RE: Religion and Politics (Full Version)

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Sanity -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 8:03:40 AM)

I think that Joseph Stalin quite possibly had the answers you seek. You know, what to do about the evils of religion, and differing points of view, and all that rot.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3


I think religion is by far the worst political evil there is in the world. Seriously.

A justification of your own barbaric desires in the extreme cases. Does it really matter if the true meaning of religion is good will to all men if it can be misinterpreted to mean non believers must die?
 
Of coarse people are free to believe what they like as long as they don’t spread their beliefs, I think that is fair. I motion that we outlaw the spreading of individual religious beliefs because the word of god surely is so strong it can survive without humans spreading it right? Why does any human need to be a mouthpiece for god anyway? Is this god so weak he needs mere humans to spread his word to one another.
 




SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 8:06:04 AM)

Aye them were the days indeed.[8|]



KenDckey -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 8:09:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

If a man is talking religion he is reaching into your pockets for money, talking about moral fortitude while snorting coke and sleeping with your wife, and claiming that god told him to send your children to die in a resource war in a foreign land.

But god told him to, so hands off! He's a man of god...



I don't think that is quite true either.  If it were, then, just by your response, would mean that you are describing yoruself.   Least that is my take.


hmmm,  I would think more: Jim Jones, Charles Manson, Jim Baker...
 
and a great post btw




ty.   I think JOnes, Manson, Baker, et all weren't religious.    They were great con men who prayed on people.   But I agree,  they are just nuts.



LadyHathor -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 8:20:12 AM)

They all weren't religious by your standards, but what they had to say appealed to people as they did have followings--again we come to the definitions of:
 
religion
 
spirituality
 
moral character
 
smiles, an emotional debate for sure.



KenDckey -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 8:22:37 AM)

LOL   I thought it would make for interestign discourse.



bipolarber -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 9:32:19 AM)

Imagine a candidate getting up behind a poduim, and saying to the people and the cameras:

"Ladies and gentlemen, I have cancelled the bill to create an economic stimulus package. Instead, I have written a letter to Santa Claus at the North Pole, and have asked him to bring us all an additional $600 worth of cash this year. Thus, we will all become wealthier, and we'll be able to spend that money after the holidays in order to bring the economy back to health."

How does that differ, do you suppose from:

"I have prayed to God about this "Intelligent Design vs evolution" question. I believe that we should teach both in the classrooms of America, so that children can decide for themselves what the controversy is all about. I'm sure with this added education, America will remain a highly competative nation in the world arena." (This is the actual Bush response to the I.D. lawsuit in Kansas.)



CuriousLord -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 9:47:20 AM)

To have a religion is to view the world in a fundamentally wrong way.  It effects a person's morals, prejustices, views, ways of thinking, priorities, etc.  It also shows the individual's willingness to hide from reality in favor of just pretending things are better than they really are.  None of these traits are desirable to many, so religion's an 'ick' sort of thing for a leader.



TheHeretic -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 9:54:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

To have a religion is to view the world in a fundamentally wrong way. 



         I think you are working from a very narrow view of what "religion" is, Curious.  Having a system of beliefs about how and why the universe works the way it does, is not synonymous with any specific sect or set of practices.



CuriousLord -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 10:00:41 AM)

I'd disagree.  Hoping this won't turn into a big thing about religion again, but it does alter one's fundamental perception of the universe; I'm not sure how one could suggest it doesn't.

Say, Christians.  Most all believe in Heaven, right?  That's a huge fundamental difference.  Me?  When I die, I expect that to be it, so murder is a grevious crime to me.  I'm not even sure why Christians really give a damn about death.  I suspect that they get Heaven's made up, but in a government where life is taken to be immortal, murder isn't as big of a deal.  People starving to death in foreign countries is just, "Meh.  They'll go to Heaven and have food there."  The value of life just drops.  (As one example.)



KenDckey -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 10:09:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I'd disagree.  Hoping this won't turn into a big thing about religion again, but it does alter one's fundamental perception of the universe; I'm not sure how one could suggest it doesn't.

Say, Christians.  Most all believe in Heaven, right?  That's a huge fundamental difference.  Me?  When I die, I expect that to be it, so murder is a grevious crime to me.  I'm not even sure why Christians really give a damn about death.  I suspect that they get Heaven's made up, but in a government where life is taken to be immortal, murder isn't as big of a deal.  People starving to death in foreign countries is just, "Meh.  They'll go to Heaven and have food there."  The value of life just drops.  (As one example.)


I disagree with your assessment, but you are entitled to your belief, but what I am sensing is that if anyone has a religious belief of any kind that should be a disqualifier for the political arena. And the religion is pretty much unimportant.  Is that correct?



CuriousLord -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 10:16:40 AM)

Not such much disqualified as much as having a point against them.  Everything has to be taken into account.



TheHeretic -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 10:17:31 AM)

       Christians don't only believe in Heaven, Curious, they also believe in Hell (or accept the metaphors as convenient).  What they believe in is that it matters how you live your life, because there will be a form of judgement.

      You say holding an atheistic view (which I consider just as much a religion) gives you a higher value of life, but wouldn't it also give you carte blanche to live a completely amoral life, since there would never be any justice?



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 10:22:37 AM)

It is a common mistake to link morality and religion it implies that people with no religion have no sense of morality.
 
The most sickening thing about the Catholic religion from my viewpoint is it doesn't matter what you do as long as you repent. What kind of justice is that to a victim of crime? He said sorry for killing your family member, oh that is OK then.



CuriousLord -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 10:27:18 AM)

I'm not entirely sure why, but it seems most athiests are very nice, humane people.  I've become fond of discussions with the Ph.D.'s in my Physics department (they hold discussions every Friday afternoon) largely because I can escape popular superstitions for a while.

It's different when you talk to atheists.  Life has a value, and no one's concerned with "final judgement".  They're all nice people who have given their lives to promoting a science that will end up helping everyone, though they don't believe any great power's going to reward them for it in the end.

I'm still not sure where atheists in general draw their morality from, but I have a feeling that religion was only a substitute for, and not the orginal source of, morality.

Edit:  To clarify, I'm referring to the atheists I've known, not all atheists in general.



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 10:29:08 AM)

Money has its own reward[8|]



CuriousLord -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 10:34:10 AM)

True, but some of these guys have Ph.D.'s and are pulling in ~50 kUSD/yr.  I'd be pissed if I had stopped at a BS and gotten less than 80!

Professors do make a hell of a lot more than gradeschool teachers, but it's still subpar whencompared to the private sector (in general).



DomKen -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 12:08:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      Christians don't only believe in Heaven, Curious, they also believe in Hell (or accept the metaphors as convenient).  What they believe in is that it matters how you live your life, because there will be a form of judgement.

     You say holding an atheistic view (which I consider just as much a religion) gives you a higher value of life, but wouldn't it also give you carte blanche to live a completely amoral life, since there would never be any justice?

xtians care about how they live their lives? Maybe some, catholics may, but most protestant sects have as a basic tenet of their faith that as long as the person is baptized/saved/accepts Jesus into their heart/etc. that person is going to heaven. No matter what they've done before that time or what the do after that moment.

I, as an atheist, view all life as precious. There are no souls and no afterlife rewards. Therefore I do my best to harm no one and improve the lot of those around me as much as possible. I give to charities that I've researched that actually alleviate suffering not those who hand out bibles or who pray over the suffering. Microlending organizations and HfH are my choices right now.



TheHeretic -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 12:19:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

xtians care about how they live their lives?



          Are you that afraid of them?

        Christianity teaches that God offers forgiveness through the Blood of Jesus Christ.  I'm not aware of any sect that says you can use that as a blank check for continued amoral behavior.



Alumbrado -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 12:21:09 PM)

Actions speak louder than words.



KenDckey -> RE: Religion and Politics (2/3/2008 12:21:31 PM)

And DomKen   I always thought plants and animals are food.



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