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RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/2/2008 7:38:26 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		I have my own idealization of what slave like behavior is and much of it is counter to male chivalry. I happen to like having the door opened for me and the groceries carried. I don't have a lot of conflicts with it on an internal level, but it still presents a degree of uncomfortableness in public since the behaviors are counter cultural and tend to stand out.

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RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/2/2008 7:38:36 PM   
TracyTaken


Posts: 615
Joined: 2/1/2008
Status: offline
quote:

It might sound greedy to want both in one, but if i can manage knowing when to be a lady and when to be a whimpering, begging, masochistic slut, then i know it can be done.


LOL.  I don't think it's greedy to want both, and that's a nice comparison.

(in reply to sweetwenchie)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/2/2008 7:41:05 PM   
sweetwenchie


Posts: 1993
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline 		Thank you   

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RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/2/2008 7:42:32 PM   
TracyTaken


Posts: 615
Joined: 2/1/2008
Status: offline
quote:

I happen to like having the door opened for me and the groceries carried. I don't have a lot of conflicts with it on an internal level, but it still presents a degree of uncomfortableness in public since the behaviors are counter cultural and tend to stand out.


Yes, and get you labeled a lout, I'll bet.  I've come the decision that society will make me miserable if I care overly much what people think.

I was thinking more about an internal conflict, overcoming inhibitions.

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RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/2/2008 7:46:44 PM   
TracyTaken


Posts: 615
Joined: 2/1/2008
Status: offline
quote:

If you're talking about doms who are conflicted about being sadistic, then yes, but that doesn't seem to be the question you are asking.


TPerhaps because that wasn't the question I was asking.  If you go back to my original post and read it word-for-word, and then assume I am saying exactly what I mean to say, that should clarify it for you.

I wasn't talking specifically about impact play or any S/M stuff.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/2/2008 8:02:38 PM   
Arrrchibald


Posts: 350
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline 		Chivalry as the opposite of dominance?  Haven't heard that one before. 

Can't say I equate holding the door open for a lady with letting her take control.  

(in reply to TracyTaken)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/2/2008 8:08:28 PM   
MissHarlet


Posts: 2728
Joined: 9/11/2005
From: El Paso , TX US
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

I am not a Dom.. but a Domme. I know that many have issues thinking Dom/mes have to be big, and bad and tough. *sighs* and any sign of kindness is a weakness.

Personaly I have a code of honor. This includes treating every woman as a Lady, and every man as a Genleman. ( Amongst other things )
mercy, courage, valor, fairness, protection of the weak and the poor. being willing to give one’s life for another’s, being faithful to God, protecting the innocent, being the champion of good against evil, being generous and obeying God above all others. 

You can be a Dom/me and do this with out having any issues, and find submissives who do not find issues with it.

You do not need to be an over bearing asshole to be a Dom/me. As most people assert.

Gwyn
I totally agree with this .... I am no less a lady because I am Dominant ... and being softspoken does NOT mean I am weak.  it is nice to see another that understands .

< Message edited by MissHarlet -- 2/2/2008 8:09:40 PM >

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RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/2/2008 8:27:16 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TracyTaken
If you go back to my original post and read it word-for-word, and then assume I am saying exactly what I mean to say, that should clarify it for you.

Wow, girl.  If so many people are "misunderstanding" you, you might want to state your question in different words.  In my own case, I posted a joke that was absolutely 100% serious.  The thing can break two ways -- either he can decide to meet your needs better, because you communicate them in a mature way with no mixed signals (which is LuckyAlbatross's point) -- or he go all into himself and his own pleasure.  (My bitchin Camaro reference.)

If you are so unwilling to restate your position so it is easier to understand, I bet it's hard for the man in your life to comprehend you.  Hence your problem.  Fix *you*.  Only he can fix him.

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RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/2/2008 9:14:20 PM   
TracyTaken


Posts: 615
Joined: 2/1/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Wow, girl.  If so many people are "misunderstanding" you, you might want to state your question in different words.  


I don't think "so many" are.  Mainly the one attempting some kind of cyber mind reading doesn't understand, but that's understandable.

quote:

In my own case, I posted a joke that was absolutely 100% serious. 


It made no sense to me, so I didn't comment.

quote:

The thing can break two ways -- either he can decide to meet your needs better, because you communicate them in a mature way with no mixed signals (which is LuckyAlbatross's point) -- or he go all into himself and his own pleasure.  (My bitchin Camaro reference.)


Which also has nothing to do with what I asked.  Nothing is going to break.  We've been together for decades, and I don't think communicating in a mature way is a problem for us.  But then, we know better than to try to read each other's minds, let alone a total stranger's, or jump to assumptions.  Perhaps when you are more mature, you will be able to see the wisdom in that.

quote:

If you are so unwilling to restate your position so it is easier to understand, I bet it's hard for the man in your life to comprehend you. 


The two men who answered this thread did seem understand what I was talking about, as opposed to assuming it was talking about SM or whining about not getting my way or whatever.  But then, it was to them that the thread was addressed, so maybe that's not surprising.

quote:

Hence your problem.


Thanks for your input on my "problem."  I wasn't aware I had a problem.  I thought I was starting a discussion.
My mistake.  With that I will abandon this thread to you and LA since you are clearly experts on me, my relationship, what it's like to be raised a man, etc.

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/2/2008 9:17:40 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Um.... I'm a guy.  And I know lots of people who have been together for decades and are in unhealthy, unhappy relationships.  I hope things work out for you.  If you're so ticked at me, well.... might want to work on those coping skills!

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/2/2008 11:01:12 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TracyTaken
Perhaps because that wasn't the question I was asking.  If you go back to my original post and read it word-for-word, and then assume I am saying exactly what I mean to say, that should clarify it for you.

I wasn't talking specifically about impact play or any S/M stuff.


Did you read the rest of that post?  It doesn't seem like you did.

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RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/3/2008 1:21:55 AM   
kinkypuppy2


Posts: 345
Joined: 11/4/2007
Status: offline 		There is a difference in commanding respect and giving courtesy.

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RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/3/2008 1:54:07 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TracyTaken

I was wondering if any resident Dominants have struggled with the idea of chivalry as an opposite to dominance.  Mine has and it has taken/is still taking some effort on both sides to overcome it.  By chivalry, I don’t mean beheading green knights and slaying dragons, but:   The idea that a gentleman is to serve a lady, and after her all other ladies.  Most especially in this category is a general gentleness and graciousness to all women. (Wiki’s general definition, but it works)   If so, how did you/do you deal with it?


Actually I try to give her all that she desires, besides beeing her Dom. In some way you could call it serving.
( I hold the door open, take her jacket, hold her chair when she sits down etc). It is possible to combine.
In a relation there is always a kind of "mutual"serving.....just different from serving as sub/slave to a Dom.


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RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/3/2008 5:02:23 AM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		Albatross, this is so true! And it goes beyond "the lifestyle", whatever that is - I recall an ex accusing me in tears that "you don't love me" because I wasn't jealous after finding out she was having an affair. Thanks for saying that so succinctly... 


----------------
"Do one thing every day that scares you" -- Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/3/2008 10:11:12 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TracyTaken

I was wondering if any resident Dominants have struggled with the idea of chivalry as an opposite to dominance.  Mine has and it has taken/is still taking some effort on both sides to overcome it.  By chivalry, I don’t mean beheading green knights and slaying dragons, but:   The idea that a gentleman is to serve a lady, and after her all other ladies.  Most especially in this category is a general gentleness and graciousness to all women. (Wiki’s general definition, but it works)   If so, how did you/do you deal with it?

Frankly... no.  And I wouldn't go by Wiki's definition much either.  I've three books in my personal library on being a gentleman by John Bridges (in addition to Emily Post's 17th edition of Etiquette), and no where in any of them is there any mention of serving women.  There is a great deal on manners, behavior, etiquette, how to dress, how to speak, how to live, how to treat servants, how to tip, how to be gracious, how to be a good host, how to do a great many things... even how to tie a windsor knot.  But it does not require one to be gracious at all times nor to all women... in fact, there are times a gentleman should not be gracious.

I think your dominant's problem may stem from too many romanticized ideals... some of them bad fiction, and unrealistic expectations.

I am a dominant, which means you may expect me to exert my Will over any situation in which I desire my expectations to be satisfied.  I am also a gentleman, which means my behavior is generally gracious and cordial except where circumstances require it to be otherwise.  I can be quite polite in how I exert my Will.  I can also be very demanding in my expections of polite behavior from others.

Rather than an obsquious servant some "modern" definitions paint, you might find that precisely because I am a dominant gentleman... I can actually be more demanding in the service I expect.  After all, a gentleman not only has standards, but they should be of a higher quality as well.

Consider it food for thought.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/3/2008 10:13:05 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I don't think they usually struggle with the idea of whether to be a good guy or an asshole, I think they struggle trying to hook up with chicks who give completely mixed signals, unrealistic masculine ideals and then reject them on their own irrationality.

Amen and hallelujah

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/3/2008 2:18:54 PM   
LordShadow


Posts: 172
Joined: 7/13/2004
Status: offline 		I once had the problem with the supposed conflict between how I was raised and what I thought was expected of me.
That conflict got resolved when i quit worrying about what others expected of me and just started being me.  I can be a gentleman, if my Brothers look down on me for this, then they are not truly my Brothers. And as far as what society thinks of me, weeellllll......lmao
The answer in this is simply be who/what you are, a Master can open a door  for his wench, help her with her coat, carry heavy stuff, help her with chores... or not. What makes him a Master is his ability to run his Home HIS way, screw everything else. 

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RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/4/2008 5:49:21 AM   
ExtremeOwnerIL


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline 		- Fast response -

Civility and manners are the mark of someone in *complete* control of themselves and very aware of their surroundings. In my opinion, that implies someone who I'd like to emulate.

"Service" can be defined in many different ways. To me, he ultimate goal of service is to make someone else's life better, more convenient or some satisfying through someone else's actions. I don't see civility and manners being a specific form of submissive service. In fact, I find that the *more* civil/mannerly I am, the more I feel a positive power exchange to me.

Control myself first, then I control others.

Kindest regards,
EO


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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/4/2008 7:54:54 AM   
ProlificNeeds


Posts: 1061
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TracyTaken

I was wondering if any resident Dominants have struggled with the idea of chivalry as an opposite to dominance.  Mine has and it has taken/is still taking some effort on both sides to overcome it.  

I don't see how Dominance and chivalry are opposite at all. I do however understand how being raised with a skewed view of the world might make one think they were opposite or contradictory.
For some reason this reminds me of a scene in Schindlers List, where Schindler tries to explain to Amon (The crazy nazi guy who likes to kill without seeming reason) that power is forgiveness, not killing. He didn't get it, he couldn't because of the way he was raised in society. He tried it out even at Schindlers request, but just didn't get it.
Anyone who has a learned social behavior and system must then -unlearn- that system and logic before a new one can take it's place. A long process indeed, sometimes one that is never complete. I'm glad you two are working still on such a task as reconciling that dominance and chivalry are not at odds. I think however this is not a normal circumstance, many dom's I have met are very gentlemanly and moreover take it upon themselves to be responsible citizens of a community. Watching over not only their sub but when possible over their surroundings and community. Doesn't make them exceedingly noble or somehow perfect, just seems that chivalry isn't as dead as some people think.

quote:


By chivalry, I don’t mean beheading green knights and slaying dragons, but:   The idea that a gentleman is to serve a lady, and after her all other ladies.  Most especially in this category is a general gentleness and graciousness to all women. (Wiki’s general definition, but it works)   If so, how did you/do you deal with it?


Disagree there. Chivalry is never about serving a woman. I think chivalry is about integrity and standing up for what is right, and not for yourself, but for the sake of others. Holding doors and pulling chairs is just a formality. I enjoy holding doors pulling chairs and taking coats, doesn't mean I'm full of chivalry.

To the main question I can;t say as I've seen anyone struggle with dominance as an opposite to chivalry, as the two never seem to be opposite at all.
As LuckyAlbatross said, I have seen some Dom's struggle with the two because they are not sure if they should come off as more 'in charge' or simply go with courtesy. This is often due to mixed singals from others who try to demand a gentleman and a monster at the same time, not because they have internal conflict of their own, they're simply too concerned with trying to understand/conform to what they think OTHER PEOPLE expect/want.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Between Sir Gawain and Master John - 2/4/2008 8:10:33 AM   
MrrPete


Posts: 614
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		Since I was raised to be a gentleman first...It is part of who I am.
I discovered mydominace later in my life

So, to me, being chivalrous is second nature. Here's the difference.

I will still open the car door but reach in and pull you by the hair.
I'll open the car door and goose you as you get in.

I drive a van so that makes it easier to do the above.

I'm still a gentleman but I have learned I don't have to be so
gentle all the time. :)


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Profile   Post #: 40
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