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NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/7/2005 2:35:59 AM   
lovingmaster45


Posts: 261
Joined: 9/16/2004
Status: offline 		Washington, DC - U.S. Rep. Brad Miller (NC-13) delivered the following statement on Friday, September 2 on the floor of the House of Representatives in support of the $10.5 billion Emergency Supplemental Appropriations bill for Hurricane Katrina victims:

"I know that today's session was a formality, that there would be no votes other than a voice vote, but I thought it was important to be here to show my support for the victims of Hurricane Katrina in whatever way I could, however modest.

"Martin Luther King said, 'we cannot walk alone.’ We are responsible for one another. We help others in need on the faith that when we are in need we will be helped.

"North Carolinians have twice faced desperate needs following devastating hurricanes in just the last decade. Other Americans responded generously both acting together through their government and in their contributions to private relief efforts. Americans are again responding generously to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina.

"But, Mr. Speaker, I share the anger of many Americans at how shamefully inadequate our government's response has been. Tens of thousands of Americans are living outside the walls of civilization. They are without food, they are without water to drink, they are without medicine or medical care, they are without effective shelter, they are without the protection against violence that law provides.

"The failures that led to that are not the failures of the last four days; but of the last four years.

"There have been repeated warnings that New Orleans and the Gulf Coast were vulnerable to precisely what has occurred and yet our government was stunningly unprepared.

"The President's press secretary was asked earlier this week about our government's response to the hurricane and he said, 'now is not the time for finger pointing.'

"Earlier today on this floor Mr. Lewis [CA-41] said, 'now is not the time for finger pointing.'

"Mr. Wamp [TN-03] said, 'now is not the time for finger pointing.'

"Mr. Kirk [IL-10] said, 'now is not the time for recrimination.'

"Mr. Lungren [CA-03] said, 'now is not the time for recrimination or for finger pointing.'

"They say now is the time to grieve for the victims of the hurricane.

"Mr. Speaker, I do grieve for the victims of the hurricane.

"They say now is the time to help the victims of the hurricane.

"Mr. Speaker, I want to help the victims of the hurricane in every way that I can. I am here today and like millions of Americans, my wife and I are contributing to private relief efforts.

"But Mr. Speaker, there has to come a time for accountability. If there is not accountability for the stunning failures that we have seen in our government's response to this hurricane, we will fail again and again.

"I know that this administration thinks that accountability is an ephemeral thing. If there is an attempt at accountability too soon, it's finger pointing. If there is an attempt at accountability too late, then it's something you should get over. There is just a moment for accountability.

"Mr. Speaker, tell me when that moment will be. Tell me precisely when the moment will come for accountability for the failures of our response, for the failures of our planning that have led to the devastation and the hardships that we are seeing now.

"And Mr. Speaker, tell me where the line forms to ask hard questions. I yield back the balance of my time."



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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/7/2005 1:38:33 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		James Hirsen's "Left Coast Report" follows:
quote:

While discussion is warranted to determine whether 72 hours is a reasonable time for a federal response to a crisis of this proportion, for some opportunists appropriate analysis gave way to political sniping.

President Bush declared Louisiana a disaster area two days before the hurricane struck the New Orleans area. President Bush urged New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin and Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco to order the mandatory evacuation that was issued on Sunday, August 28.
First responders to a disaster are always state and local emergency agencies. FEMA is there to supplement the state and local activities. The hurricane threatened an area as large as 90,000 square miles covering three states. Immediate relief could not possibly have been delivered to all the places that required attention.
An AP photo showed a large fleet of New Orleans buses soaking in six feet of water. The mayor apparently had the means to evacuate many of the folks who ended up stranded at the Super-dome and the convention center.
FEMA began its activities immediately, not expecting the magnitude of the flooding, the non-response at the city and state level, and the anarchy that resulted.
The local and state governments had rehearsed for a different scenario. Disaster drills in New Orleans had taken place, but with a false assumption that the levees would hold.

Both the law and protocol prohibit the president from ordering military troops into a state without a formal request to do so from the governor of the affected state.




Considering all that, I don't think that protocol needed to be followed. It was obvious that the major of New Orleans was ill prepared and/or equipped to handle this type of emergency. Remember, until the levee broke, New Orleans WAS "spared".

Another interesting note from an insurance standpoint; most policies will pay for damage occurring during a hurricane. Most will NOT pay as the result of a flood. "Flood Insurance" requires a specific policy rider. Wait until that situation becomes front page news. The insurance companies are already getting their legal resouces ready for the battle.

However back to the federal government. I think the Federal government did a terrible job. But, if the troops were ordered into New Orleans, and forced the people to leave we would have heard that the federal government under Bush, had become a "storm trooper" regime. It is/was a no win.

Solution: Donate all the money and time you can. While at the collection center talk all you want about changing the US, stopping global warming, and getting the Republicans out of office. As long as you are doing it will working for a solution - it's serving a purpose.

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/7/2005 5:56:26 PM   
Craftsman


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Status: offline 		I screwed up. Sorry. How does one delete a post that dupicates a post that one wanted to edit but it turned out to be a reply instead? <scratching head>

< Message edited by Craftsman -- 9/7/2005 7:31:05 PM >

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/7/2005 7:25:30 PM   
Craftsman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

<Major snippage to get to what I wanted to comment on>

I think the Federal government did a terrible job. But, if the troops were ordered into New Orleans, and forced the people to leave we would have heard that the federal government under Bush, had become a "storm trooper" regime. It is/was a no win.

<Still more snippage to keep this post from wasting bandwidth.


To read the full post from which the short paragraph was taken, scroll on up and read it. Agree or disagree with the content; it is worthwhile reading.

I just read a CNN Breaking News alert in my e-mail, stating that the mayor of New Orleans has signed an order for forced evacuations. We may see what happens when troops are ordered in. This is an order that has been suggested as a solution in other sections of this Board, so time will tell how this reads out.

What we will all have to remember is that it is the Mayor of New Orleans that signed that order, not George Bush. I am also sure that when the 'storm troopers' do their work, "Dub-ya" will be blamed.

It is a no-win situation all around. The nation has a lot to pore over and study during and after this event. Hopefully we will learn from the tragedy.

How would the Federal government do a better job? What did the Federal government do that made response unacceptable, or omit doing that would have improved Federal response?


<last paragraph reworded to reduce ambiguity>


< Message edited by Craftsman -- 9/7/2005 7:27:37 PM >

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/7/2005 8:48:17 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

What we will all have to remember is that it is the Mayor of New Orleans that signed that order, not George Bush
Unfortunate how no one cuts that wonderful, brilliant, generous, worldly, human rights activist, excellent english speaking man any slack huh? M

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/7/2005 9:44:39 PM   
Craftsman


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Status: offline 		Some day I'll learn to shut up. Maybe now is the time. <shrug>

Suffice it to say that I expect the transparent and predictable to do what the transparent and predictable will, and for that reason there is some considerable doubt as to whether this post will be replaced. It wasn't, just added to.

I am getting quite an education, however, in the situation in New Orleans in specific and in the pulse of the nation in general, so Thank You, One and All, for the inspiration to study the conditions facing our Nation in some depth.

Mayor Ray Nagin is in a very tough position. It takes thought and balance to make the right decisions. On this board, we do not cut each other much slack sometimes. In real life, Ray Nagin faces the very real possibility of his decisions costing lives. That is the natural consequence of being in that kind of position. He is the one who is in the position of authority; without his signature, his state could not apply for Federal aid, and FEMA and the rest of Homeland Security would be essentially barred from responding. Either way he turns, he will face critics as well as find supporters. His position is one I do not envy, and I am certainly not qualified to fill his shoes. I doubt that many if any of the posters here have those qualifications either.

My point was, and is, that disaster response is the responsibility of local authority first. Local authority is 'right there' to assess the situation and initiate response. The laws that I have seen applied keep the federal government out of the state and local response until a request is made. Mayor Nagin made that request, and Mayor Nagin signed the forced evacuation order, as is his rightful and lawful authority. No one else has that authority unless and until the Mayor signs his authority over to an Overhead Team in the SEMS system. It is not my position to agree or disagree. I will simply watch and learn.

As a side note; the FEMA manuals (available to the public on the FEMA website for no charge except your ISP costs for time, and in any US Government bookstore as listed under 'Government' in the White Pages of most telephone directories)
state that a trained disaster responder who finds him/herself in the position of victim in a disaster can be expected to be at less than 30% efficiency. Multiply what and who Mayor Ray Nagin is by a little over 3, and you see what kind of man he is. If he is working at less than that, say at 25% his capacity, then multiply who and what he is by 4 to gain the true measure of the man.

The problem is not that "No one will cut him slack." The problem is that he will have detractors no matter which way he turns. Mayor Nagin will also have supporters. That is also true of the Members of Congress, Heads of response agencies, military commanders up to and including Commander in Chief George "Dub-ya" Bush who is, after all, like it or not, President of these United States of America. CNN says that it cuts on party lines; 2/3 of Republicans think President Bush is doing a heroic, fantastic job. 2/3 of Democrats say that 'Dub-ya' is a disgrace to the nation.

People on both sides of the debate might do well to recognize and remember, and maybe even, <gasp> learn a little about how and why these seemingly bureaucratic checks and balances exist, even though they sometimes appear to hinder progress.

OK, maybe now I shut up.



< Message edited by Craftsman -- 9/7/2005 11:21:11 PM >

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/8/2005 8:42:56 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		When the head of FEMA says he just heard about the people dying outside the convention center on the same day that CNN was showing them on TV, that's when I decide no longer to cut slack.

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/8/2005 8:48:03 AM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

When the head of FEMA says he just heard about the people dying outside the convention center on the same day that CNN was showing them on TV, that's when I decide no longer to cut slack.


Actually, I think it was several days later. I was watching the interview and the interviewer looked at him in shock and said something like "Don't you watch television?"

His response was something like "It (several days after the broadcast) was when I first heard it from a reliable source."

Now, I'm not a big fan of the accuracy of the news media (I used to teach journalism at a university) but I really never thought this might be some sort of CGI special effect.

To quote one survivor broadcast on CNN, "Damn it, man, people are DYING here."



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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/8/2005 8:53:12 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		I thought it was that same evening (I guess it was Thursday, Sept. 1), but maybe it was even later than that.

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/8/2005 9:03:22 AM   
pantera


Posts: 210
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

What we will all have to remember is that it is the Mayor of New Orleans that signed that order, not George Bush
Unfortunate how no one cuts that wonderful, brilliant, generous, worldly, human rights activist, excellent english speaking man any slack huh? M



"activist".... yuck!!! that word makes me sick-



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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/8/2005 9:07:29 AM   
pantera


Posts: 210
Joined: 1/7/2005
Status: offline 		government, government, government!!!! the government didn't do this for me!!! the government didn't do that for you!!!!

since when is government more responsible for your life that you???

I'm not saying there is not a lot that the government needs to do... and we all have a lot to learn- but even now there are people that are refusing to leave their homes- and the same thing happened before the hurricane hit-



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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/8/2005 9:54:50 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

When the head of FEMA says he just heard about the people dying outside the convention center on the same day that CNN was showing them on TV, that's when I decide no longer to cut slack.


L&M,
When he said he heard about it on CNN he should have been fired immediately. And not because he wasn't watching Fox.

What happened in New Orleans was worse than NYC by a factor of 100, so it's not a direct comparison; but lets looks at some of the decisions made. A woman transit police officer stationed in the terminal at the bottom of the complex closed the terminal and ordered the trains already in the terminal to back out with as many passengers as they could take. She did not survive. Major Guilianni, shut down all inbound access routes to NYC. When the Emergency Disaster Command center, located in one of the WTC buildings was inaccessible, another command center was set up in a mobile unit within 2 hours. When the planes hit the buildings someone at air traffic control grounded all planes and closed US airspace to inbound aircraft from foreign destinations.

The point is that people made decisions. With the exception of the air traffic control example all those decisions were made by local people. As everyone is quick to point out, President Bush was ready a story to children while all this was going on. By the time the Federal government got involved the situation was stabilized.

Were there mistakes? Sure - Many of the people in WTC II were on their way out of the building when an announcement came on that said; "The 'incident' is limited to building one, building 2 has not been effected. If you would like to return to your office you are free to do so."

Now fire is a easier to control versus flooding. The scale and scope of the devastation was much broader. But remember, unlike 9/11 in NYC, there was a 3-5 day warning for the area. The Federal government declared the area a disaster area two days prior to the hurricane's arrival. Yet the governor did not request call up the 6,000 national guardsman availible to her. Neither the governor or the mayor canceled all scheduled vacations for police or fireman. No in-shore resources, like buses, were called into the city to evacuate the people who wanted to leave but couldn't due to illness or lack of transportation. Even directing the people to the Superdome was an example of mismanagement. There was no plan for the people once they got there. No plan to feed them, no plan for sanitation facilities, no plan to move them out after the storm.

The day after the hurricane, the major of New Orleans declared that 10,000 are dead, and more will be dying because the water is still rising. Now if Rudy said what I was thinking on 9/11, that there were at least 50,000 people dead and we don't know how many more suicide planes are on the way; he would have instilled counter productive panic. Leadership goes a long way to give the perception of control. Guilianni was no more in control of the situation on 9/11 as major Nagin was in New Orleans. Yet the people fed off that leadership and were comforted by it. No one on Guilianni's staff considered abandoning ship to find out what happened to their family. The New Orleans police chief was given a few days off to "get his head together". Three hundred New Orleans policeman quit.

There was failure at the City level, the State level, and the Federal level. Who gets the most blame? To the dead, dying, displaced, dispossed, why does it even matter? As a person who has donated time, money, and other resources, why do I have to hear one sided political propaganda by a "celebrity" as part of a fund raising effort? Does that have a mobilizing effect to some? When I see a pitch for birth defect donations there is no inclusion of people saying; "if only the parents aborted these children we wouldn't have this problem."

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/8/2005 11:52:22 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I'm still impressed by how well 9/11 was handled, and Giuliani and Pataki, as much as I dislike them for other reasons, were very close to heroic (especially Giuliani). I don't think anyone who saw the footage of what happened would have believed that the final death toll would be as low as it was.

But New York (and don't forget the Pentagon) have incomparably greater resources to rely on than New Orleans. Only right-wing ideologues will tell you that the city should have been able to respond to the crisis without help from the federal government. I keep coming back to the same mind-numbing fact: FEMA knew for years that this would happen eventually, and for almost a week that it would happen on August 29--and they were still unprepared. That's not acceptable.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 9/8/2005 11:53:38 AM >

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/8/2005 1:13:48 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

"activist".... yuck!!! that word makes me sick-
I could start sharing with you things that make me sick, but I'm going to behave today... I think I will, the day is still so young. M

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/8/2005 1:42:45 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

The problem is that he will have detractors no matter which way he turns. Mayor Nagin will also have supporters. That is also true of the Members of Congress, Heads of response agencies, military commanders up to and including Commander in Chief George "Dub-ya" Bush who is, after all, like it or not, President of these United States of America. CNN says that it cuts on party lines; 2/3 of Republicans think President Bush is doing a heroic, fantastic job. 2/3 of Democrats say that 'Dub-ya' is a disgrace to the nation.

People on both sides of the debate might do well to recognize and remember, and maybe even, <gasp> learn a little about how and why these seemingly bureaucratic checks and balances exist, even though they sometimes appear to hinder progress.
You would do well to stop talking to people here like we're in kindergarden and can't possibly know that people in positions of power have to make difficult decisions sometimes.
You would do well to allow your mind to open and maybe learn that mine is not a democratic or liberal spin... I don't even care for debates outside of the possibility of learning something to improve humanity for humans.
The reason I don't cut GW slack is because I feel he is a liar, and a hipocrite who hates affirmative action except when it is applied to help him.

It's not just called "hindering progress" when one's indecision (due to lack of sensitivity or familiarity) is unfair, unjust, ill-informed, and ultimately deadly to a great number of people.
It is astounding to me if in fact 2/3 of republicans think GW is doing a great job... I think a great many republicans mix up the info or misinformation that's been spewed out by the anything-but-liberal-media and are taking many of the decisions he makes as an us-against-them decision, so that one would have to choose the us; I mean if I were to believe what the man says, than everything he does is to help save my ass and help me prosper; yet for some reason I feel like I'm being nonconsensually bent over some days, I have to ask why?

Cut him slack? That's all he's had is paved roads and silver spoons, so you'll forgive me if I don't join you in hailing the pride and joy that is our current president, since most days I feel I being driven straight to hell by his Godliness.
I'm going with my initial statement in regards to my impression of you... Transparent!
I believe you called me and people who speak like me predictable? I can absolutely live with that. I am predictably in favor of justice (with equality in its delivery), humanity, accountability, fairness, and other things I hope will help save us all.. M
http://civilliberty.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.amconmag.com/2004%5F11%5F08/cover1.html
http://www.frugalfun.com/not-in-our-name.html
http://www.now.org/nnt/summer-2000/mollyivins.html
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/08_clarke.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/15/60minutes/main612067.shtml
http://www.statenews.com/op_article.phtml?pk=26398


< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 9/8/2005 3:29:54 PM >

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/8/2005 2:09:25 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

government, government, government!!!! the government didn't do this for me!!! the government didn't do that for you!!!!

since when is government more responsible for your life that you???
You're right, the government does way too much for people already, so fuck the lazy bastards who can't save themselves.
You be careful and don't let your white sheets get dirty with all the dirty water down there. M

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/9/2005 11:22:41 AM   
pantera


Posts: 210
Joined: 1/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

"activist".... yuck!!! that word makes me sick-
I could start sharing with you things that make me sick, but I'm going to behave today... I think I will, the day is still so young. M



bring it on girl!!!!

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/9/2005 11:24:26 AM   
pantera


Posts: 210
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

[
Cut him slack? That's all he's had is paved roads and silver spoons,



Envy... so common!!!! and politicians know that, so they play it like a drum-

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/9/2005 11:29:28 AM   
pantera


Posts: 210
Joined: 1/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

[You're right, the government does way too much for people already, so fuck the lazy bastards who can't save themselves.
You be careful and don't let your white sheets get dirty with all the dirty water down there. M



I know I'm right- I'm used to it-

now... I didn't quite get the part about the sheets.... or the water for that matter (maybe you're referring to the chattahoochee or lake lanier) but well...logic and coherence don't seem to be your strength-

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RE: NC Representative shares my frustration - 9/9/2005 11:39:37 AM   
pantera


Posts: 210
Joined: 1/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

I am predictably in favor of justice (with equality in its delivery), humanity, accountability, fairness


where have I heard this before????? it sounds so familiar- Oh, I know!!! I heard it in every single one of Castro's speeches when I was in Cuba!!!!


Equality: From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs....

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