RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective

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NorthernGent -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:20:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aviinterra Atheists and agnostics forget that their belief in non-belief is a belief. Hmmm, I doubt the above is relevant. I personally do not care whether there's a god. As such, I haven't put a label on myself, but others might define this as agnostic. Quite frankly, were god to present himself in front of me it wouldn't change my life one iota - ditto in the event someone proved his non-existence. To equate this as being akin to a belief in religion doesn't make sense. I have an opinion; those who believe in god have all sorts of rules, procedures and moral obligations, which renders the belief in god far removed from a "really don't give a fuckist" or an agnostic.

atursvcMaam -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:24:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NotAnExit2 It is impossible to prove the existence of God, just as it is impossible to prove you aren't just a brain in a jar and your life is an artificial simulation. It is also impossible to disprove the existence of God. This statement actually proves the existence of God, and defines Him/him or Her/her you may be able to prove that your mind exists, and can dismiss everything else as unprovable or a blank slate where the mind has created this "artificial simulation". You are God, and everything else is a variable. What, You say? look at the questions that would be answered: Who created the earth? Your mind did. Why should I be moral? You created the rules. Why should science follow predictable rules? it does what You expect it to. Do i believe in God? i might have been slightly misleading, it might not be You, but me. because sometimes You go away, but i am always here. Careful, though, it is a great title but a heck of a lot of responsibility, because, after all, it's all Your fault, too.

Alumbrado -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:25:09 AM)
quote: Experience is what predictions are based on. There is a classic experiment in operant conditioning where a cat was dropped into a Skinner box. Doing what cats do, it rubbed up against this, pawed at that, rolled around, and finally bumped the food lever. Upon the next visit, it repeated the same behaviors, and was rewarded for remembering its experiences with more food. Now the religious cat continued to repeat those behaviors faithfully, and even added extra ceremonial ones (involving chanting, reading from old scraps of paper, burning incense as well as heretical cats, and so forth). The scientific cat eliminated useless steps from the original experience until it had the only useful behavior...going straight to the food button and pushing it. (And there was one special breed of cat who figured out how the food thingy worked, and made other cats give him money in return for 'producing' the food). None of those processes told any of the cats a thing about whoever made the food though.

batshalom -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:25:21 AM)
Not long ago, I heard a scientist explain faith vs. science in a simplictic elegant fashion. No one is asserting that science can explain everything. Faith needs no proof - it's what faith is.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:25:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: aviinterra Atheists and agnostics forget that their belief in non-belief is a belief. Hmmm, I doubt the above is relevant. I personally do not care whether there's a god. As such, I haven't put a label on myself, but others might define this as agnostic. Quite frankly, were god to present himself in front of me it wouldn't change my life one iota - ditto in the event someone proved his non-existence. To equate this as being akin to a belief in religion doesn't make sense. I have an opinion; those who believe in god have all sorts of rules, procedures and moral obligations, which renders the belief in god far removed from a "really don't give a fuckist" or an agnostic. For the purpose of keeping terms clear within this thread, I would like to observe that your philosophy would most likely be described as humanist. Agnosticism is not incompatible with humanism, but neither is it necessary for humanism.

atursvcMaam -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:26:35 AM)
I don't need faith to open doors or perform science. try it with Your eyes closed.

NorthernGent -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:28:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen I have experienced "God" or whatever word one might use. You became the Divine. I recall your experience and recognized it then as genuine. You are holy. Has Ellen been feeding the five thousand again? I keep telling her, "look, I know you're holy, but no one likes a show off". She'll get herself into trouble one of these days. Should see her walk on water, Rule, not so much as a toe wet and she makes Ted Neeley look like a poor man's Jesus.

RCdc -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:31:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Quite frankly, were god to present himself in front of me it wouldn't change my life one iota - ditto in the event someone proved his non-existence. So if god presented herself to you as some tall, well proportioned, 29 year old, blue eyed, s-type with long dark hair, her own pub, with the ability to weld, hang wallpaper, cooks like your mum and gives amazing head - that wouldn't change your life at all?[;)] quote: To equate this as being akin to a belief in religion doesn't make sense. I have an opinion; those who believe in god have all sorts of rules, procedures and moral obligations, which renders the belief in god far removed from a "really don't give a fuckist" or an agnostic. As a person of faith, I tend to get pissed off just as much as an agnostic or atheist may by being told that they have a 'belief' and tarnished with the same brush as many fundemental religions. Having faith doesn't mean I am any less me or change in anyway and I am not one for following rules and procedures 'just coz'. the.dark.

NotAnExit2 -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:32:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam quote: ORIGINAL: NotAnExit2 It is impossible to prove the existence of God, just as it is impossible to prove you aren't just a brain in a jar and your life is an artificial simulation. It is also impossible to disprove the existence of God. This statement actually proves the existence of God, and defines Him/him or Her/her you may be able to prove that your mind exists, and can dismiss everything else as unprovable or a blank slate where the mind has created this "artificial simulation". You are God, and everything else is a variable. What, You say? look at the questions that would be answered: Who created the earth? Your mind did. Why should I be moral? You created the rules. Why should science follow predictable rules? it does what You expect it to. Do i believe in God? i might have been slightly misleading, it might not be You, but me. because sometimes You go away, but i am always here. Careful, though, it is a great title but a heck of a lot of responsibility, because, after all, it's all Your fault, too. Very Nietzsche of you :) I suppose the next question is how do you define God?

Alumbrado -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:33:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam I don't need faith to open doors or perform science. try it with Your eyes closed. The point is, you are utterly unable to provide any verifiable examples of blind religious faith doing either of those things, so why demand such a standard from others when you can't deliver the goods yourself? Pray into existence real world, real time, replicable flight, and we'll talk (after you decide what to do with the JREF million of course).

atursvcMaam -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:34:19 AM)
By the way, whoever is responsible for Your existence did a lovely job. no harm intended, but i could not let it go without comment. :-)

DomKen -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:35:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado None of those processes told any of the cats a thing about whoever made the food though. And that is of course quite correct. Science cannot prove or disprove the supernatural. However, entirely IMO, eventually the absence of evidence does start becomeing evidence of absence. I can't establish it and there will always be gaps for god to hide in but for me at least I'm convinced.

bornsynner -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:37:40 AM)
all this bickering over whether one does or doesnt believe in the existence of a higher power?.. in the end, i say again, it doesnt matter if any of us 'believe'.. those that do have their reasons, those that dont have theirs... very few ppl will change their opinions in a later phase of life.. i love debate but most of this thread has had a circular thinking that would leave most ppl's head spinning.. as for how humanity was created, i can honestly say i dont know and to me, the fact that we're here is more important that how we got here.. i dont spend my days worrying about things i cant change and that just happens to be one of them

celticlord2112 -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:39:30 AM)
quote: However, entirely IMO, eventually the absence of evidence does start becomeing evidence of absence. As a matter of logic, the two positions are mutually exclusive and thus can never intersect.

LadyEllen -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:42:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen I have experienced "God" or whatever word one might use. You became the Divine. I recall your experience and recognized it then as genuine. You are holy. Has Ellen been feeding the five thousand again? I keep telling her, "look, I know you're holy, but no one likes a show off". She'll get herself into trouble one of these days. Should see her walk on water, Rule, not so much as a toe wet and she makes Ted Neeley look like a poor man's Jesus. Hmmmm. Whilst I refuted any notion that I might claim holiness, despite Rule's commendation, its becoming ever clearer that there might be uses for omnipotence. I wonder........ if I glare harshly towards Manchester........ Now, you want nice Ellen or vengeful Ellen NG? Mind you, wrong sort of question to ask here perhaps..... E

Rule -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:44:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro Rule: Hey, you have the floor. Make your case. This medium of words on a screen stands ready. Not going to do that. quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro Or can you not make your case even in your own terms? I am satisfied that I have. What myth in particular would you like to see the fact of established?

Rule -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:49:25 AM)
A solipsist...

NorthernGent -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:49:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark So if god presented herself to you as some tall, well proportioned, 29 year old, blue eyed, s-type with long dark hair, her own pub, with the ability to weld, hang wallpaper, cooks like your mum and gives amazing head - that wouldn't change your life at all?[;)] Assuming her passport and documents are in order, we'll get on fine......"god, beg.......yes, you god, feeding the five thousand is of no consequence 'round these parts, it's going to be a tight ship for you me lassie." quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark As a person of faith, I tend to get pissed off just as much as an agnostic or atheist may by being told that they have a 'belief' and tarnished with the same brush as many fundemental religions. Having faith doesn't mean I am any less me or change in anyway and I am not one for following rules and procedures 'just coz'. the.dark. Presumably, though, you subscribe to certain morals dictated by a belief in god?

kittinSol -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:51:01 AM)
Shameless hijack: I oscillate between atheism and agnoticism - but an ass like yours tempts me into believing that maybe, there is a god [8D] .

fluffyswitch -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/5/2008 9:51:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bornsynner all this bickering over whether one does or doesnt believe in the existence of a higher power?.. in the end, i say again, it doesnt matter if any of us 'believe'.. those that do have their reasons, those that dont have theirs... very few ppl will change their opinions in a later phase of life.. i love debate but most of this thread has had a circular thinking that would leave most ppl's head spinning.. lol my head spins whenever anyone even mentions religion in any form but then i'm stuck in a series of dichotomies anyway. i'm a pagan who still practices a lot of christian ritual because like it or not christianity is an exceptionally pagan religion. that bothers a lot of people on both sides, the christians and the pagans. i'm training to be a social scientist at a school that favors structuralism--religion, regardles of what people will tell you, from a social (not a pysch) perspective is all made up anyway. it's an institution just like economics and education. at the same time i fully embrace my belief. do i think it's rational? no. do i have answers about how god/dess created the world? no. do i really want to know? no. would it really change anything if i had all the answers in the world about the functioning of god/dess? no. Diety, by definition in most religious systems, is larger than ourselves anyway so it doesn't really matter if i fully understand as long as i still have faith that They understand Themselves. in the end it all doesn't matter, it's what you do with your time while you're here that matters.

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