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Nature vs nuture and integration of both - 2/3/2008 9:28:04 PM   
greyangelus


Posts: 192
Joined: 1/22/2008
Status: offline 		Bad topic name I know.  I haven't got this worked out yet so if you need some clarification I'll do so.

While some us have gotten lucky and happened to be raised in way that is a fit for thier natural  tendencies,  I know that for quite a few this didn't happen.  By this I mean that a person is born with natural inclinations for dom/sub (waaaaay too many "I first got my inklings at age 6" stories I've heard to dispute this), but when going through childhood end up being imprinted to be the opposite.  I'm positive this has to happen to a significant minority of dom/subs.  Again, I've talked with in person or read too many threads about a someone hitting their 40's and 50's and realizing that while they may have filled the dom/sub role for years in relationships or marriage, thier natural inclinations are of the opposite.

Right now, I'm stuck in roughly the same place.  By example, observation, and good old parenting (nuture),  how I was taught a man should behave is roughly analagous to being submissive (it gets a mite fuzzy, but suffice to say all of my immediate relationships role models were of the "the womans wears the pants, but she lets her man think he does")  By impluse, need, and a few others I don't have words for , how I want and need to behave is dominant.

Right now I'm stuck at an internal impasse,  with taught submission telling me to go one way, natural dominance telling me to go the other. The end result is mixed and confusing signals, and much more damaging,  I don't trust myself or my intentions.  Remember the cartoon strips with someone having a devil on one side and angel on the other? same basic principle.

However, I'm sincerely hoping that others here on the forums have experienced this same problem and managed to resolve and reconcile these 2 opposing forces.  I would love to hear how they managed this in thier own way and, please, feel free to give whateve advice you wish to give.

Peace, luck, see you in a bit.
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RE: Nature vs nuture and integration of both - 2/3/2008 9:34:18 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Being true to yourself is the hardest thing in the world to be.

It's also the only thing worth being.

I managed by training my family that my own security and happiness was what mattered most.  I also never inculcated those societal expectations upon me so I never had to cast them away.

THis is often why I encourage people to socialize- it can have tremendous benefits in seeing OTHERS actively engaged and recognizing the beast you've created within yourself is of your own making and not an actual beast at all.

_____________________________

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to greyangelus)
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RE: Nature vs nuture and integration of both - 2/3/2008 11:12:01 PM   
OedipusRexIt


Posts: 634
Joined: 11/15/2005
Status: offline 		I think the OP has described the ongoing challenge of life.  There are simply times when you're in flux, in transition, to a new you.  That's the "nurture" part working it's way on the "nature" part.

At any given time, one force is stronger than the other.  At all times, you're still in the driver's seat, steering towards one or the other.  If you're naturally dominant, it would follow that you'd be more likely to believe you make life happen, instead of life simply happening to you.

Learned behavior can be unlearned.  Ask any clean and sober addict.  Choosing your path is part of life. So, in my opinion, you must reconcile each conflict yourself by going to your basic nature, if indeed you feel you know it.  Look back on the path you've taken, past choices you've made, and reflect on how they've helped steer you to this latest choice, this newest transition. 

"Think of it as evolution in action".

_____________________________

"My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die..."

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Nature vs nuture and integration of both - 2/4/2008 12:10:18 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		We all have overcome social and familial constructs in order to become "who we really are"...and a lot of that doesn't have anything to do with being kinky. But, when it does, we see standard themes: Dominant women who grew out of being the submissive wife and good hostess and Dominant men who grew out of not hitting girls. I think the gay and lesbian community has one leg up on the het because they've had practice with going against 'society'. Doesn't mean it's any easier for them, but they kinda understand the process about learning to be who you are and accepting that in yourself.

Once you are clear about what's right in your relationship (what the two of you agree on) and what's right in society (don't handcuff them to the grocery cart in a small conservative town), you'll do fine. But, sometimes what we need is for our partner to validate our desires. Sometimes, I need to be told it's ok for me to 'be a bitch' and 'get what I want...just because I say so'. I don't do these things (usually) in the every day world...and even now it can take time to shift. It's getting easier though!

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
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BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to greyangelus)
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RE: Nature vs nuture and integration of both - 2/4/2008 1:05:42 AM   
greyangelus


Posts: 192
Joined: 1/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:


THis is often why I encourage people to socialize- it can have tremendous benefits in seeing OTHERS actively engaged and recognizing the beast you've created within yourself is of your own making and not an actual beast at all.


While my forays ito the local community have not been numerous,  I very well recognize what your saying by this.  I became acquintances with several couples that have been in longtime relationships (not close unfortunately, age gap and a lack of common interest outside of BDSM made that difficult).  At the time, it was admittly depressing. Later on I figured out it really wasn't depressing; just a very to-the-point reminder of how far I still have to go.  It'll be hell of a ride hopefully :D

quote:


Once you are clear about what's right in your relationship (what the two of you agree on) and what's right in society (don't handcuff them to the grocery cart in a small conservative town), you'll do fine. But, sometimes what we need is for our partner to validate our desires. Sometimes, I need to be told it's ok for me to 'be a bitch' and 'get what I want...just because I say so'. I don't do these things (usually) in the every day world...and even now it can take time to shift. It's getting easier though!


This does bring up another sticky point.  masterfiremaams bit about validation is about the point where I'm at, but validation does require another person. 

I know its my own decision to go seek another, but I'd be a fool not to ask for some advice on my next question.

1.  With the issues I'm having in the OP, is it really wise to go seek someone else at the same?  I can't help but feel the answer is yes.  I've done just about everything I can think of by myself at this point, anything is simply going to require relationship in order to answer.

Oh well, if you feel answering, please go ahead.  I'm blinking pretty hard trying to type this.  Even a "Go forth, young man, and prosper!" accompanied by a whack on the back of the head would be most appreciated

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
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RE: Nature vs nuture and integration of both - 2/4/2008 5:08:44 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		Punches you in the stomac and wacks you on the back of the head. Now go forth young man and prosper. Mmmm that was easy.

(in reply to greyangelus)
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RE: Nature vs nuture and integration of both - 2/4/2008 5:15:04 AM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline 		I completely identify with the OP. I feel the same about being raised to be dominant. Although its more confusing than that. My generation of females were raised to be both. The feminist and equality Gloria steinem thing along with ANd you should be submissive...its a mans world.

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RE: Nature vs nuture and integration of both - 2/4/2008 6:03:49 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Grey,

My struggles to become a healthy person as well as a healthy and skilled dominant are in many ways the same as yours.  How to balance the nurturing/submissive side with the controlling/domineering side (not that dominants can't be nurturing or submissives can't be controlling) is something that only you can figure out for you.

Find what works for YOU by watching others and looking for what resonates within  you.  For me, becoming a Daddy Dom was my path to that, it gives me a logical sort of framework for the kinks I like to do.

It has been a long drama filled path littered with broken partners and broken relationships.  My path was pretty brutal because I had some serious personal crap to overcome.

I recommend that you search for posts of mine that have "growth" in them as you might find them interesting, as well as one titled "spilling my guts".  I used to post as CrappyDom and some of those might be interesting reading.

I rarely say this but if you want to email me with questions (after you have read some of the above posts) I would be happy to respond if I can.

Bottom line, knowing you have a duality in you, looking to grow is a very healthy thing!

(in reply to greyangelus)
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RE: Nature vs nuture and integration of both - 2/4/2008 6:18:43 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		The fact that I didn't seek out a d/s relationship until after my marriage ended doesn't mean I was pretending to be dominant all those years. I wanted an egalitarian relationship where both parties needs were respected. Unfortunately his refusal to take any responsibility forced  me into a decision making role. Which is a lot different than actively seeking it.

I think if you talked to those women you know who actually make all the decisions, you would find they are equally frustrated as I was. That they would prefer a partner who carried his fair share of the load. But they have settled on this behavior to keep the peace and ensure that the family remains intact. Right now you are making the classic mistake of comparing your insides to someone else's outsides.

As far as how to proceed. Find someone you like, who has the same inclination and equal lack of experience and go explore together, being careful to talk everything over and to be respectful of each other at all times.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: Nature vs nuture and integration of both - 2/4/2008 7:39:05 AM   
charmdpetKeira


Posts: 916
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline 		Greyangelus,
 
I grew up with the same problem, though, the situation and reasons are slightly different. Mom “wore the pants” but my older brother still ranked as something special as “Mamma’s boy”. My father stayed behind the scenes and my sister is “Daddy’s girl”.
 
Being odd girl out, was like being expected to bake the cookies, but constantly getting one’s hand slapped for wanting to have one. Eventually I adopted the attitude, “If you want cookies, bake ‘em yourself; and while you’re eating them, what ever you do….. don’t choke. (I’m okay, really.) Hard letting someone in when your busy pushing them away.
 
Reconciliation has come from looking deeply into my inner workings and changing my perception of false ideas. I do a lot of reading here on the boards to get different ideas from different perceptions, and am doing some research in psychology and philosophy to understand how the mind works better.
 
It’s still hard, but getting better all the time. :)
 
Best wishes,

Wanted to add; even though growing up the way I did was extremely difficult at times, I am still able to find benifits from it.

k

< Message edited by charmdpetKeira -- 2/4/2008 8:15:49 AM >

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Life is tough, that does not mean it isn't fair.

There is no wrong choice, only consequence.

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RE: Nature vs nuture and integration of both - 2/4/2008 7:45:36 AM   
TracyTaken


Posts: 615
Joined: 2/1/2008
Status: offline 		The females in my family are overbearing shrews, IMO.  I'm not sure my mother was always like that, but she was for the last forty years of her life.  Not wanting to be like them had a definite affect on how I approached my marriage.  That's not the same as kink though.

I have always been, in the context of a romantic relationship, naturally submissive.   I had submissive fantasies since about the age you are talking about, 5 or 6, long before it could be described as a sexual inclination.  It took a lot of years and realizing there were a lot of people like me for me to be okay with that.

The flipside, my Dom/husband was raised in an abusive home with a raging father.  As an adult, he is the exact opposite of that, a gentle soul, nurturing, gracious, kind to everyone, etc.  He has always expressed dominant traits toward me, but he was careful to keep them check.  He even spanked me once!   In 1979, the middle of the night; the baby had colic, we were sleep deprived, baby squallin' at me, me squallin' at him - but that was before either of us ever heard of kink.  The spanking didn't go over well, lol.

The D/s hasn't been so much something we pursued as something we relaxed into.  He has said that he fears he has a dark side and is afraid of letting it out.  I'm not sure exactly what that means, but now he's not afraid of beating my butt black and blue.  He is not afraid of expecting certain things:  Dinner shortly after he gets home, whatever errands or "to do's" he wants done during the day, sex his way, his way on certain things regarding our homelife, that sort of thing.  He backs off if it's something that's likely to make me crazy  ("don't mess with the nest" kinds of stuff).

Life is short, you know?  Follow your bliss.  Your "intentions" are probably nothing to fear.  There is only one way to find out for sure. 

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RE: Nature vs nuture and integration of both - 2/4/2008 9:54:40 AM   
greyangelus


Posts: 192
Joined: 1/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Punches you in the stomac and wacks you on the back of the head. Now go forth young man and prosper. Mmmm that was easy.
 

Ah, see, thanks, sometimes that's all you really need .

quote:


I think if you talked to those women you know who actually make all the decisions, you would find they are equally frustrated as I was. That they would prefer a partner who carried his fair share of the load. But they have settled on this behavior to keep the peace and ensure that the family remains intact. Right now you are making the classic mistake of comparing your insides to someone else's outsides.


Later in life, I discovered that this was a case in most of those role model relationships.  Unlearning something, even if it is based on a false perception, does take some time however

quote:


The D/s hasn't been so much something we pursued as something we relaxed into.  He has said that he fears he has a dark side and is afraid of letting it out.  I'm not sure exactly what that means, but now he's not afraid of beating my butt black and blue.


That was a big stumbling block for me for a loooong time.  I managed to find the words to describe myself quite probably too early, I didn't get this worked out until a few years ago.  I know it sounds a bit like the OP, but this one was to stop fearing that side of me.  The OP is about integration.


EDITED:  If you've perved my profile before, take another look.  There's an actual profile there now.
Easiest time of writing it out I've ever had, which I take to be a good thing.

< Message edited by greyangelus -- 2/4/2008 9:58:21 AM >

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RE: Nature vs nuture and integration of both - 2/4/2008 10:02:58 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		i grew up hearing from my mom, "your sexuallity is your sexuallity and you should be whatever you want to be and don't let anyone influence you..." and then when she saw how i was intereacting in my relationships that i was perfectly happy in she said, "that's not what i meant" and when i came back with, "but this is what i learned from you mom...being submissive"...she said, "i don't want you to be like me, i'm not happy"...well...she gave her submission to the wrong man and her values tell her she can't divorce him (not yet anyway)....no wonder i am fucked up...

i learned from watching my mom that is is ok to do what feels natural...i also learned from my mom, becareful who you submit to...i know that i may have less reconcilliation of nature and nurture than others in this area...because i wasn't given a whole lot of nurture regarding as my sexuallity...but i have gotten a whole lot of "but that's not what i meant" when i've come back with my secured sexuallity...and that can really fuck with a person's confidence...

finally i stopped looking to my mom for my confidence in my sexuallity...i grew up....i stopped looking outside of myself and started looking inside of myself to figure out what works for me and what doesn't...other people can't decide what is wrong for me and what is right for me, only i can...sometimes it takes a lot of introspection...but that's not a bad thing...oh wait, it's a good thing...

just my thoughts, i don't know if they've made sense or not...but there they are
chelle....


_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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RE: Nature vs nuture and integration of both - 2/4/2008 10:56:16 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: greyangelus
1.  With the issues I'm having in the OP, is it really wise to go seek someone else at the same?  I can't help but feel the answer is yes.


This is like waiting for all the lights to be green before you start to go across town. It simply can't be done. You will never learn how you interact with people, really, until you actually interact with people. Life is a process of trial and error. Being afraid that a light will turn red is unhealthy and unrealistic.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

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