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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/7/2008 5:59:38 PM

SugarMyChurro

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The road to Damascus story was a lie told so that one man could gain political control of a burgeoning community. We've actually talked about that here before. Boring!

To be honest I found your description of "the Matrix and the Divine" very Douglas Adams, so I guess the answer forthcoming will be 42. It's not a bad thing, just one man's fiction is another man's faith, eh? How do you step outside the machine and know what's real? Oh right...

I have sought because I think some faith-based ideas are quite beautiful really. But even if you added up every vision of machine elves anyone ever experienced you aren't closer to a faith idea with any veracity beyond an apparent hallucination. It's a nutty problem that a million Terrence McKenna's and a million more Rupert Sheldrake's could never crack.

Los brujeros saben mierda.

< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 2/7/2008 6:01:38 PM >

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 261

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/8/2008 12:43:09 AM

Rule

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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
The road to Damascus story was a lie told so that one man could gain political control of a burgeoning community.

You are in denial, SMC, like a recalcitrant boy that feels wronged by the gods and / or by the Divine and in spite turns his back on them and says, "It is not true".
It so happens that the story is true.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
I have sought

No you have not. You have never stepped on the road to Damascus, you have never sought and therefore you have never found. You have not stepped on the road to Damascus because you are in denial: "The road to Damascus story was a lie".

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 262

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/8/2008 1:22:30 AM

girlygurl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And as usual, I find myself shaking my head, at the fact that one side is so convinced that the other is full of it...and yet adopts the same logical fallacies and BS debate tactics in support of their assertions...

Over the last few days I've seen more "BS" on CM about who's right and who's wrong instead of just getting we all have our opinions and being OK with that.

I for one, know with all of my heart and soul that there is a God. And I know with all of my heart and soul that some don't believe that, so what? I'm not here to convince anyone that my way of thinking, or what I believe is "right", nor am I here for others to attempt to sway me from my beliefs... it won't happen.

I appreciate a good discussion, but I find it utterly pointless to tell someone they are wrong for believing in somthing or someone. No one made me "knower of all right and wrong"

so by golly, I won't say that you're wrong or bad for not believing in what I believe to be true.

girly ( opinions are like assholes... we all have one, and they all stink

just a little humor people)

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happily forever one

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Post #: 263

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/8/2008 4:20:17 AM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
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Imagine

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

- John Lennon

(in reply to girlygurl)

Post #: 264

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/8/2008 4:31:14 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Imagine

yes - thats the stuff; throw away your Bible (if you have one) and contemplate this. Contemplate long enough and you'll get it if you want it.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 265

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/8/2008 4:48:41 AM

Rule

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Joined: 12/5/2005
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An idealist living in la-la land where the pink clouds are...

Edited to add: To which I add that last evening one of my small female neighbours was visited by her enraged boyfriend, who mistakenly had a grudge against her, a huge bipolar bloke. He pushed through the closed main door, ran down the corridor and smashed the locked door to her room, molested her and tried to open her window with the purpose to perform a lethal defenestration. The noise caused me to go out into the corridor in my pyama pants. I clapped my hands to distract him from the window and waited with several young fellows for the police to arrive, while she pleaded with him. She had to visit the hospital for a check-up and if the three or four of us had taken him on, we also would have accompanied her. He is being charged for attempted manslaughter.

Such violence used to be nearly unheard of when religion was strong in my country. Now it is not.

You go sit on your pink clouds and dream on, SMC. While we face the harsh reality.

< Message edited by Rule -- 2/8/2008 5:16:58 AM >

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 266

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/8/2008 5:06:05 AM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
In many ways this conversation breaks down into two camps: that of the ignorantly faithful, and the educated faithless.

quote:

ORIGINAL:SugarMyChurro
What I really seek is a world of greater tolerance.

Are you actually President Bush under an assumed name?

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I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

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Post #: 267

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/8/2008 6:41:07 AM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Such violence used to be nearly unheard of when religion was strong in my country. Now it is not.

Got some proof of that claim? At present areas with very faithful populaces do have a.very noticeable domestic violence rate.

The amish, for instance, do have incidences of DV see here

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 268

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/8/2008 7:13:38 AM

Rule

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Joined: 12/5/2005
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No, I do not. My assertion rests solely upon my own second hand impressions of the first half of the twentieth century. I am not a criminologist and I do not know whether any criminologists have made a study of these trends and their causes.

In any case I suspect it was a case rather of criminal revenge than of domestic violence, as he accused her of having betrayed his mariuhana plantation to the cops.

< Message edited by Rule -- 2/8/2008 7:20:42 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 269

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/20/2008 11:13:47 AM

babydriver

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Well actually there is. Rigor mortis sets in. The body starts to decompose, the worms crawl in, the worms crawl out etc. Assuming one's body is buried. If cremated, well the ashes that remain after incineration are empirical enough.

Personally I hate all that. I hate knowing that death is the end of existence. It sucks. And I admit it. I'm scared. Because there's no evidence of any sort of continuation of self after death. Nor can I even conceptualize it. Any time I start to think that there might be a possibility, an endless stream of contrary evidence appears. No amount of wishing can change that fact. All thoughts, all the self talk we do is all done inside our heads - where the brain is. When it is shut off, thoughts, dreams everything is gone.

That sucks. It really does. The knowledge that this brief life is all there is...well that sucks. It sucks that the vast majority of people who ever lived are gone and forgotten and no one ever knows they existed at all.

And that sucks.

I want to believe. I envy those folks who believe effortlessly who are able to comfort themselves with the belief in demons and angels and god and whatnot.

I'm an atheist by default. I arrived here because I've never seen a single shred of evidence of anything supernatural or anything other than this physical world. I would never deny any believer their faith or beliefs. The more I experience the meaninglessness and absurdity of existence, I envy those who are able to live and believe in an infinitely more comfortable lie.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

There is no empirical evidence establishing what, if anything, happens to a person after physiological death.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 270

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/20/2008 11:24:14 AM

luckydog1

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"Because there's no evidence of any sort of continuation of self after death. Nor can I even conceptualize it. Any time I start to think that there might be a possibility, an endless stream of contrary evidence appears. No amount of wishing can change that fact. All thoughts, all the self talk we do is all done inside our heads - where the brain is. When it is shut off, thoughts, dreams everything is gone. "

Baby driver, isn't there a large collection of Andecotal evidence, from people who have died and been re-started. That "the dreams stop" as you said, seems not to be true. Sure it could also have a natural cause, so its not evidence of God, but it is andecotal evidence that the way you framed death is not exactly right.

(in reply to babydriver)

Post #: 271

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/20/2008 11:29:28 AM

Zensee

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The effects of near death trauma on living people provides precisely NO evidence for any continuation of being after death. If they were "restarted" they were still alive, ipso facto...

Z.

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Post #: 272

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/20/2008 11:36:42 AM

luckydog1

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Is that really an ipso facto. Sounds more like "they float if guilty...." logic to me.

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Post #: 273

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/20/2008 11:42:55 AM

Zensee

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No, it sounds like the "they aren't dead so what they experience is irrelevant to the question of life after death" kind of logic. You know, the real kind, based on quality evidence and objective reasoning.

Z.

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"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

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Post #: 274

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/20/2008 2:26:56 PM

babydriver

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"isn't there a large collection of Andecotal evidence, from people who have died and been re-started. That "the dreams stop" as you said, seems not to be true."

I've looked a lot at the near death experience but none of the people who've reported them were actually "brain dead" as in all electrical activity in the brain had ceased. So there is probably a rational explanation for them. Personally I wish there weren't I'd like them to all be true. But wishes don't really mean anything do they?

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 275

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/20/2008 4:17:03 PM

CuriousLord

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The most obnixious part about telling religious people that you're athiest is that so many believe you want there to be no God. Like you hate the idea of being able to earn eternal bliss and ultimate meaning or something.

I think it's hard for some to wrap their minds around the concept of believing in something that's painful just because it's true.

(in reply to babydriver)

Post #: 276

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/20/2008 4:53:18 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

Brutal atheists last century (or this)? Citations please?

Stalinist Russia and Maoist China might qualify as brutal.

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No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Zensee)

Post #: 277

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/20/2008 4:58:06 PM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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After the Holocaust, I believe it was Primo Levi who was asked how he could continue to believe. He said he preferred to take the leap of faith. I don't ask for miracles. I have them every time my son asks for a hug, every time my daughter has a new success. If they stop happening, that doesn't negate all of the gifts I have already received. In the words of the Seder song, Dayenu. It would have been enough.

Had he led us across the Red Sea but not given us manna in the desert, it would have been enough. Had he given us manna but not led us to the Promised Land, it would have been enough. And it would have been.

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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

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Post #: 278

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/20/2008 5:04:31 PM

dcnovice

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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

And no religion too

And no "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights," no antislavery movement, no Underground Railroad, no Civil Rights movement, no reconciliation process in South Africa . . .

Oh, and don't forget to close all those church-run homeless shelters, soup kitchens, and hospitals.

You'll also need to pitch any ancient texts preserved by monks during the Dark Ages.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 279

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/20/2008 5:28:55 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I think it's hard for some to wrap their minds around the concept of believing in something that's painful just because it's true.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. You are positing a belief in absence, not an absence of belief.

I suspect you know by now that I have no problem believing in something that's painful.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 280

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