Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (Full Version)

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BlackPhx -> Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 8:57:22 PM)

I suspect this will not make me the most popular person on the forums, but well, yanno, sometimes it just happens that way.

Most attribute the term Safe, Sane, Consensual to David Stein who coined it in 1984 for GMSMA and it has become a watch word for most of the BDSM community, especially when talking to outsiders or new explorers. The term Risk Aware Consensual Kink (RACK) is sometimes used as a substitute description. Both are good, but as watch words they don't really deal with the reality of WIITWD. For those who are new to the BDSM community (Newbies) these may be the first catch phrase that they encounter in their explorations. Some people really are new, they are just beginning to learn about their needs. Others may well have been playing alone for years, unaware there were others who share the same Kink or how to contact them if they suspected they were out there. Either way they like the rest of us need to know that what we desire is OK, what we seek is OK, and that there are different strokes for different folks.

So why do I say Not Always...

Not Always Safe: I play on the edge...a lot..more in the past than now, needles, cuttings, burnings, you name it...some of these things ARE dangerous. Infection, scars, emotional fallout, etc. are always a possibility. They are not for everyone. They can be done safely...but are NOT safe. It is not my place to judge whether a desire that a "person has for asphyxia play, castration (well not the females), or humiliation play is safe for them. It is only our place to point out some of the dangers, and possibly ways to go about it and survive. If you have experience share it. We can tell them how to deal with the aftermath but it is between them and their partner if they are going to do it. There are things that I enjoy Master has no experience with, I can only educate him about them if he has an interest and perhaps introduce him to someone who can show him how to do it. Frankly some stuff you just can't do for or on yourself. There are things he enjoys, I am just learning about and believe me I search for every bit of information I can find, both medical and scene wise to ensure I understand what is going to be done and the ramifications involved. 
 
Not Always Sane: Frankly little of what we do would be considered sane by the vanilla world. Some of it is not always considered sane by us. Few people look at a growing PE relationship and consider the slave or the Dom in their right minds or that it can be a healthy lifestyle. After all you are allowing someone else to choose what happens to you. Yes...I am careful...I didn't walk into prisons and stand on death row and yell kill me. I tried NOT to allow a Ted Bundy into my home when I was searching, I didn't go to sleep with my window open, me naked and a neon sign flashing outside that says rapist wanted. BUT I do place my precious flesh in the hands of a Master who will whip me, torture and torment me, take me to the very depths of my being and make me look, and then hopefully bring me back again.

Is it sane to want to take out and play with all the things that others keep buried or to poke at dark desires? Not always, not really. Our minds bury them for a reason...to protect our sanity...but some of us just HAVE to peek under those bandages and say ooooo while poking at it.

Most of us do this to a greater or lesser degree, even the "Vanilla" persons out there. We do it with Whips and Chains, they take out those little nasty bits and poke at them with a therapist, then again some of us do as well.

Always Consensual: Here I think is the main concept that I can accept. Consent. In BDSM consent is handled in many ways...from the sub who negotiates every scene..to the PE participant who has only one choice..accept or decline the collar. As a  slave once I have acknowledged that someone is my Master, that is the end of my negotiations. We may discuss things if he allows and he usually does, but ultimately the decision is his. I hate paddles with a passion, wooden ones, they bring up nothing but extremely bad memories..but...IF he decides that is how I am to be punished, or HE decides that it would please him to use a paddle on me...then it is HIS choice. I Know that eventually he will use it on me, he enjoys wood, and I will accept it, though I will probably not enjoy it in any way. Someone else can say...you use that on me and you will eat dust as I leave, or you are not going to ever use them. There are Dom's who will accept this....those Dom's are not for me.

Can Slavery, BDSM be mistaken for abuse? Yes. It is an extremely fine line, but the one thing that keeps you on the right side of it, is choice. I choose to do this and ultimately I have chosen to do this with someone I trust to have the same value for my life I do. The minute consent flies out the window even implied consent, it is abuse. A kiss is Battery under the law if the person does not consent to it.

Can I just walk away from that collar if things are not as I want them. No. I can't, others can depending on their dynamics. I will only choose to leave if my sanity or life is threatened. Not edge play, but him saying I am going to do this even though I know it will possibly cost you your life, then yeah I am out of there. Something like that was asphyxia play for me...because once my lungs go down, they hate restarting, yet and still Master does it, my trust in his care for my life and his attention to me when he is doing anything is such that I trust him. Would I let him perform a hysterectomy using a kitchen knife and a text book? See the dust?

We can have bad scenes, good scenes, Great Scenes. We have had scenes where both persons ended up angry at the other, one in tears and once lets just say neither one of us would have been wise to push the issue. We are humans. Accidents will happen, tempers will flare, things will go bad. We communicate and deal.

It is very easy to armchair quarterback on forums, we only have a limited amount of information and can extrapolate based only on our own experiences and dynamics. We can't even say really that one person is not a dominant or another is not a submissive, though there are always some willing to try. But we can't, not without actually knowing them and while we can base our opinions on their postings as to their experience levels and persona, please remember there are 45 year old male cops out there pretending to be 14 year old girls and pulling in predators daily. Behind a computer screen you can be anything and anyone you desire to be, it is only face to face reality becomes possible, and even there, things are not always what they seem.

Safe words are a form and symbol of consent. With them in place the sub/slave has a chance to say stop, I withdraw consent for what is being done, or I am in trouble, stop for a moment. We say an awful lot of things when our bodies are undergoing overwhelming sensations, including No. A Safe word helps define when consent is withdrawn. I have heard Dom's say if you use your safe word, it's over, not just the scene, but everything. That is emotional blackmail and removes  the very purpose of a safe word. Others have said I don't believe in them. Well since few other than the Amazing Kreskin (G) are telepathic, they have just limited their ability to know if their partner is in trouble. Consent is an ongoing action. Safe words are a tool facilitating that ongoing action.

Not Always Sane, Not Always Safe, Always Consensual. Its a way of Life.

poenkitten




AquaticSub -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 9:04:03 PM)

~Fast Reply~

Personally, when I think about SSC or RACK, I remember that climbing Everest, skinny dipping in Artic lakes, and a blind man hiking the Appalachian Trail (yes it happened and yes he made it) are considered sane and certain surgeries and med spas are considered safe. By comparsion, needle-play (provided you use sterile needles and dispose of them carefully) doesn't seem very dangerous to me.




SailingBum -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 9:16:58 PM)

Dunno about your post...one persons sane is another persons insane...just depends who is doing what to whom.  I enjoi knife play.... I 've had a quite a few girls say ..."YOUR gonna do WHAT" lol.  My reply is " Trust me it's gonna hurt you a hellofa more than me...

BadOne




laurell3 -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 9:20:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

My reply is " Trust me it's gonna hurt you a hellofa more than me...

BadOne


LOL that's hot and hilarious.




Leatherist -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 9:20:41 PM)

Humans are wierd.

There is no telling what they will do.

They nuked hiroshima,what makes you think they will be any more sane of ethical during sex?




fairerthanshe -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 9:25:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

Dunno about your post...one persons sane is another persons insane...just depends who is doing what to whom.  I enjoi knife play.... I 've had a quite a few girls say ..."YOUR gonna do WHAT" lol.  My reply is " Trust me it's gonna hurt you a hellofa more than me...

BadOne


Greetings,

This reminds me of the first time SJ and I were doing something on the edgier side.  I said, "I trust you completely." and he replied, "That was your first mistake."

Every once in a while, I will ask him at the end of some scene of torture with particularly cruel elements, "What was my first mistake?" with eyes barely open and he just laughs.

well wishes ~ fairer




Owner4SexSlave -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 9:32:59 PM)

Lions and tigers and bears.   This topic comes up from time to time.  Basically play that is not RACK or SSC, is "Edge Play"

Basically, I'm a firm believer if you engage in "Edge Play" it's important that both parties know the Risks involved, and do whatever safety measures can be done to minimize the risks.

It's nice to see that you pointed out Verbal Humilation and Emotional Fallout in the mix in your OP. 

One thing I enjoy doing are "Rape Scenes" and playing up the role of being some psycho rapist.   This is a very intense mentally and emotional experience.  It also carries with it Risks as well.   Even more so for those that have actually been a victime of abuse and rape.  Can trigger Post Traumatic Stress for instance.  This is an activitity I will not engage with somebody right away in a new relationship, and not without first having talked about.   

For some people "Rape Scenes" no longer feel like it's Edge play, because they have done it.  

I'm just using this as an example, but basically take any activity and push it to the edge.   Amazing things about limits, the more people do a certain activity, the closer they gravitate towards the edge.

Is it really SSC or RACK for two people sitting together in room naked to be burning each other with lit cigerettes?  Sure it leaves burn marks and the pain is intense.  Even with burning somebody with a cigerette comes the question about what areas of the body are or are not acceptable to burn.  There are places I totally think would be insane to burn somebody or be burned myself.   This Activitity is not something I engage in on a frequent basis, it's more like a one in a blue moon thing, when the mood is right.

With any activity, BDSM or vanilla there are risks.  Hell there are people taking skateboarding and other things to Extremes.  Bones get broken and people get really fucked up from time to time.   However, at least they are Sane enough to wear protective gear to minimize the risks.   Some people don't though, anybody who's ever watched "Jackass" knows what I'm talking about here.

The Question is how far are you willing to push things to the point that Death becomes more of a risk?  Personally, in my mind this is not very sane.   There are always consequences for actions.  I think one of the biggest things is being aware of the possible consequences and outcomes for choices and actions. 

Are you prepared to loose a loved one, or slave or somebody in your life that means something to you or not.   Are you prepared for the emotional pain and loss?  Are you prepared mentally in the event somebody becomes disabled or seriously ill, are you prepared to take responsibility.    This included emotional, legal, and moral responsibility for your own actions.

I wonder if there are any slave/subs that engage in hardcore edge play saying to themselves, if he kills me I hope to hell he rots in some jail cell.

Personally, things like gun play are not sane.  Guns in my book are not for play unless shooting at targets for the hell of it.   Personally, it would be a cold day in hell before I engaged in gun play.   I actually feel this way about gun play, if I accidentally killed somebody I loved because I was fucking around with them with a loaded gun, I'd probally point the gun to my own head and pull the trigger.  I would not to be able to deal with the mental and emotional damage.   Basically, I would not be able to live with myself.    Case in point where it's best to explore the the consequences mentally.   Know thyself type of stuff.   




BlackPhx -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 9:35:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

Dunno about your post...one persons sane is another persons insane...just depends who is doing what to whom.  I enjoi knife play.... I 've had a quite a few girls say ..."YOUR gonna do WHAT" lol.  My reply is " Trust me it's gonna hurt you a hellofa more than me...

BadOne


That in fact was the point. Just because it is something one person would not do, does not mean that it is not something another person couldn't enjoy. As long as each person involved is able to give informed consent and work to minimize the risk, how can we say SSC? It's not Always Safe, it's as safe as we can make it, It's Not always sane by our standards , but it is right for them, but it does always need to be Consensual. Do we need to negotiate every little thing? No. Do we need a way to stop it if something is going wrong? Yes! 

poenkitten




Honsoku -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 9:37:35 PM)

quote:

The minute consent flies out the window even implied consent, it is abuse. A kiss is Battery under the law if the person does not consent to it.


Unfortuantely, most states operate under the idea that if consent can not be reaffrimed, that it is automactically considered revoked. So by law, anything done to someone bound and gagged is battery. Lack of consent does not equal abuse as people do things to others all the time without their consent, yet without abusing them. Consider that people implictly consent to abuse all the time. This is part of the reason why I look a bit cross-eyed at SSC and RACK. Do whatever works for you, just don't blame anyone else if it goes to pot. [:D]





GreedyTop -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 10:16:39 PM)

poenkitten... excellent post :)  And I totally agree with the points you made (I really am gonna have to take a trip across the state *grin*).

Owner.. personally, I love gun play WITH SOMEONE I TRUST... but I've never claimed to be sane, either.. LOL




BlackPhx -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 10:55:47 PM)

Honsoku

In the majority of states if not all, what we do is illegal. Just as the majority of states contend that no one with a terminal disease has the right to take their own life and there are only 2 that accept that a doctor can aid a patient with a terminal disease to die, none accept that we can consent to assault. If we are dancing in a club, at home, in privacy of any sort, and we attract the attention of a Police Officer, the one doing the whipping is going to jail under DV if not assault and battery. No longer is it the perogative of the person who was assaulted and battered in a D.V. case to drop or press charges. Those charges are brought by the state. However, the courts will in many cases at least listen if the partner is affirming there was consent on both sides for BDSM. They will stop listening the minute the one assaulted or battered says I withdrew consent. Contracts and video tapes of consent aside, the moment consent is withdrawn, jeopardy applies. If something goes wrong and the person says stop and the person does not stop, legally it becomes, rape, assault and battery and can in certain cases be charged as attempted homicide. Not something fun to try and prove it wasn't. Not unless you can get a jury of your true peers, others who are Dominants, Subs, Edge Players, etc.

Many doctors in E.R.'s will if they feel it is legitimately a case of BDSM not assault and battery or DV turn a blind eye, patch up the person and send them on their way. If they even think that it may have been D.V., they are obligated to report it or try to obtain help for the victim. This is a judgement call as they are when it may be a case of child abuse but not a gunshot wound.

But the line you quoted was about Consent revoked becoming Abuse. It does, legalities aside, if there is no meeting of the minds, no consent, then one person is suffering abuse. Abuse of trust, of self,  and the destruction of the relationship dynamic. The law has ruled, at least here in Florida and a few other states that I know of, that even if in mid-coitus, 5 seconds from orgasm, your partner (male or female) says Stop, No, or I don't want this and you do not immediately withdraw..it is rape.  Consent withdrawn. Not pretty, not fair, but reality.

This is why I say ALWAYS Consentual. Everything else is negotiable. The safety we agree on, the intruments, the scene, the level of play, on the edge or safely slightly strawberry, everything is subject to what we involved in the dance at that moment consider Sane, but everything must contain a level of Consent.

poenkitten




BlackPhx -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 10:57:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

poenkitten... excellent post :)  And I totally agree with the points you made (I really am gonna have to take a trip across the state *grin*).

Owner.. personally, I love gun play WITH SOMEONE I TRUST... but I've never claimed to be sane, either.. LOL


And so the words come on over, I'll whip up some yummies and we can chat, laugh, and who knows...Tampa aint that far yanno.

poenkitten




BlackPhx -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 11:01:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

~Fast Reply~

By comparsion, needle-play (provided you use sterile needles and dispose of them carefully) doesn't seem very dangerous to me.


Your correct needle play is not really on the edge..well some can be, but there are many things that we do that are including asphyxia. Those were just laid out as examples.

poenkitten (who doesn't play with guns, but does play with sharps of many differing kinds)




GreedyTop -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 11:29:10 PM)

YAY! Road trip! now, if I could just get the time off.. *sigh*




GreedyTop -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 11:34:22 PM)

woohoo!  road trip! (now, just gotta get the time off..LOL)

sharps are fun :)  Breath play is fun :) floggers are fun :)

umm..ok, I'll stop now... LOL




Alumbrado -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/13/2008 11:51:15 PM)

Ahhh yes, the tired old pseudo expert 'no one can ever consent to any kind of assault, its duh LAW...' overly simplistic myth that has been debunked repeatedly. 

Folks might wat to consider getting their advice from a variety of reputable sources.




DesFIP -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/14/2008 5:21:59 AM)

One reason I'm glad we're not into s & m, nor edge play is I don't have to worry about using my emotional triggers against me. He doesn't do stuff he isn't sure I can't recover from. Nor is he willing to have to do the long term aftercare plus rebuilding trust to allow him to do  stuff that has resulted from accidental triggering in the past.




BlackPhx -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/14/2008 7:34:53 AM)

Actually I am not a psuedo expert, nor to I claim to be an expert of any type. Different states have different laws. MOST still have laws against sodomy still on the books. That does tend to be a consensual act between two people, and it is rare that a police officer will arrest you for it, but the law still stands and they will arrest you if it is in a public place. Federal Law overrides State Law and consensual gay sex isn't illegal anymore, thanks to the 2003 Supreme Court decision in Lawrence v. Texas  but you can be arrested for asking for it.You CAN be arrested for solicting prostitution, even if you do nothing not even offer cash for the act.  Currently there is a whole slew of people who have been arrested and/or are facing trial for sitting in a bathroom stall in a mall and tapping their feet and humming. No cash offered, no sexual act committed but the officials claim this is a signal that they want Homosexual contact. People like Sen. Larry Craig of Idaho, Florida state Rep. Bob Allen, Daytona site of one of the largest races in the US and Bike Week Host pulled this one last Christmas: "Chitwood said he was stunned at what investigators believe was happening in a bathroom at the mall. Authorities said men were engaging in sex acts -- both alone and soliciting others. But this time the others were undercover officers.

"They would tap their feet, zip their zipper, make all kinds of different noises, reach under the stall at the same time they were masturbating," Chitwood said."

Many states have exceptions to their battery laws, so that exhibitions such as Wrestling and Boxing can be held. Florida still has a non-consent law to assault and battery on the books and it has been enforced, it also has a strict policy on D. V. as do many states these days. If there is a mark on one of the persons involved, the other goes to jail. If BOTH bear marks, both go to jail and the judge sorts it out. No one has to press charges, someone from outside the home can call them hearing a noise that concerns them or seeing something that does. That state Prosecutors office decides if prosecution is neccesary. If you can convince them it was consensual they generally won't. Oh and don't forget to get that models release if you video tape, it can be used against you as one man found out recently when he tied up and tormented his wife in Florida. He claimed it was BDSM that they had engaged in since the start of the relationship, she said..'Nope, I didn't Consent"..guess whose dealing with the legal system and not in a happy way.

But please, refer to the following in CM's own archives for a bit more: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for abusi... - 12/11/2007 10:51:47 PM Sex Crimes or Sex Games in Chattanooga - 11/30/2007 5:24:25 PM 
 
I am not an expert by any means, but I am smart enough to talk to people who are experts, lawyers, police officers,  prosecutors, and people who choose this lifestyle. I read, stay current on news that affects me and my Master, and our friends. I have my opinions based on information I have garnered or experienced, and I will post them. Take from them what you find relevant to your life if anything and leave the rest.

poenkitten (a retired Spouse Abuse Rape Crisis Counselor among other things she is)




GreedyTop -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/14/2008 7:47:44 AM)

oops...deleted cause I'm a goof..




Alumbrado -> RE: Not always Safe, Not Always Sane, Always (2/14/2008 8:10:42 AM)

quote:

Different states have different laws. MOST still have laws against sodomy still on the books.


ALL of which were struck down by the US Supreme Court in Lawrence, as I've posted many times. The diversion about prostitution and public places is a straw argument since no one is saying that what we do in the privacy of our homes between two consenting adults with no money changing hands falls into either of those categories...(but there are plenty of people still incorrectly claiming that all of what we do is illegal).

Domestic violence is not the issue, unless someone is trying to claim that what we do consensually is DV. Amazing that anyone couldn't grasp the difference between freely given consent and an abuse victim not wanting to press charges.

Withdrawal of consent is another straw argument, since I don't see anyone saying that withdrawn consent is the same as actual consent.

The issue is that statements such as 'Unfortunately, most states operate under the idea that if consent can not be reaffirmed, that it is automatically considered revoked. So by law, anything done to someone bound and gagged is battery'.and 'In the majority of states if not all, what we do is illegal'  create an untrue impression....and the fundamental point of law is that people most certainly can and do consent to battery all the time.

Much of WIITWD is in fact, quite legal and the few cases of prosecution in the absence of clear neglect, abuse, money involved, extreme injuries/death, etc. are obvious travesties. 
For us to start buying into the false notion that we are criminals is to grease the skids for them to become the norm.






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