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RE: Religion and Politics - 2/4/2008 11:54:27 AM

thompsonx

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KenDckey:
This is from the SCOTUS decision you posted above.

quote:

Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa.

This is the statement that I responded to.

quote:

The way I see it, is that the 1st Amendment seperated the state from the church. Not necessarily the other way around

So it would appear that your own cite verifies that not only is the state separated from the church but the church is also to be separated from the state.
thompson

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RE: Religion and Politics - 2/4/2008 12:12:00 PM

KenDckey

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But when has a church, although I can understand that there might be some that I am unaware of, affected the state? I have heard opinions expressed by church members, but I don't consider the expression of opinion a violation of seperation.

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RE: Religion and Politics - 2/4/2008 12:24:25 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

But when has a church, although I can understand that there might be some that I am unaware of, affected the state? I have heard opinions expressed by church members, but I don't consider the expression of opinion a violation of seperation.

KenDckey:
This is a theoretical discussion about whether the state and church should be separated,not one in which I stated that any church had.
I would hazard that when any church spokesperson advocates laws based on church teachings we are dangerously close.
thompson

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RE: Religion and Politics - 2/4/2008 2:12:52 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

But when has a church, although I can understand that there might be some that I am unaware of, affected the state? I have heard opinions expressed by church members, but I don't consider the expression of opinion a violation of seperation.

Everson makes quite clear that the wall of seperation goes both ways. It is the basis for all modern jurisprudence on the matter. Anyone telling you that it is one way is deceiving you. A little research would likely bring you back to the whipping boy of the moment David Barton since he has been touring the country telling people this lie for better than 20 years.

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RE: Religion and Politics - 2/4/2008 3:27:04 PM

OrionTheWolf

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There is no way to know with 100% certainty, but you can look at someones track read of how they vote on issues, and what they have said over the years. If they change their position, did they seem to do it for political currency, or for a sincere change of mind?

This is why the integrity of the person, is just as important as their stance on the issues. I can respect and follow a leader that has integrity, even if I do not agree with their methods (socialistic or conservative). What I believe the people need to stop doing, is supporting a candidate that does not have integrity and/or does not have a respect for the people. Too many politicians have become the new nobility, and look down upon the people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Foititis

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
If a politician does not have honesty as a virtue, and is honest in their dealing as a moral, then how can you believe anything they say they will do?

Then again how do you know they won't? All sorts of politicians have made election promises they've no intention of keeping one simply has to hope that they are electing a person who honestly believe their polices are going to change the country for the better that way weather they're a lying bastard or no they won't have any reason not to do what they claim.

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RE: Religion and Politics - 2/4/2008 4:46:04 PM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

KenDckey:
This is a theoretical discussion about whether the state and church should be separated,not one in which I stated that any church had.
I would hazard that when any church spokesperson advocates laws based on church teachings we are dangerously close.
thompson

I disagree. For example when a church spokesman stands outside a prison protesting against the death sentence saying we should have laws that prevent this, are they doing it for religious reasons or personal reasons. I lean toward the concept it is for personal, not religious, beliefs sicne the most religions have retalitory death as a part of their dogma.

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RE: Religion and Politics - 2/4/2008 7:29:38 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

KenDckey:
This is a theoretical discussion about whether the state and church should be separated,not one in which I stated that any church had.
I would hazard that when any church spokesperson advocates laws based on church teachings we are dangerously close.
thompson

I disagree. For example when a church spokesman stands outside a prison protesting against the death sentence saying we should have laws that prevent this, are they doing it for religious reasons or personal reasons. I lean toward the concept it is for personal, not religious, beliefs sicne the most religions have retalitory death as a part of their dogma.

KenDckey:
Read what I said and read what you said. We both said the same thing but you feel compelled to disagree with me....whaddup?
thompson

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RE: Religion and Politics - 2/4/2008 10:01:35 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Christians don't only believe in Heaven, Curious, they also believe in Hell (or accept the metaphors as convenient). What they believe in is that it matters how you live your life, because there will be a form of judgement.

You say holding an atheistic view (which I consider just as much a religion) gives you a higher value of life, but wouldn't it also give you carte blanche to live a completely amoral life, since there would never be any justice?

Rich:
Which would you consider the more ethical person?
The religious person who does the right thing because if they do not god will fuck over them.
Or
The atheist who does the right thing because it is the right thing to do?
You seem to be making the assumption that because someone does not believe in a Deity that they cannot act in an ethical fashion. There are other motivators besides fear of "eternal damnation" perhaps not for you personally but you are not the only person on this planet.
thompson

     Of course there are other motivators, Thompson. My personal opinion is that those who truely manage to walk the narrow path of peace, in the Grace of the Blood of Christ (sorry, but I feel the use of the word "xtians" in this thread requires a proper balance in the other direction) do so without a thought to the final judgement.

      Please note that I was asking Curious a rhetorical question, in the hope that he might see how the same simplistic standards might be applied to his belief system. This is a great topic for those who love to argue, because ultimately, every grand system of belief boils down to faith. Atheism is just another religion.

      Personally, I much prefer talking about Jesus with door-knocking missionaries. I can see the panic in their eyes.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 2/4/2008 10:03:37 PM >

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RE: Religion and Politics - 2/5/2008 7:18:43 AM

Real0ne

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In politics the only way we wil ever get integrity as whole is if it is forced! remove any and all executive privilege and start throwng the bastards in jail who make false promises. Only those with impecable integrity will be willing to run for office with that axe over their head!

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

There is no way to know with 100% certainty, but you can look at someones track read of how they vote on issues, and what they have said over the years. If they change their position, did they seem to do it for political currency, or for a sincere change of mind?

This is why the integrity of the person, is just as important as their stance on the issues. I can respect and follow a leader that has integrity, even if I do not agree with their methods (socialistic or conservative). What I believe the people need to stop doing, is supporting a candidate that does not have integrity and/or does not have a respect for the people. Too many politicians have become the new nobility, and look down upon the people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Foititis

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
If a politician does not have honesty as a virtue, and is honest in their dealing as a moral, then how can you believe anything they say they will do?

Then again how do you know they won't? All sorts of politicians have made election promises they've no intention of keeping one simply has to hope that they are electing a person who honestly believe their polices are going to change the country for the better that way weather they're a lying bastard or no they won't have any reason not to do what they claim.

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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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