as if all women have choices, They do sometimes between the devil and the deep blue sea.
I have choices now but I haven't had in the past.
I was told only the other day by a man that women now want it both ways.
What he meant I'm not sure.
Yes I wanted a home a family and a career.
Why not. He does.
So did the men who abused me.
They got them. I didn't.
Because I lived with the repercussions of what they did to me.
They didn't have to. They walked away scott free.

'i'm not trying to sound like an asshole here, but damn this is just really close to my soul and was like metal finger nails on a damn chalk board.' exactly cherry well said.





Veryleggyredhead -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 11:02:15 AM)

This has been taken entirely out of context. There are many who enjoy a healthy and safe power exchange in the lifestyle, this wasn't about those that do. It also wasn't about me personally either although it would appear that more than a few chose to view it that way. When I referred to emotional sadists I referred to individuals who act as they do out of a desire to harm/abuse someone. In othe rwords abusive individuals cloaking themselves in a tops garb who were truly no where in anyone's best interests but their own. Be a relationship vanilla or bdsm the type of toxic individuals exist. My assertion is that the roles that exist make it far easier for an abuser to do what he does.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 11:07:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veryleggyredhead

This has been taken entirely out of context.


Not necessarily, given that the opening line of your OP was:

"Emotional Sadists
This term describes a type of abuser who blends well and easily into the fabric of the lifestyle."

Emotional Sadist is a term that can describe many things, however your OP gave it one absolute definition.  I think what you're seeing here in response is a sharing of many scenarios in which that term does not describe an abuser. 



IrishMist -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 11:16:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

i personally struggle with the idea that there can ever be abuse in an ongoing relationship....the word abuse irks me...to me, we all make choices, we know when something feels right or feels wrong to us, we have the power to stop it, we choose not too....often it is because we think things should be differnt then they are...and we get stuck there...scarcity thinking...codependant thinking...but the truth of this life is: no one is trapped...no one is a victim....everyone makes choices.

thats my take on it...any one want to show me the error of my thinking?

Oh I agree...in no way am I disagreeing. Only saying that for some...like me...abuse, in it's most basic form, is actually uplifting and not something that brings me down. It gives me a chance to be me; a chance to calm and center myself.
I deliberatly use the word abuse when referring to myself so that it is clear that this is what I sought; I was lucky enough to find a person who understood that and used it instead for a good reason.

Some may want to say that in reality it was closer to sadism than abuse; but I have seen enough abuse cases in my life to know the difference [:)]...and believe it or not, I have met others in real life who react to abuse in the same way that I do. It's something that they need to make things better; it's not something that 'brings them down'.
quote:

  An interesting choice of words......


Why?



Prinsexx -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 11:19:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veryleggyredhead

Emotional Sadists
This term describes a type of abuser who

Stop right there....
i am a self-confessed emotional masochist and i can asure you i know the difference between sad-masochism and abuse......
there's a little 'c' word missing in the relationship between abuse and sado-masochism and it is.....CONSENT
The relationship between an ES and an EM is intense and held together not by ropes, restraints, physical whips, canes or clamps. There isn't a shop or a web site, a TV channel or anywhere on ebay where an emotional sadist can buy their 'kit'.............you would have to be one to know where to get the tools.



Prinsexx -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 11:22:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

i personally struggle with the idea that there can ever be abuse in an ongoing relationship....the word abuse irks me...to me, we all make choices, we know when something feels right or feels wrong to us, we have the power to stop it, we choose not too....often it is because we think things should be differnt then they are...and we get stuck there...scarcity thinking...codependant thinking...but the truth of this life is: no one is trapped...no one is a victim....everyone makes choices.

thats my take on it...any one want to show me the error of my thinking?

Oh I agree...in no way am I disagreeing. Only saying that for some...like me...abuse, in it's most basic form, is actually uplifting and not something that brings me down. It gives me a chance to be me; a chance to calm and center myself.
I deliberatly use the word abuse when referring to myself so that it is clear that this is what I sought; I was lucky enough to find a person who understood that and used it instead for a good reason.

Some may want to say that in reality it was closer to sadism than abuse; but I have seen enough abuse cases in my life to know the difference [:)]...and believe it or not, I have met others in real life who react to abuse in the same way that I do. It's something that they need to make things better; it's not something that 'brings them down'.
quote:

 

i really do understand. Indeed it's the threat of walking away, it's the threat of abandonment, and yes it's very often when someone is kind and caring that most hurts and confuses me......



ownedgirlie -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 11:26:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
there's a little 'c' word missing in the relationship between abuse and sado-masochism and it is.....CONSENT


I disagree.  Victims of abuse consent to abuse all the time.  They either don't know, don't realize, or don't admit that they are being abused.  There are tragically many reasons why someone may remain in an unhealthy, detrimental, and abusive relationship.  I consented to abuse in my marriage, even though it nearly crumbled me.

It is my opinion that abuse is when one's spirit is crushed, whether he/she has consented to it or not - when someone feels worse about him/herself as a result of the relationship.



Prinsexx -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 11:32:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I've experienced both, and while they can travel very parallel lines, it's been my experience that abuse crushes my spirit while emotional sadism done "well" feeds it.

The ex husband nearly ruined me.  Master balances me.  I've had to do a lot of analysis on this, actually.  What I've written on it is too long to relay here, but a gazillion hours of reflection and conversation have brought me to understand how to differentiate the two for myself.

One extremely abusive marriage, five times in refuges. Abuse terrified me as there was an element of total randomness about it and BLAME...complete lack of responsibility on his behalf...and justified as all my fault and worse still HE DENIED it.....
but emotional sadism is to me, simply like an invisible whip....it hits, it hurts but represents an enormous self control on behalf of my Master. I understand well i believe i understand, but it's been a breakthrough week, i understand why he does it...it makes me stronger...it has to......



Prinsexx -> RE: Emotional Sadists (2/2/2008 11:34:16 AM)

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

we teach people how to treat us.



[sm=applause.gif]




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