a submissives control?? (Full Version)

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angelkel -> a submissives control?? (7/11/2004 7:41:07 PM)

I would like as much imput on this questions as possible.....

How much control should a submissive have over a D/s relationship? Should a submissive be able to say what she is willing to do on a daily/weekly basis? Is a submissive allowed to pick her Master's friends?

If you know of website(s) with an articles on this please share them.

(I'm asking for the simple reason I believe my best friend who is a Dominant is being manipulated by a woman, but because she is so jealous of me he won't listen to much I say on the matter. Help, I don't want to lose my best friend, but she is pushing me out of his life.)

Thanks ahead of time, kel



MizSuz -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/11/2004 8:03:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelkel

I would like as much imput on this questions as possible.....

How much control should a submissive have over a D/s relationship? Should a submissive be able to say what she is willing to do on a daily/weekly basis? Is a submissive allowed to pick her Master's friends?

If you know of website(s) with an articles on this please share them.

(I'm asking for the simple reason I believe my best friend who is a Dominant is being manipulated by a woman, but because she is so jealous of me he won't listen to much I say on the matter. Help, I don't want to lose my best friend, but she is pushing me out of his life.)

Thanks ahead of time, kel



The power exchange dynamic is worked out between the parties involved. There are no hard and fast rules and to try to find some to insist they should be applied across the board simply to defend your position will, in my opinion, undermine your position.

As for your friend, I would recommend being patient and accepting that he is trying to make his own happiness. Be happy for him, even if you are fearful for him and yourself. Tell him you are fearful. Then be willing to bow out and let him work it out. Either he and she will find a good middle ground that may enable him to continue being your friend; they will fall apart and he will be back; or, he will walk away and you may come to realize that either he wasn't your friend to begin with or that people change and sometimes that takes us away from each other.

Are you more concerned for his well being, or more concerned for your own happiness in your friendship with him? Sometimes we have to let go of those we love so they can fly. To hold on for our own sake is not love or friendship, it is selfishness. Your fear, however, is valid and deserves to be shared with him. But you have no business trying to sabotage his relationship for your own agenda. If I were the dominant in this situation I would listen carefully to you about your fears because you are my friend and I care, even if I couldn't do anything other than listen to alleviate your fear. But if you were trying to undo my relationship because you couldn't deal with the potential change in our friendship I would walk away from you as being more selfish than I care to have in my life.



Thanatosian -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/11/2004 8:08:40 PM)

are you sure he's not the sub and she's not the dom?????? danger will robins danger[:D]

as to how much control the submissive should have in a D/s relationship, that should have been covered in the initial negotiations, along with how often she is allowed to say what she is willing to do/not do

and as for picking her Masters friends, well, if he is allowing this he doesnt sound very dominant to me

I am hoping that they are both VERY new to the lifestyle, otherwise I foresee troubled times ahead for them

Apply usual caveats here



Leonidas -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/11/2004 8:44:24 PM)

Hello angel.

He shouldn't be listening to you, and his sub is right to resent your input. The quickest way for you to lose your friend is to continue to introject yourself where you have no business. If the relationship suceeds, you will be seen as the naysayer that tried to break them up. If the relationship fails, it is as likely as not that he will blame your interference, at least in part, for the failure. I assume your friend is sane, and of age. Let him be a big boy, and learn his lessons. If she is a manipulative little bitch, and he really is a dominant wired man (isn't prone to like being pussy whipped), he'll figure it out soon enough. New pussy can blind a man, but that effect is only temporary. When the effect wears off, he'll wise up, if that is in fact what he needs to do.

In the meantime, be a willing friend and talk to him about any other subject . Don't even engage with him if he brings it up (and he might) unless you want to fall prey to the "why did I listen to you" syndrome that I descibed above. About the most that you should do, and only if he asks, is to point him toward resources like this forum where other, experienced dominants might field his questions directly. All of this goes double if you have some designs on this man (which my agenda-o-meter buzzing in my ear suggests to me that you might).

Hope this helps.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas



Ladybug19 -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/11/2004 9:21:10 PM)

i do agree with Thanatosian in that they need to figure out who is dom and who is sub but also that you must be careful about trying to step in as you could lose a friend that way and if it is a bad relationship he will need you in the end so in your friends best intrest as well as yours know that you are on thin ice and walk acorddingly
Slave Dee



Sundew02 -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/11/2004 9:23:50 PM)

Look closer into the colarme posts. Do not dismiss the Ask a Mistress section. Read what has been written there. All of D/s is about individuals, not a set protocal. No, a submissive should not direct a Dominants friends, but neither should a submissive friend direct a dominant. Relax, look to what you want out of life, enjoy what you are. Seek your own happiness. Sundew



Sinergy -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/11/2004 9:24:49 PM)

Hello,

What Thanatosian, et al, have said.

Would like to add my comment "You can lead a person to knowledge but you cannot make them think." I agree with the suggestion that you keep your nose out of their relationship and let them figure out the details, unless specifically asked.

And even then I would speak in my usual mindless drivel...

Sinergy



angelkel -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/12/2004 1:40:50 AM)

Okay, to summarize what you all said it was either stay away and keep your mouth shut OR is he really a Dominant..

I tried to keep my post short in hopes that more would respond but I see I left out several important details from the responses. Let me start by saying I am a submissive female who a year and 8 months ago had never had the opportunity to play r/t put met this Dom (20+ yrs in lifestyle) and was finally able to play. I was his for a very short time and we both realized we "worked" much better in a friend relationship where we would just play when we both wanted to. (Which was everytime I could possibly drive down to visit, I live 3 hours away.) Well 3 months into all of this he starts a relationship with this other "submissive" (I use that term very lightly for her... manipulative kinky person fits better. And that isn't just my saying, a few Dommes/Doms have pointed this out to him.) He tried and tried to keep us seperate, but she demanded she meet me and even wanted to play with me or she was leaving... in efforts to keep her, he had me come down at the same time. Disatorous and her jealousy exploded and since that wasn't enough, we had to try it 2 more times. (I was fulfilling the kind, caring friend that he could talk to about anything, and she was someone he could play hard with and get sex from and couldn't really trust with life details.) This has been going on for over a year now.

So I say all of that to say, every time I try to disappear (as painful as it would be to lose him) he won't let me. He says he has fought to long to lose me now and that I'm not going anywhere. But I'm having a really hard time trusting him and her evil twisted actions that constantly are working against me. Not to mention the emotional turmoil I'm dealing with from all of it.

So I was hoping for some answers on when a Dom might get over the sexual stuff and realize she isn't worth sex, but is all about misery loves company? Or when a Dom will likely give up letting her have so much control? He says all the time he is tired of it, but he just won't her let go. Or when a Dom might realize the sub isn't suppose to be the one in charge and that she isn't suppose to change her limits weekly to suite her mood.

I really don't want to lose my best friend, nor the only real Dom that I have found (so far) that is somewhat local to accept that I'm a big woman. My search for a true Master seems neverending and I just function so much better after I get an opportunity to visit subspace.

angelkel

(If anyone could offer some advice... I could also be reached on yahoo messanger at kel_on_da_loose, but make sure I know who you are or you will get ignored.)



MrThorns -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/12/2004 7:36:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelkel

I would like as much imput on this questions as possible.....

How much control should a submissive have over a D/s relationship? Should a submissive be able to say what she is willing to do on a daily/weekly basis? Is a submissive allowed to pick her Master's friends?

If you know of website(s) with an articles on this please share them.

(I'm asking for the simple reason I believe my best friend who is a Dominant is being manipulated by a woman, but because she is so jealous of me he won't listen to much I say on the matter. Help, I don't want to lose my best friend, but she is pushing me out of his life.)

Thanks ahead of time, kel


I'll try and answer these one at a time...

How much control over the relationship should a submissive have? That is based on what was negotiated between the two of them.

Should a submissive be able to say what she is willing to do on a weekly/daily basis? Again..it's done during the negotiation process...and I would certainly hope that she would say something about what she is willing to do.

Is a submissive allowed to pick her Master's friends. Now honestly... this seems like such a loaded question. Is she picking his friends? Or are you making an assumption?

As far as the reasons you are asking... I'm unsure of your place in their relationship. I understand that he is your friend, but he is an adult and able to make his own decisions. It's really not your place to get involved with his relationships. (Imho)

~Thorns



Sinergy -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/12/2004 9:03:16 AM)

quote:

So I was hoping for some answers on when a Dom might get over the sexual stuff and realize she isn't worth sex, but is all about misery loves company? Or when a Dom will likely give up letting her have so much control? He says all the time he is tired of it, but he just won't her let go. Or when a Dom might realize the sub isn't suppose to be the one in charge and that she isn't suppose to change her limits weekly to suite her mood.


Hello,

I am sorry for the pain you are feeling. This thread reminds me oddly of letters written to Dear Abby where the mistress writes and says things like "He has been telling me for 15 years how unhappy he is with his marraige and he is going to leave his wife and..." Her usual response back was always "If he has not left her already, he has been using you for his own pleasures and is unlikely to leave his wife." Of course, she would usually then bag on the woman for going along with it, but I am not going to go there.

It sounds to me like he wants to have his cake and eat it too, and part of his attitudes towards you are to ensure he has a backup play partner should the other one go sour.

You are in the awkward situation of either living in the relationship as it is currently set up, or leaving. Nobody else can make that choice for you, but I personally would not expect him to change anything any time soon. He has the best of both worlds right now, and you are the one who is having trouble existing in that place. I would recommend you reevaluate your priorities and decide what you are willing to give up.

As a more general thought, I base my evaluations of people on their actions. Put aside what he says, and scrutinize his behaviors, because there is where you will find his true motives.

I dont see this as being a BDSM issue, this is a human relationship issue with a BDSM label attached to it.

Good luck in whatever choice you end up making.

Sinergy



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/12/2004 9:07:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelkel
So I was hoping for some answers on when a Dom might get over the sexual stuff and realize she isn't worth sex, but is all about misery loves company? Or when a Dom will likely give up letting her have so much control? He says all the time he is tired of it, but he just won't her let go. Or when a Dom might realize the sub isn't suppose to be the one in charge and that she isn't suppose to change her limits weekly to suite her mood.


Hmm...many questions. Let's try to tackle a few.

I don't think any man ever gets over the "sexual stuff" if they are the kind who is inclined to the "sexual stuff" to begin with. Waiting for him to stop thinking with the little head might not be the wisest choice of action. Really good sex can be worth a bit of misery (and a bit of misery might be worth really good sex). *smile*

In the right BDSM relationship, neither party really has control. In a phrase that will stick with me as long as I am in this lifestyle, Lawrence wrote of the fact that the even the dominant "submits to the dynamic." Have you considered that he enjoys the dynamic he has created with this other woman?

As far as a sub changing her limits, that will happen. People grow and change. One of the biggest problems I have with most contracts is that there are "for life" contracts and provide no outlet for change and growth.

As has been said before, if you are just a friend, be a friend. Sometimes the most friendly thing you can do is step aside.

Yours,
Taggard



Estring -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/12/2004 9:35:53 AM)

He doesn't seem to be handling the situation well at all. He is definitely not controlling it. I don't think this will end well at all. You need to decide if you will go down with the ship or not.



melycious -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/12/2004 11:48:16 AM)

~as always.. this is my opinion based on my experiences and knowledge.. as with all things.. its like AA, take what you need and leave the rest..

to be honest angel.. i dont think you are having a D/s issue, this is a human being issue, it has nothing to do with D/s..but everything to do with how you perceive your role in his life and your need to protect him from what you see as harm. That is what friends do, we protect, comfort, educate and sometimes, watch our friends flounder.

There is nothing worse then being able to see what you think is a bad fit for someone, manipulative behavior etc and then to not be able to stop it.. but ... in the end, the reason you choose him as your friend, is because you saw something in him, that made you feel he was intelligent, giving, caring and able to have a relationship, those things have not gone away because he choose this person, you need to have faith in him, that the things that attracted you to him, are still there.

The other thing i would say, and its very hard without more information about your "type" of relationship with him, is do you have feelings for him, that you do keep under control but which color the way you see him?

As my bestest friend says, there are 2 sides to every story and then there is the truth, this is even true in our mind, what we do to make things work for us, may in fact not be what they are?

I guess the last thing i would say is, and perhaps this is a cruel thought on the matter, if you are best friends, and he sees you in the same best friend light that you see him, he also would care, protect and nurture you, and would stop someone from hurting you regardless of his connection with other people. If you have told him how this makes you feel and he disregards it, perhaps he does not have the same feelings towards your relationship that you do.............. and this happens all the time..

As i said earlier, this is not a D/s issue, but a human issue, based on folks character and morals, she cant push you out of his life, unless he allows it......that is a person issue, and has nothing to do with being dom or sub.

good luck angel

mely



ScorpioMaster -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/12/2004 5:50:32 PM)

angelkel the other issue if that your friend sub is not secure with her self and fear he will be taken away by you. The other issue is that it sound like she is toping from the bottom and that is not good. What you need to do is try to let her know you are not a threat but that may not work. So many people try to modify the meaning the lifestyle. Good luck



SherriA -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/12/2004 6:20:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScorpioMaster

The other issue is that it sound like she is toping from the bottom and that is not good.


Ya know, if the people involved have no problem with "topping from the bottom" then who is everyone else to pass judgement on them. Topping from the bottom does NOT have to be a negative situation. For some of us it works quite well.

Sorry, but I'm more than a little tired of hearing everyone slam wiitid and what my partners and I enjoy.

If the "dominant" in question isn't complaining about his partner "topping from the bottom", then why doesn't everyone rush to make judgements about the appropriateness of their interactions? Since when do adults not get to make those decisions for themselves?



angelkel -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/12/2004 7:57:19 PM)

SherriA,

With all do respect, Scorpio was not trying to target what works or doesn't work for you and if it is right or wrong for you. Scorpio is a friend of mine and I asked him to look at my post and give me some more insight. And I know he and I both believe what ever works for the couple is how it should be.

So next time before you think the post revolves around you, maybe you should read all the context and notice it is one submissive (ME) needing some outside advice.

angelkel



SherriA -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/12/2004 8:10:58 PM)

I wasn't talking about me. I was using me as an example of situations where "topping from the bottom" doesn't have to be a bad thing. Everyone seems to have jumped on the bandwagon that there's a problem with the relationship between your friend and his partner. But if your friend and his partner are happy with things, who are the rest of us to judge? It's not our relationship, so we don't get a vote. That was my point, perhaps not made as clearly as I had intended.



angelkel -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/12/2004 8:30:16 PM)

Okay, I understand your point now. My friend nor his partner are happy with how things are. She threatens to leave him at least once a week and he will give into something and she hasn't left him yet. (And him contantly giving in to her is where our friendship is getting damaged because he will take something away from our friendship, just to shut her up.) He argues with her constantly, but for some reason thinks she is going to miracously be the submissive he wants even though it has been well over a year now of the same crap time and time again.

Thanks for clarifing SherriA and sorry if it seemed I was jumping on you.

angelkel



SherriA -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/12/2004 8:44:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelkel

<snip> she hasn't left him yet.

<snip> thinks she is going to miracously be the submissive he wants even though it has been well over a year


And despite all the problems everyone sees with the relationship, they're still together and still making compromises for each other. That suggests to me that there's *something* there that they both feel is worth holding on to.

I agree with mely that it doesn't appear to be a d/s issue, but rather a people issue. I think she had some good advice in her post, worth going back to read again. (I just did.)



melycious -> RE: a submissives control?? (7/13/2004 5:10:50 AM)

with a few exceptions, people stay in relationships, jobs, communities for a reason.. perhaps its not healthy, but they do it for a reason, often its to not deal with other issues..but sometimes, its because dysfunction is the way they choose to run their life.

Angel, i think you need to perhaps take a step back, and see that this man is doing you wrong for a couple reasons..

1. a man/woman who has been in a prevoius relationship with you, who chooses to continue to tell you about the bad parts in his new relationship is using you, for his own needs and without thought for yours....

2. he is playing on your desire for him, your self esteem to put you in the lower position, so that he CAN feel dominate (again.. i am stating these things based ONLY on what you wrote here, if your info is wrong or totally 1 sided,its not valid) There are some folks who can only feel dominate in their life if they make someone feel smaller or belittle them or make them dependent.. in my mind this is NOT D/s... its an outplay of that persons low selfesteem and feelings of loss of control


in addition, i know lots of womem of size in the lifestyle, while its true that that does not appeal to everyone, neither do thin women appeal to everyone, or big breasted, and and and....

here is my best advice......

sit down, write an email to the Dom in question.... state your concerns.. NOT your emotions and then say .... while i value our friendship, i find that i am too close emotionally to act as your sounding board about your concerns in your present relationship. I wish you both the best in figuring out how it will work for you. I look forward to talking with you about ideas, general questions about bdsm etc,.

THEN, make a rule for yourself and go out and make a new friend both in and out of the lifestyle , preferably in RT not online, or a combination of both, althou i realize this may be a hard thing to do in some areas.. and begin to make friends, without looking for a relationship..

*grins* in my work life..i call this the 30 new aquitances in 30 days (i borrowed from AA's 30 meetings in 30 days), you dont have to marry them, or even perhaps see them again.. but to sit down and do lunch, or a walk in the park whatever, you will make new friends.. AND it will keep you for focusing too much on the friend who is in another place at the moment

mely



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