Genders, Dominance, and War

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Stephann -> Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 9:17:00 AM)
I didn't want to hijack this thread, so I'm starting a new one. quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy In general, woman and F's are always dominant --- making males chase after them to earn a position of intimacy. Dominant men just have a different way of expressing their subservience. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that we all chase girls. It may seem like bizaro world to some, but it does happen the other way around. ;) Ditto. "I know I attract women." It's no more vain than saying "I know how to fix a computer." Some people are naturally more capable of attracting people (male or female.) I'm not one of those people mind you; it's a skill I actually had to learn. I've known many submissive and vanilla men who would agree with you, cloudboy; in my opinion, that's more personal fantasy speaking than any genuine fact. My experience with women is that many want the one man who seems most difficult to have. They want him to notice her, court her, want her, etc; but it's his initial lack of interest (when she's interested in him) that makes her want him more. I don't find this to fit well in the submissive male mindset, because the fantasy and efforts on the part of the submissive (male or female) tend to revolve around doing the legwork. Confidence, especially when there's an equal part humility (which we usually call being 'down to earth) is incredibly attractive to others, both the same and opposite sexes. I'd much rather an 'average' looking, confident woman than a stunning woman who constantly felt she wasn't good enough. I think men who lack confidence envy men who are, and discount them from their model of how 'men should be.' For my part, charlotte's a very confident woman. She turns heads when she goes out, and before we met rarely lacked from men at bars or parties trying to woo her. It was their lack of confidence/dominance that left them with a fake phone number or a polite shrug off (after the free drinks, of course.) I'll let her elaborate on that though. Point is, I don't believe for a second that 'all women are dominant.' In fact, I find submissive women seem to outnumber dominant women almost 3 to 1. Regards, Stephan

kittinSol -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 9:22:28 AM)
Stephann, it's my personal experience that men are attracted to women who seem to shun them at the beginning. The less available I've been, the more rabid they became :-) . Being attracted to aloofness isn't just a female trait. What you're touching on here is a golden rule of seduction. Show little interest in someone, even if you're dying for them, and this will exacerbate the possession instinct in them. It goes without saying that not all of us are this way. The secret, once we've captured the object of our desires (or once we've been captured, the result, and method, are the same) is to discover whether the attraction resided solely in the seduction process, or in the long term love that could result from it.

Stephann -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 9:28:18 AM)
kittenSol, Oh, no question it works both ways; it's not my intention to paint anyone or anything here in black and white terms. I'm only pointing out what I've found works, from my perspective. If I were interested in attracting a dominant woman to be her submissive, I would probably use slightly different tactics (i.e. demonstrating a somewhat greater degree of interest without appearing too eager, and taking every opportunity to demonstrate skills that an ideal partner would find attractive.) For my part though, women who show no interest in me, quickly lose mine. I think that's part of what I'm trying to address in terms of confidence though; confident people don't need to prove their worth; it's already an internalized fact. I won't waste my time on a woman who isn't receptive to my interest; there's simply too many who are. But I agree, this isn't a function of gender so much as of personality. And, it did go without saying that I'm generalizing; individuals will always have different experiences and perspectives. Regards, Stephan

faerytattoodgirl -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 9:35:46 AM)
hmm....i have no problem attracting either gender.... its just....the women are harder for me to get their phone #'s! something to do with them being straight! ugh!

charlotte12 -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 9:41:07 AM)
peeks in to elaborate [8D] A beautiful woman certainly has a level of power to attract a man. I would not call this Dominance though. That would be akin to saying that all men who are wealthy are Dominant. Certainly there are plenty of girls out there that will chase after a rich man but this is generally because of his wealth and not because of who he is. It says more about the women chasing him than it does about him in fact. So a beautiful woman will certainly have men pursuing her but this doesn't make her Dominant. Master exaggerates about the # of free drinks I've gotten in my life but not about the number of men I've had trying to hump me on the dance floor (ugh...how I hate clubs here.) I certainly could have gotten plenty of free drinks if I had wanted to but it is not in my nature to use men like that...whether they deserve it or not. I tried a couple times at the encouragement of my friend (who I swear would be one of the best pro Domme's around if she wanted to be) but I simply do not enjoy wielding power like that. I strongly dislike being around men who would let me jerk them around like that so even if I could a free Gray Goose cocktail out of it I would be stuck with some silly boy's company for the rest of the night. Anyway, enough ranting about my clubbing experience in college...lol. My point is that I really wouldn't say that most women are Dominant because they have the power of attraction on their side. I would say Dominant women can use this to their advantage but in my case it simply helps me weed out the boys from the men, the boys being the ones who will do anything just to get a taste of this beautiful woman, the men being the ones who will simply swoop in and take the beautiful woman and say farewell with grace and dignity should she show a lack of interest. charlotte

softness -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 9:56:01 AM)
the man has a very strong point ...there is an essential difference in one person chasing after another ..and one skillfully seducing another I am a woman with strong self confidence ... I understand my own worth .. years of not being the prettiest, of the thinnest of the most popular as a teenager has that effect on a girl ... we ex-chubbies know what we dont have (the perfect size 10) but also know what we DO have .... girls with confidence tend to make sure they dont end up doing all the running .. that is not the same as saying women are the dominant ones .. I do not want a man to chase after me ... in fact men who are too obviously keen and desperate are more likely to get a fake number ... to use a cliche (shudders) I want to be hunted ... there is a huge thrill in a man skillfully manipulating me into getting myself caught. whether that is being tactically ignored, or however ... I will work to get the man i want because things worth having are worth working for but I am not going to run screaming after him ... playing a long extended and deliciously challenging cat and mouse with someone i know i share a mutual attraction with is far more erotic for me ... The truely awesome seducer is the one who makes the victim a willing one ... did you know that men who seduced married women in ancient Athens were punished with a greater ferocity than those who merely raped them ... seduction corrupts the mind ... something far more dangerous than a corrupted body anyway .. back to my point ... there is a difference between the desperate chase .... and the confident seduction ... desperation and dominance are different things

LadyHathor -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 10:51:37 AM)
[8\|] *Ok, Im a tad comfused here about the point and I went back to read the initial inspiring thread---talk about all around robins barn in that one--oy--anyway, here is My take---* quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy In general, woman and F's are always dominant --- making males chase after them to earn a position of intimacy. Dominant men just have a different way of expressing their subservience. I don't know how "holding the keys to the kingdom for ransom' by many women---is or can be equated with a generalized statement or determination regarding Dominance---so I am hoping that cb was tongue in cheek there---and I am not really sure what Dominance has to do with picking up guys or girls-- --now confidence, I agree with---I think people with a solid grip on themselves that exude confidence, attract people--regardless of our WIITWD orientation. I also think you can be confident in your environment yet shy in strange social settings. And one can just naturally attract people and not be able to pour pee out of a boot with the instructions on the heel---and I think that can be said for either gender. So I guess My point here, is I don't see what that ability or lack of it has to do with any level of dominance or submission, I think it has to do with the comfort level in certain social siuations--I am comfortable in most of them--but that's Me, having an out going Dad and jobs that required Me to be on all the time-however, that sure doesn't guarantee I'm dominant any more than it means I'm submissive.-- I'd rather have a boy who was uncomfortable in social situations but was confidant in who and what he was and what he brought to Me than a social butterfly anyday--- As for Me, I hate being chased and I hate being hunted---I am not the fresh jackrabbit for the day's dinner---nor do I hunt or chase---so may be I missed the point you were trying to make here, but I don't see how social skills, or the lack of them equates to dominance or submission--but rather comfort in those scenarios?

AquaticSub -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 10:59:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charlotte12 My point is that I really wouldn't say that most women are Dominant because they have the power of attraction on their side. I would say Dominant women can use this to their advantage but in my case it simply helps me weed out the boys from the men, the boys being the ones who will do anything just to get a taste of this beautiful woman, the men being the ones who will simply swoop in and take the beautiful woman and say farewell with grace and dignity should she show a lack of interest. What she said. Simply holding the advantage while someone tries to get in my pants does not make me a dominant.

Stephann -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 11:15:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHathor As for Me, I hate being chased and I hate being hunted---I am not the fresh jackrabbit for the day's dinner---nor do I hunt or chase---so may be I missed the point you were trying to make here, but I don't see how social skills, or the lack of them equates to dominance or submission--but rather comfort in those scenarios? I dont' think it's necessary to equate seduction with a hunt, though certainly one can draw parallels. My point was aimed at cloudboy's assertion that dominance or submission is gender driven (specifically that all women are dominant) and his proof was that women must be dominant, because they require men to pursue them. I pointed out that the capacity to dominate has nothing to do with gender. I elaborated on how seduction actually works; that those with greater social skills will always have more success attracting potential mates, and that confidence is a vital componant of seduction. If you don't like the word 'hunt' you can replace it with something more to your liking; courted, wooed, what have you. I don't like to be courted or wooed either; I enjoy a balanced dance myself. I'm not interested in convincing women they should like me, nor do I want a woman convincing me I should like her. That's all. Stephan

sirguym -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 11:18:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann Ditto. "I know I attract women." It's no more vain than saying "I know how to fix a computer." Some people are naturally more capable of attracting people (male or female.) I'm not one of those people mind you; it's a skill I actually had to learn. I've known many submissive and vanilla men who would agree with you, cloudboy; in my opinion, that's more personal fantasy speaking than any genuine fact. My experience with women is that many want the one man who seems most difficult to have. They want him to notice her, court her, want her, etc; but it's his initial lack of interest (when she's interested in him) that makes her want him more. I don't find this to fit well in the submissive male mindset, because the fantasy and efforts on the part of the submissive (male or female) tend to revolve around doing the legwork. Confidence, especially when there's an equal part humility (which we usually call being 'down to earth) is incredibly attractive to others, both the same and opposite sexes. I'd much rather an 'average' looking, confident woman than a stunning woman who constantly felt she wasn't good enough. I think men who lack confidence envy men who are, and discount them from their model of how 'men should be.' For my part, charlotte's a very confident woman. She turns heads when she goes out, and before we met rarely lacked from men at bars or parties trying to woo her. It was their lack of confidence/dominance that left them with a fake phone number or a polite shrug off (after the free drinks, of course.) I'll let her elaborate on that though. Point is, I don't believe for a second that 'all women are dominant.' In fact, I find submissive women seem to outnumber dominant women almost 3 to 1. Regards, Stephan Amongst my human-ponies and human-pony-trainers, amongst our adult school pupils, and everywhere else I've been able to estimate ratios, including general scene clubs, etc. I have found it a 3:1 ratio too. As far as I can see the same ration applies to men too. Obviously having 'switch' and trans people about does complicate the equation; but in my rough head counts I presume switches divide in the 3:1 ratio, and mtf trans people are sub, and ftm Dom. I know that's not 100% accurate, but it is usually enough for the exceptions to not be a significant proportion of the sample, in my experience. It's a ratio that to me strongly suggests a genetic influence; that in some way submissive traits are (genetically speaking) dominant, and Dominant traits are (genetically speaking) recessive; though of course it will be far more complex than just a single gene. But it makes sense to me in an evolutionary context; we're a pack animal, like baboons or gorillas, and it makes sense to have only one leader, plus a potential leader or two in waiting, in any one pack. I'd pretty much agree with much else Stephann is saying; I know a randy old goat, 75 years old, who had the reputation of knowing unerringly whose knickers he could charm off. I don't know whether he had to work at it, whether the confidence came first or the reputation; but he has it in spades. Even now he has the knack of attracting the avid attention of every receptive female in the room, though he admits that satisfying both his wives every day is not as easy as it used to be ...

toservez -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 11:27:24 AM)
I agree with the others who have written that confidence and strength are main characteristics that draws us woman. Look at any personal profile on here or any personal site regardless of regular and vanilla and almost all women will describe that they are looking for a confident and strong(mentally) male as key attributes. This is also where many men fail in the personal side of this site. They call themselves dominant and then write in such passive please have interest in me wording in their profile and messages that they just come off as weak. The trick is of course confidence is a line between arrogance and pushy so often the people faking confidence come off with one of those characteristics instead of confidence. Men and women are the same in terms of wanting the best that they can get. So I disagree in signaling out or thinking a woman wants the most difficult to have as I think the thought is close but not quite accurate. I think there is a subconscious association to a person we might have to try for is a signal to our brain that they are better then another man who we see hitting on anything that moves so therefore he must not be as good. I do not think most of us women go let’s see who is the hardest to get and go from there. It is just the female version of physical attraction that men often go by. Most men do not just shoot for the best looking women and go down from there but shoot for a good looking woman and other things in them. A strongly disagree that females are dominant because men chase us. One, this is just another mistake people in the power exchange life fall victim to on occasion and that is assigning traits of domination or submission to things that have no such traits. Two, society over its history has made it quite clear that women who do truly chase men often get saddled with labels and bad reputations like sluts and gold diggers for example. Three, if a man thinks it is so easy to pick a guy we like and sit back and try to get them to want us that is quite delusional. Get just any guy not a problem getting a guy we are attracted to I am sure it is as hard for us as it is with men in this area.

Stephann -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 11:28:46 AM)
Well, I'd have to disagree only on the ration of dom to sub males; I've found actively dominant men tend to outnumber actively submissive men about 2 to 1. I think this has more to do with social evolution (submissive women actively seeking the stronger of the pack to protect their children, and having to be the more pliable mate in order to tolerate the relationship) than genetics per se, but it's truly within living history that a time existed when physical strength (associated with dominance) was what ensured half the working population fed the whole. Just my two bits; in no way am I advocating male dominance/female submission to be superior or 'more' natural; I believe the only superiority involved is the superiority of self-awareness, in whatever form it takes. Stephan

charlotte12 -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 11:37:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toservez Get just any guy not a problem getting a guy we are attracted to I am sure it is as hard for us as it is with men in this area. Oh so true. [;)] charlotte

Stephann -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 11:48:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toservez Men and women are the same in terms of wanting the best that they can get. So I disagree in signaling out or thinking a woman wants the most difficult to have as I think the thought is close but not quite accurate. I think there is a subconscious association to a person we might have to try for is a signal to our brain that they are better then another man who we see hitting on anything that moves so therefore he must not be as good. I do not think most of us women go let’s see who is the hardest to get and go from there. It is just the female version of physical attraction that men often go by. Most men do not just shoot for the best looking women and go down from there but shoot for a good looking woman and other things in them. I apologize if I gave this short shrift. I was responding in contrast to cloudboy, and wasn't as succinct as I should have been. Women don't usually want a man who approaches her like a dog wagging it's tail (or Jar Jar Binks - char and I just got done watching the Star Wars series), saying "Hi, I think you're the hottest thing to walk in this bar, will you scratch my ears please?????" Certainly some women do, but I'm talking generalities. Furthermore, a woman who is that easy to please isn't someone I'd consider as a mate personally. But neither does the Don Juan approach seem best either; the "I'm the hottest thing in this bar, so if you're a real woman, you'll come dance with me." What works best, I think, is to make eye contact, with a friendly smile. If it's returned (especially with a blush and a quick looking down) it's a sure sign that this is someone who shares my interest. Making an off the cuff joke to the girl next to you in line is also a good way to see what she's like. I think what is most important about any approach, though, is to actually be relaxed, confident, and put nothing more into the exchange than "we're both here at the same time and place, and you seem like nice company for the next thirty seconds." If that time stretches to five or ten minutes, then the ice truly is broken and you're on your merry way. In short, nobody wants a perfect stranger (male or female) to leap through hoops just to talk to them; in fact, it's a little creepy. Serve well, toservesz. Stephan

AquaticSub -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 11:56:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann Women don't usually want a man who approaches her like a dog wagging it's tail (or Jar Jar Binks - char and I just got done watching the Star Wars series), saying "Hi, I think you're the hottest thing to walk in this bar, will you scratch my ears please?????" Certainly some women do, but I'm talking generalities. Furthermore, a woman who is that easy to please isn't someone I'd consider as a mate personally. But neither does the Don Juan approach seem best either; the "I'm the hottest thing in this bar, so if you're a real woman, you'll come dance with me." I'd admire the balls of someone who used the "scratch my ears" line but I'd probably think they were on the other side of the leash. But then again, if a man has enough balls to actually come up to me and use a line seriously (to continue the SW theme, "Hey, sexy. I'll be your Han Solo if you'll be my Leia") I really admire the confidence. I may not go home with him, but I'll definately talk to him for awhile. If he's good company and makes me laugh, there is a good chance he will get my number. Particularly if he uses a SW line. [:D] PS. Except the "I'm so hot" lines. Those turn me off.

Stephann -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 12:03:34 PM)
It's hard to explain the body language associated with the image I'm trying to paint for you, Aquatic. Picture the wide eyed wonder, awe, and joy on a mans face who has just finished listening to his favorite radical cult leader discuss the impending enlightenment he'll receive after he's cut his nipples off... ...now focus that look on your breasts. Add tail wag, stir, and serve over crushed ice. This is the "I wanna be your... friend...." enthusiasm I was discussing. The guts to use non-traditional humor is always a great way to start a conversation. Stephan

LadyHathor -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 12:04:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHathor As for Me, I hate being chased and I hate being hunted---I am not the fresh jackrabbit for the day's dinner---nor do I hunt or chase---so may be I missed the point you were trying to make here, but I don't see how social skills, or the lack of them equates to dominance or submission--but rather comfort in those scenarios? I dont' think it's necessary to equate seduction with a hunt, though certainly one can draw parallels. My point was aimed at cloudboy's assertion that dominance or submission is gender driven (specifically that all women are dominant) and his proof was that women must be dominant, because they require men to pursue them. I pointed out that the capacity to dominate has nothing to do with gender. I elaborated on how seduction actually works; that those with greater social skills will always have more success attracting potential mates, and that confidence is a vital componant of seduction. If you don't like the word 'hunt' you can replace it with something more to your liking; courted, wooed, what have you. I don't like to be courted or wooed either; I enjoy a balanced dance myself. I'm not interested in convincing women they should like me, nor do I want a woman convincing me I should like her. That's all. Stephan I agree with you competely, I think I went around robins barn to get there---lol---and I like the "balanced dance"--that's how I like things to be as well----and I think you know what I mean about the jackabbit dinner comment--women go after men like that too at times----lol---nice post though, great thought and helps strip away some of the crap associated with what we do.

AquaticSub -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 12:17:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann It's hard to explain the body language associated with the image I'm trying to paint for you, Aquatic. Picture the wide eyed wonder, awe, and joy on a mans face who has just finished listening to his favorite radical cult leader discuss the impending enlightenment he'll receive after he's cut his nipples off... ...now focus that look on your breasts. Add tail wag, stir, and serve over crushed ice. This is the "I wanna be your... friend...." enthusiasm I was discussing. The guts to use non-traditional humor is always a great way to start a conversation. Stephan Ahhh yes.... that would scare me. A lot. In fact I've seen that look before. It always makes me think "This is the guy who is going to go through my trash cans looking for used pads and follow me around town".

sirguym -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 1:32:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann Well, I'd have to disagree only on the ration of dom to sub males; I've found actively dominant men tend to outnumber actively submissive men about 2 to 1. I think this has more to do with social evolution (submissive women actively seeking the stronger of the pack to protect their children, and having to be the more pliable mate in order to tolerate the relationship) than genetics per se, but it's truly within living history that a time existed when physical strength (associated with dominance) was what ensured half the working population fed the whole. Just my two bits; in no way am I advocating male dominance/female submission to be superior or 'more' natural; I believe the only superiority involved is the superiority of self-awareness, in whatever form it takes. Stephan I can only speak from my personal experience over a couple of decades in the UK, within the kind of scene clubs that cater more for the 'people who do', rather than 'those who pose'. In my experience those who appear to me to be, by outfit, actions or body language, submissive men (+ mtf trans) always comfortably outnumber the actively Dominant men. Of course it is not always easy to tell; there are always lurkers and wankers (jerks?) who affect the Dominant dress-style; but as an organiser of events I have seen the self-defined preferences people trust me to know, to help them pair-off. It may be different in the US, due to cultural factors; it may even be different from one coast to the other, different in the gay world, I can't know. It is certainly apparently different in the vanilla world, in the environments wiith which I am familiar; engineering, politics, the Civil Service. But I believe that reflects cultural influences; that many men with an underlying submissive orientation, put on a faux-dominant front to get by in their career. Certainly I have known many men who would appear to be 'Uber-Doms' in their vanilla life, who are actually surrendered pussy-cat submissives in the privacy of the bedroom, or their Master's or Mistress's dungeon.

softness -> RE: Genders, Dominance, and War (2/4/2008 1:55:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirguym quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann Well, I'd have to disagree only on the ration of dom to sub males; I've found actively dominant men tend to outnumber actively submissive men about 2 to 1. I think this has more to do with social evolution (submissive women actively seeking the stronger of the pack to protect their children, and having to be the more pliable mate in order to tolerate the relationship) than genetics per se, but it's truly within living history that a time existed when physical strength (associated with dominance) was what ensured half the working population fed the whole. Just my two bits; in no way am I advocating male dominance/female submission to be superior or 'more' natural; I believe the only superiority involved is the superiority of self-awareness, in whatever form it takes. Stephan I can only speak from my personal experience over a couple of decades in the UK, within the kind of scene clubs that cater more for the 'people who do', rather than 'those who pose'. In my experience those who appear to me to be, by outfit, actions or body language, submissive men (+ mtf trans) always comfortably outnumber the actively Dominant men. Of course it is not always easy to tell; there are always lurkers and wankers (jerks?) who affect the Dominant dress-style; but as an organiser of events I have seen the self-defined preferences people trust me to know, to help them pair-off. It may be different in the US, due to cultural factors; it may even be different from one coast to the other, different in the gay world, I can't know. It is certainly apparently different in the vanilla world, in the environments wiith which I am familiar; engineering, politics, the Civil Service. But I believe that reflects cultural influences; that many men with an underlying submissive orientation, put on a faux-dominant front to get by in their career. Certainly I have known many men who would appear to be 'Uber-Doms' in their vanilla life, who are actually surrendered pussy-cat submissives in the privacy of the bedroom, or their Master's or Mistress's dungeon. flip it around ... i spend my days being highly Dominant, I am good at my job because I control the flow of power, my career depends on me maintaing the balance of power always in my favour ... now am i like that just to survive? .. or is my homelife submission just a counter balance to my worklifeDominance? ... which is the true me? because they are both me ... neither one of them is a front or a cover or a mask for the other ... just as those "seemingly" Dominant men in the workplace may lick their Mistresses boots ... I control a roomful of people with a flick of my eyebrow .. and two hours later beg to be granted a dog bowl for my dinner

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