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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/10/2008 5:13:35 PM   
Zensee


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Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Seeks - The experience of reality without the internal dialogue interfering is lost as soon as one tries to recall or describe it in language. Like trying to describe a cube to people living in two dimensions. That perception is too complex and multi dimensional to describe in words and the very act of engaging the internal dialogue banishes the experience itself.

That's why visionaries are so easily misunderstood.

A guy goes up the mountain, has an epiphany, tries to explain it in words to himself and his friends. "God told me that before we can judge another person we have to walk a mile in their sandals." His friends tell their friends, "If we exchange sandals we can properly judge one another, after about a mile or so". Their friends tell their friends, "There are some judges selling used sandals about a mile down the road..." etc. etc.


Z.


_____________________________

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/10/2008 5:29:51 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Wow.

OK, in for a penny in for a pound.

I think that it might help if we examine the fact that we are modeled after animals, mammals specifically. Someone is mentioning language actually affecting mental development. Interesting point. Very interesting.

Ever hear of a coon hound "barking treed" ? Coon hunters can tell, and they then go shoot the coon and that is that. But how can you not call that language ? It is language between a dog and a human.

Now can dogs actually understand speech, but their development is limited by the fact that they cannot speak ? You know science still can't tell why chimps and other primates can't speak.

Now we are wrestling with some exceedingly complex subjects. First of all who can say that a chimp does not speak ? To other chimps of course. But then they don't have chimpanese schools so we assume it is by instinct.

Is it a function of language that it is used to teach itself ? Does that define it ? Birds, dolphins, whales, they do actually have a language, but I think it is mainly instinct, and therefore we do not recognize it as such. It may be very rudimentary, but then all that is left is for us to draw the line.

OK, but we can talk, we can also type and drive, and now we got what is called body language. Now is that language or not ?

But spoken or written language is so precise. Let's consider Ebonics. Do they have a word for Ohms, Sheer stress, Dynamic current load ?

Is it fair to say that if they don't they don't understand those concepts ? I am not making a statement either way, I am asking you. Put it to the bone, if a language does not have a term for a certain concept, how is that concept conveyed to the people who only know that one language ?

This is the most solid of hijacks, and I don't really think anyone will mind, but the subject might change. This is right in line, but it is a natural extension. Just how much does the lack of linguistic abilities impair one's mental development ? Seems to me language comes first and then develops, like I said, it is used to teach itself.

Being a scientist is not a matter of a degree it is a matter of how you look at things.

My buddy had this dog. Half German Sheperd and half Wolf. Actually I think a dog like that is illegal to keep in some places. But none of my people give a shit what is legal. This was BY FAR the smartest dog I ever met. Yes I said MET.

Anyway, we taught him all of his body parts, ears, nose all that, and after a while his left from his right. We not only taught him to climb trees, but taught him to climb the one on the tree lawn and stay up there. It was a busy street at times and people would see this dog in the tree.

This dog got along with me really well, you see his favorite toys were beer cans and frisbees, and while I don't do frisbee, I am a good supplier of beer cans. We used to joke that he had an aluminum frame.

But back to the point, I think this dog understood English. I mean really. You could see it if you were talking about him, and no, you do not have to mention his name, but he would respond. Either by perking up or by coming to us, or his owner. This dog had one hell of a life though, he has been to more concerts than I have. This is not bullshit.

This dog also had facial expressions that were very distinct. VERY distinct.

The dog's name was Tech, and he knew it. Trying to stay on point here, some anyway..... I think he really did understand alot of what we said when we were talking. He understood commands really well and could at least sense when we were talking about him, if not actually understand it all. But he also had his language to us.

I am not talking about a dog that can tell you needs to go out, I am talking about a dog that can just open the door himself and doesn't need to be let out. The only problem with that is he didn't close it. I am not kidding. Teethmarks on the doorknob, I am serious as a fucking heart attack.

Now was Tech's mind able to grow into a human existence, but could not because of the lack of certain mandibular properties and the highly valued opposable thumb ?

It just got thicker, I just thought of it. What of people who are born deaf or blind ? Some, luckily very few are born both deaf and blind. Now what do you do ?

Issues worth study I think.

T

(in reply to Zensee)
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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/10/2008 10:21:42 PM   
atursvcMaam


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Status: offline 		   Please be so kind as to look up any words or expressions before Y/you choose to judge.
   i was terminated from a company several years ago for using an expression (non-racist) that my father had often used.  One of my co-workers was quite annoyed that we were called on to pay attention to very small details to try and expedite an overall process.  My response to him was "Joe, it is the niggling little details that make us the big bucks."  The supervisor walking past went to my supervisor, and complained that i was using racial epithets without getting specific. My company, a subcontract company, concerned about contract renewal, terminated me without any inquiry, as the contract company had a zero tolerance for racial comments.  My choice of words, and her misunderstanding made for a very uncomfortable situation for me.  in any instance i could not have corrected this without making the complaining supervisor look bad.  
     yes, words can hurt.  the perception and understanding that peoplle have or don't have can make an enormous difference.
      in terms of languages, and vocabulary making a difference in thought processes, most technical people from varied countries tend to have English or Russian as a second language, as this allows for terms involving electronics, aerospace, and communications to be easily used across different tables, and air traffic controllers most everywhere use English as their primary language.  French used to be (and may still be) the language of diplomacy, as it is a gentle sounding language, and almost everything said in french sounds sweet and sexy.
      

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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 2:17:03 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira
Seeks,
quote:

I dont find the question that the OP posed very interesting in that "hurt feelings" can be engendered by threat whether physical or verbal.


My point was more towards the investigation of how hurt feelings can be avoided by realizing we are hurting ourselves.
Then there is the idea that words can hurt you. I do not argue the point, as much as I do the insinuation that other peoples intent in choosing their words is what hurts. 

My dismissal of what I read into your OP was unintentionally arrogant, I think lol. I agree with your intent point. Language if you like is the bridge across which that "intent" is delivered.

The more the complexity required for language/thinking  to develop is considered the more impossible it seems to be. One cannot possibly exist without the other and if neither exist to start with how can either one have begun.The old prime cause, chicken/egg difficulty

There just must be more to our species than simple blind chance and random leading to highly organised chemical activity.
Human beings, when the problem is considered logically, just should not exist lol

(in reply to charmdpetKeira)
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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 3:31:29 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Aswad - I suspect there is a sort of feedback loop between language and abstract thought.


Yes, definitely. Just consider how the process of explaining things to others can help clarify it for yourself.

quote:

Symbols can be manipulated in novel ways that objects cannot and leads to new uses for things.


Yes. Which is what I mentioned to CuriousLord about combinators, though that's a more abstract view.

quote:

Also language allows us to make "things" out of immaterial concepts; feelings, values, behaviours.


Anything presented to our "internal database," along with abstractions made over that, and so forth. Note also that, as far as I can tell, virtually all input to the brain has some common pathways and means of representation. It makes sense that we should probably be able to represent anything, provided the requisite words and grammar are available to express it, with a few caveats like muted group theory.

quote:

Children are hard wired to learn language (including sign language), up until about age 7. A sad experient many centuries ago demonstrated this. Some monks thought that if children were not exposed to speech or written words they would spontaneously begin using the universal language we all had prior to the divisions caused by the erection of the Tower of Babel. Unfortunately it simply left them mentally undeveloped for life.


Yup. And it's sad that so few parents expose their children to other languages early on, given that it is so limited what we can learn later on, when the brain has taken down the scaffolding used to learn as a child. For instance, if you don't know how to make the sounds represented by "TH" in English by the time you're an adult, it is very hard to learn. The sound "h" is even harder. Sign language seems to be similar, and the same for tonal languages. I don't know sign language or any tonal languages, but I'd put in the time to lear a couple if I decided to have a kid, simply because I wouldn't want to limit their development potential.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Zensee)
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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 3:36:49 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

How do I do that? By using language. I engage in a dialogue with myself.


I sometimes do that. Other times, I don't. At times, the concepts are inexpressible in words so I have to skip the language.
Language is a representation that can help or hinder or both, but it is not the exact same thing as thought.
Most people I've spoken to can't fully seperate the thing and its representation, though.
Which seems to be part of how words can offend and hurt so easily.

That, and they can cause dissonances; that's another kind of pain, after all, and one few people ever learn to deal well with.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 3:46:03 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Seeks - The experience of reality without the internal dialogue interfering is lost as soon as one tries to recall or describe it in language. Like trying to describe a cube to people living in two dimensions. That perception is too complex and multi dimensional to describe in words and the very act of engaging the internal dialogue banishes the experience itself.


Bingo. And sometimes, this is a good thing. Certain perceptions would be like the lesser cousins of basilisks if we could express them.

It's also why most religions tend to fail: someone grasps something profound, and tries to pass it on to others, but uses words, and thus fails. Koans can go a bit further, but not all the way. Disciples are much the same thing; at best, they get close. Then somebody comes along and tries to codify things, and suddenly every semblance of the original messsage is lost until someone later follows in those exact same mental footsteps, and arrives at the same place. At times, I wonder whether that's the true meaning behind the Second Coming.

quote:

That's why visionaries are so easily misunderstood.


Some of us abandon the idea of trying to be understood, and just leave it at commentary instead.

Then we see somebody whipping a horse and finally lose the rest of our marbles.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Zensee)
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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 4:17:27 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

My buddy had this dog. Half German Sheperd and half Wolf. Actually I think a dog like that is illegal to keep in some places. But none of my people give a shit what is legal. This was BY FAR the smartest dog I ever met. Yes I said MET.


The breed you are describing is a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog.

It isn't a hybrid, and hasn't been crossbred for 300+ generation; it's a recognized breed of dog.

My only reason for not owning one is that the cops shoot illegal dogs in Norway, and some moron lobbied to have them outlawed.

And, yes, they are generally about as intelligent as the one you describe. Some do a great job of raising the kids that "own" them, by teaching them wilderness skills and life wisdom. Unlike many dog breeds, their instincts are tameable and predictable. For instance, if you show it a child, and it makes the body language signs they do when dealing with puppies, it will die before anything hurts that kid. Literally. And if it doesn't make those signs, you can forget about having kids around it: they're prey. Predictable. Some of these have learned to dive and think that's great fun. They learn quickly, but lose interest in pointless repetition.

They read human body language, and can learn to understand an impressive amount of language.

You can train one to do bodyguarding work. Hell, the army has trained them to go on patrols unsupervised. The problem being that their body language and the nuances of their vocalizations are so expressive that they rarely actually bark, so that idea was canned. Forget about regular training, though. If the trainer isn't intending to do harm, then the dog will just be amused by the threatening gestures made. And if the tainer is intending to do harm, well... don't try this at home, kids... I've seen a grown, tall, muscular man, dressed in protective clothing, doing his damned best to keep one of these from his throat, while another goes for his hamstring.

Really, they don't take kindly to violence, but they know the real deal from the fake.

Patient as hell, too. And loyal. One of them was working with severely retarded kids and almost had his tongue bitten off. Didn't bite back. Just yelped and pulled back. Still friends with the kid when it got back from the vet. Go well with the family, too, if you treat it right. Expect other people and animals in the neighbourhood to learn that your family (including any other pets) has Mafia protection, or rather, the next best thing. If a bear shows up, the dog will probably provoke the bear to chase the dog in order to save the family.

But there are drawbacks, too.

They need training and a qualified owner. Period. They need exercise. They need intellectual stimulation. They need discipline and a clear pack structure. They cannot be left alone for extended periods of time, or they will get nervous, start destroying furniture, and spend a lot of time driving the neighbours absolutely insane by howling like a wolf does. As far as I know from what I've been told, you can't break them of that habit. They can deal with parts of the "pack" going away for a while, but if everyone goes away, they become miserable. For most of us, who don't have a homemaker, this translates to the dog coming along, and not being left in the car, either.

You can train it to behave for a visit to the mall, but will mall security make an exception from "no dogs allowed" for you?

Anyway, bit of a digression, but it does illustrate some of the communication abilities, thoughts and instincts of this lovely breed of dog.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 4:34:48 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
By using language. I engage in a dialogue with myself.

I sometimes do that. Other times, I don't. At times, the concepts are inexpressible in words so I have to skip the language.

I fail to understand how you can manipulate concepts without an internal language ?
For example a primitive human who has no language is hungry and sees an animal. I can see that his experiences will allow him  in some way to assess the situation and try to turn it to his advantage. Basic thinking
He has seen others injured/killed after all. No internal language available or required .

When you are sitting alone thinking what is it that you can  examine without using unspoken verbal images ? I suppose if such things exist then you wont be able to tell me lol. But I cant grasp how such things can possibly exist.

When I tried to learn maths, say basic calculus or elementary permutations/combinations if I  couldn't  internally "verbalise" or mentally draw the problem then I struggled to progress.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/11/2008 4:48:06 AM >

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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 4:55:59 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		I was beginning to think that maybe language is like a computor address that allows our experiences to be accessed and processed but ulitimately those experiences, in the form of mental images, need to be interpreted.
How ? By language. NO?

For example I just looked at the eff Chavez post.
Immediately my mind "told me" that Chavez had done something that the poster didnt like. Not difficult to work out lol
The import part is "my mind told me".....in language.

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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 5:13:22 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Going on a bit now ......
Take the word concept.
I can read a sentence with that word in it and work out  what that sentence means almost instantaneously.

But if I slow the process down when I arrive at the word concept I actually interpret it using other words ie by using language
concept = an abstract perception
perception = that which can be mentally considered.
and so on ad infinitum.

When in a sentence a word is misused a balance is upset but it is still possible to work round and fathom out what was meant.
Language is all IMO. Without it we would be instinctive things...like Gorillas only more dangerous.

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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 5:30:57 AM   
Zensee


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Status: offline 		Seeks - There are several styles of internal dialogue. There's that "doing sums out loud" one where you consciously talk yourself through an activity. There's the analytical voice. But mostly there's a subconscious chatter, a narration by the ego, which maintains your world view moment by moment. A checklist of what we are and what the world and everything and everyone in it is.

Language is mostly linear and works quite well as the tool of the narrator. But when the narrator is silent thoughts can take on added dimensions, like a circle becoming a sphere. But our language can only accurately describe circles - spheres must be experienced in person, they cannot be described to the self, let alone to others.

Math is also a language, precise and universal, describing relationships of number and shape. Children who are given the tools to understand this early on, during the same period as verbal languages are learned, have a substructure of understanding that allows them to function much more easily than those of us who were hounded with times tables and sums.

Z.


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"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 6:26:12 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I fail to understand how you can manipulate concepts without an internal language ?


You are not alone in that regard, as most people seem unable to wrap their head around it, let alone do it.

Consider for a moment a lawnmower and a lawn. To mow the lawn, you just do it. You don't need a picture of the lawn, or a picture of the lawnmower, or a movie showing the lawn being mowed with the lawnmower. Language is like these pictures (data) and this movie (combinators). Thought is like the actual, real lawn and lawnmower, and the actual, real doing of the mowing.

With language, we've just become so accustomed to holding these symbols in our minds while we think, that it has become limiting. It is like the kink that turns into a fetish. A kink is when we have a connection between sex and a symbol (such as an act, or a piece of clothing, or an idea, or a smell, or whatever). A fetish is when we need the symbol to deal with the real thing (i.e. when you can't get hot from sex without the kink). The power of words and the power of kink is pretty much the same thing. The limit of words and the limit of fetishes is also pretty much the same thing. And it can be deconditioned, although that takes time.

quote:

When you are sitting alone thinking what is it that you can  examine without using unspoken verbal images ? I suppose if such things exist then you wont be able to tell me lol. But I cant grasp how such things can possibly exist.


It allows one to ponder the irreducible truths of the universe and the human experience. It lets you look through Nietzsche's abyss into the void beyond. To, in effect, deconstruct the veil of lies that obscure reality from our view and remove the delusions that attend any language based perception of reality. To grasp the irreducible and ultimate fact of the futiliity and pointlessness of all things, and the fully arbitrary and subjective nature of everything humanity holds to be self-evidently true. To see the horrors of infinity laid bare.

If you stretch, you can even touch nothing for a fraction of a second before your mind recoils.

Then you can become a crazy, arrogant bastard like myself and be happy for all the people who haven't done just that, at the same time as you can shake your head at some of the utterly insane things they do (or don't do) and the vapid justifiications for it. After a while, you may get to pride yourself on certifiable insanity and the total loss of mental integrity and cohesion as everything comes apart at the seams. Or you rebuild and become a messiah to some and an antichrist to others. In the end, you probably end up finding some guy whipping a horse that has served him faithfully and something fundamentally human in you revolts at the sheer affront to humanity, and bash his head in before hugging the horse to calm it down.

Either that, or you tell your best friend to turn you in because you can't stand to ask your wife to make you a martyr to your cause.

There happens to be some really neat stuff in there, too, and as long as you don't dig too deep, it's all good.

Most of it, though, the world will fight hard to prevent you from bringing back with you.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 6:37:59 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Math is also a language, precise and universal, describing relationships of number and shape. Children who are given the tools to understand this early on, during the same period as verbal languages are learned, have a substructure of understanding that allows them to function much more easily than those of us who were hounded with times tables and sums.


Math doesn't just describe relationships of number and shape. In fact, they touch on the fundamentals of human thought, and perhaps even the fundamentals of reality (there's something uncanny about Euler's Identity, for instance). If our spoken languages had included mathematical operators, we would be able to use math to deal with fundamentally human concepts. And it would obviate the need to teach math in school. That's part of the reason why I am trying to factor them as well as possible for inclusion in a conlang I'm working on, as I think they're pretty fundamental. We couldn't arrive at them in our evolutionary past, so no language really contains this sort of expressiveness, but they are fundamental in terms of how we think and how reality works, and they are implicit in language. Course, unless I ever find others who'd care to use the language as an experiment, it'll just be a fun hobby, but if it happens, it could be great.

As for children who learn it early... Some Russians in my class back in high school commented that they'd been taught math as a language, and did not think in Russian while doing math work. Some human supercalculators have noted that numbers have distinct shapes to them that they can combine and manipulate in much the same way as we might visualize a house or imagine the sensation of being touched. And people who work in other radixes than base-10 are quite able to deal with the resultant larger quantities. I would imagine that if one had a language with 60 consonants and 20 vowels in 3 tones, such that a CV or VC syllable could represent one digit in base-3600, it would be trivial to mentally manage much larger numbers than the average Joe can.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 6:46:41 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		I can begin to see what you are getting at but I still have problems with it.
Lets take the colour red. Most will now have an image in their mind. That image cannot be described in familiar words. Exclude a technical definition.
The colour red is a symbol and simple languges have been constructed using say red = stop. green = go.
So a collection of basic symbols ie letters are used to construct words, more complex symbols, which add up to a language, more complex still. As that language is developed it interacts internally in a very special way and our brains develop as a consequence. That what I think anyway.

The letter "a" has no meaning. Its a symbol that has to be committed to memory.
In the word Ardvark  a mental image has come into existence. ie thought has taken place.
If I said "the Ardvark red yellow green"  what would happen? Not a lot. Individual images would exist but collectively no coherent thoughts would be generated
If I said the Ardvark is going to bite you. Lots would happen as a consequnce of your thoughts.
So we get
language in -> language interpreted -> action or  linguistic response.
So the process goes on and on and on.
As new words are created or learned the brain changes IMO
In the transition from no language to language the brain went thru' a colossol change IMO. Isn't that consistant with that part of the brain that processes intellectual activity being the newest?

I accept the unconscious side of our mental activity exists but it serves to shape what we are only after learning by language has taken place.
Whether we have  hard wired bits ie there at birth I dont know. I rather doubt it.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/11/2008 7:04:32 AM >

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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 6:54:12 AM   
charmdpetKeira


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
My dismissal of what I read into your OP was unintentionally arrogant, I think lol. I agree with your intent point. Language if you like is the bridge across which that "intent" is delivered.


Seeks,
Your comparison, of a bridge is an excellent way of putting it.
 
Even if the dismissal was intentional, it’s all good; just didn’t want you thinking I intended for people to use this power for “evil”. :)
 
I am really enjoying reading all of these ideas, though I wish I was better able to understand some of the terminology.
 
Zensee,

quote:

Language is mostly linear and works quite well as the tool of the narrator. But when the narrator is silent thoughts can take on added dimensions, like a circle becoming a sphere. But our language can only accurately describe circles - spheres must be experienced in person, they cannot be described to the self, let alone to others.


This I can relate to, and it would seem to confirm my speculations that I am using the term “thought” in a differing way. I would call what you are describing an experience, not a thought.
 
I watched a tape a while back, where a person giving a lecture made the statement “We don’t think with our minds, we think for our minds.” It seems possible, thinking with our minds is not possible to do in terms of thinking as we know it, therefore would not even require language.

edited to add; again as we know it.

k


< Message edited by charmdpetKeira -- 2/11/2008 6:57:51 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 6:55:30 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		With regard to Aswad's vision of despair and the ultimate futility of all things, well I believe I can experience that but for me that perception does not transcend language.

Rather like being able to see myself dead and getting frightened as a result.
Dont like it but can do it.

adding: I dont agree with Aswad's lawn mower story either. A learning process has taken place in order to use a lawn mower. I rather doubt a primitive desert dweller would naturally know what to do with it
A chimpanzee is just as likely to attack it or try to mate with it.
We need to learn. We can only learn thru' imagery. The stuff of those images is words/language. The syntax of thought.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/11/2008 7:30:38 AM >

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 7:01:48 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Runes are interesting in the case of non lingual thought too.

Each rune is a symbol complex of aspects of the spiritual/cosmic truth. Whilst we can say "this rune has the following meanings" and then describe those individual meanings in words, one cannot describe the entire complex of meanings in words. In fact, it is only through abandoning the word descriptions of each aspect and combining those aspects through meditation without words, that one can get a grasp on the rune itself - this is a difficult and elusive process. And yet, not be able to relate that grasp to others, because the nature of the runes is beyond human vocabulary.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 7:15:49 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		How then do you perceive a rune?
How did you learn what a rune is?

You see this is a perfect case in point. I do not know what a rune is. Nothing happened in my brain other  than to call up the "dont know" pre existing  response and then think to try to catch her out. lol

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Language; the Human Condition - 2/11/2008 7:53:14 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

How then do you perceive a rune?
How did you learn what a rune is?

You see this is a perfect case in point. I do not know what a rune is. Nothing happened in my brain other  than to call up the "dont know" pre existing  response and then think to try to catch her out. lol


Thats the thing though Seeks - I cant tell you! I can tell you in words the various aspects of a rune, but to know the rune itself requires moving out of the realm of words. The closest thing thats easily understood perhaps is that when you get close you experience the rune in the same way as you might experience sunshine on your face, the sensation of falling or flying, stillness in nature or indeed frenetic activity. Its not something I can relate, its more of a feeling - and its very elusive to succeed because of our tendency to try to verbalise our thoughts; as soon as one does that, its gone.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 60
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