RE: Astrology (Full Version)

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luckydog1 -> RE: Astrology (2/12/2008 5:47:52 PM)

What would they be denying?   That the universe is anything but Deterministic?  How do you figure we are anti entropic?  Do you think your thougths and feelings are anything but the accidental byproduct of Chemical reactions?  How could they be anything but an accidntal by product of chemical reactions?  Unless you think you have a soul of some sort.  Not being able to predict, does not make something other than predetermined. 

There is the size thing, and also, the fact tht you can't measure the location and vector of a particle at the same time.  But because we can't know does not mean it is not happeneing.

Surley you don't think you actually have any sort of free will in your accidental byproduct thinking, we are in no way at all anti Entropic.  Unless you get into my personal theological musings that Life itself is a by product of anti entropic energy/ which I suspect is the divine.   But that's religion, not science.




luckydog1 -> RE: Astrology (2/12/2008 5:53:06 PM)

That was written, by Assimov in the Foundation trilogy.  The Mule, fucked up all the predictions.  But in fact the Mule was a mutation, brought about by a change to a forming infants DNA for a paticular physical reason, of which the chain of events could theoretically be traced back to the instance of creation.

Consider the simplest of 2 reactions.  2 particles encounter each other.  They either, react according to Scientific law, with no variation or Some force decides what they do.  Every single reaction of any kind that ever occurred is under that same principle.  It was either scientifically required, or some force choose it.  The reactions in your brain that give rise to your thoughts operate under the same rule.  If your an Athiest.




Aneirin -> RE: Astrology (2/12/2008 6:12:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: andrewmac

There.

Their.

They're.

You wrote, "it is wrong to assume something is pseudo science until all the facts are known."   Does that make any sense, even to you?



From my understanding, all the facts are not known. One cannot take what forces and elements we know about and there debunk something the ancients believed in. Perhaps it is we, that is scientists, do not yet know everything. I will keep my personal belief and understanding until I see otherwise based upon logic I can see, not anothers.

quote:


I'm serious, not trying to insult you.  You are defending a person with a firm belief in astrology....and your argument in her favor is that astrology hasn't been disproved yet, all the facts are not known.  Well, if the facts are not all accounted for, what is the logical basis for the belief?



Does everything have to be logical ? Yes, no etc. Is there not room in life for shades in between, inderterminate values?
quote:



If there isn't enough evidence for DISbelief, is there enough evidence to say, "I'm stubborn because I was born a Scorpio"?


Maybe the understanding that this lady was stubborn, might well have been to do with what others have observed of her and cited her Sun sign. Not saying whoever might have said this knew what they were talking about beyond the simple everyday fun stuff one may find as a space filler in a periodical.
quote:



You cite scientists who have religious beliefs, but I don't know of many well-educated persons whose religion leads them to make assertions that their lives are predetermined in some fashion at birth.  I'll take your word for it that they do exist.


Scientists do accept the predetermination that they might age and die, some think that will just be it, others believe something else. A belief based upon the understanding that they do not know everything and may it be, the biggest question as to where one goes when they die , will never be known.

As to 'fortune telling' via astrology, that I have little interest in as I prefer to take life's challenges as they arrive.Astrological pre determination, if it is accurate, may only be accurate for that given time and space. A fraction of time later, everything changes and with that the future.

quote:


No doubt many scientists are ready and eager to test any proof of astrology's validity, should any crop up.  I'm not saying for certain that it's bunk, just that the overwhelming evidence says so....leading me to wonder how this person's education let her ignore the facts she was presumably taught.


I would be surprised to find any respected scientific mind got involved in the astrology debate. It like global warming theory is too controversial , if that mind was open to other ideas, saying that might very well be the death of their career down to ridicule.

Has a person's education level mean they have to exclude thought in other directions?

quote:


Thanks for playing. Here's your sign.


Oh, I do wonder what that sign was before it was deleted, obviously something not nice else it would not have been deleted.




CuriousLord -> RE: Astrology (2/12/2008 7:39:20 PM)

Superstitious people just perfer to be crazy for whatever reason or another.

It used to bug me like hell, but they are awfully easy to manipulate.




Alumbrado -> RE: Astrology (2/12/2008 7:52:08 PM)

quote:

From my understanding, all the facts are not known. One cannot take what forces and elements we know about and there debunk something the ancients believed in.


That is pretty much how debunking works. People believe in all sorts of things... some of which certainly fall into the category of bunk.  So the question isn't can anything ever be debunked, the question is has astrology of any stripe proven its claims beyond that rational threshold?

quote:


Perhaps it is we, that is scientists, do not yet know everything.

Not only is that a given, but it has nothing to do with whether something else is right or wrong.

quote:


I will keep my personal belief and understanding until I see otherwise based upon logic I can see, not anothers.


Logic isn't defined by one person (and by the way, the study of the rules of logic has been around since the ancients).

Keeping personal beliefs is fine.. expecting others to accept them usually requires a certain amount of persuading.  In my case, I'm awfully persuaded by anyone who has won the JREF million...[;)] 




slaveboyforyou -> RE: Astrology (2/12/2008 7:56:17 PM)

quote:

Maybe I missed something in college.  I came across someone who felt she had to make a point of having a college education, and that she was a "published" author.
She also said something like "I'm a Scorpio, so that means I'm stubborn".  Several other chip-on-the-shoulder type of assertions of independence followed, the usual "I'm not a doormat" stuff....as if a pushy type is going to be deterred by such a statement. 

Now...this is not some airhead kid. This is an adult woman, presumably with a life and a job. 

So, can anyone explain this to me?  How do you reconcile a belief in a pseudo-scientific determinist philosophy, then vociferously insist that you are completely SELF-determined?  How does someone proud of being educated completely reject the massive scientific evidence completely debunking astrology?


Do I smell rejection in this post?  Did someone not get the reply they were looking for from an email, or did someone not get a reply at all?  Maybe I missed something in college, but why the fuck do adults care what other adults believe or don't believe in?   




FangsNfeet -> RE: Astrology (2/12/2008 8:31:46 PM)

It's funny when people decide how they should act based on there date of birth. "This is when I was born. These are the guildlines I am to follow in my behavior and manners bast on my birth day."

When one is too afriad of just being themselves, I guess astrology is the answer.




kittinSol -> RE: Astrology (2/12/2008 8:37:51 PM)

Nah... astrology's not about that. Think of it as a harmless hobby. The opposite of weapon collecting, perhaps.




DesFIP -> RE: Astrology (2/12/2008 8:49:01 PM)

Why would her being an adult who can capably manage her own life mean she can't believe contradictory things? She's human, this is what humans do, operate on illogical systems. We put emotions in front of cold, hard facts when making decisions because we want to be happy. If we were logical, then we would put financial success at the top of our lists and we'd all be in the finance industry instead of small shopkeepers, librarians, teachers, artists etc.




Nineveh -> RE: Astrology (2/12/2008 9:03:27 PM)

Why does financial success strike you as the most logical goal DesFIP?




kittinSol -> RE: Astrology (2/12/2008 9:04:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh

Why does financial success strike you as the most logical goal DesFIP?


(It screams 'Taurus' to me.)




Nineveh -> RE: Astrology (2/12/2008 9:27:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh

Why does financial success strike you as the most logical goal DesFIP?


(It screams 'Taurus' to me.)


To me it says Queen of Pentacles, but as  I said, I'm more Tarot oriented.  Definitely an earth sign though.




kittinSol -> RE: Astrology (2/12/2008 9:34:19 PM)

You know... this could be interesting...




detroitsearcher -> RE: Astrology (2/13/2008 11:41:08 AM)

I have met some airheads into astrology, hey, 1970s!

Next you'll be telling me there are no pet rocks!

I don't think reading your horoscope makes you a believer in akashic determinism.

Being intelligent and saying you are a "scorpio" doesn't make you dumb, or even "believe" in astrology. They are just trying to help you understand them. Like we reference myth.







freyjasdottir -> RE: Astrology (2/13/2008 12:01:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Maybe I missed something in college.  I came across someone who felt she had to make a point of having a college education, and that she was a "published" author.
She also said something like "I'm a Scorpio, so that means I'm stubborn".  Several other chip-on-the-shoulder type of assertions of independence followed, the usual "I'm not a doormat" stuff....as if a pushy type is going to be deterred by such a statement. 

Now...this is not some airhead kid. This is an adult woman, presumably with a life and a job. 

So, can anyone explain this to me?  How do you reconcile a belief in a pseudo-scientific determinist philosophy, then vociferously insist that you are completely SELF-determined?  How does someone proud of being educated completely reject the massive scientific evidence completely debunking astrology?


Do I smell rejection in this post?  Did someone not get the reply they were looking for from an email, or did someone not get a reply at all?  Maybe I missed something in college, but why the fuck do adults care what other adults believe or don't believe in?   


I think we have a winner....big deal if she mentions being a Scorpio in her profile what difference does that make to her education or livlihood?




Enigma2yu -> RE: Astrology (2/13/2008 12:49:07 PM)

[sm=banghead.gif]   Yeah, why would anyone care about people embracing  ignorance and superstition, or rejecting logic and common sense....what harm has that ever caused?[sm=banghead.gif]




kittinSol -> RE: Astrology (2/13/2008 1:03:28 PM)

Well, we can argue that religion is a superstition that has caused much harm; but I don't see how, where or when astrology did [;)] . Nothing wrong with scepticism, mind you.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Astrology (2/13/2008 1:06:44 PM)

Is it not true that alleged Astrological influences are a consequence of "apparent" star juxtapostions in the sky.
In fact the stars are not juxtaposed and you can take it from me that they are a rather long way from one another. Whats more some say they are separating at a rapid rate.

quote:

Zensee
Holding a mechanistic view of the universe does not equate to "absolute determinism". Our weather is a mechanism based on clear physical rules but is sufficiently chaotic that it becomes virtually unpredictable outside about a five day window, regardless of the quality of the data and it's interpretation.


If only Global Warmers would recognise this fact.
Maybe their stars forbid it !




LaTigresse -> RE: Astrology (2/13/2008 1:09:36 PM)

using FR..........

I just love love LOVE, when all the right brain thinkers collide with the left brain thinkers on threads like these!!




kittinSol -> RE: Astrology (2/13/2008 1:12:48 PM)

I was thinking about this the other day... I did a 'what sex is your brain' test on a BBC site recently, and it turns out I have a predominantly male brain. Ultra-surprising result or wot?!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml





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