RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus

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lauren0221 -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 7:42:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol I cannot comprehend that people don't see the correlation between gun ownership and gun rampage. It's easier to buy a gun than a bottle of wine: and the results are there for all of us to see. It's quite obvious that it's people with guns that kill people - the figures speak for themselves. Of course, if people choose to continue with this folly, they have to be prepared to put up with the consequences, such as the lastest massacre which made the subject of this thread. And well, people want to continue owning guns: they have made their choice. The coffin industry continues to profit, so it's not all bad, I suppose. The trouble with strict gun regulation, is that it only keeps guns out of the hands of honest people. Criminals will continue to have access. I am with Jeff on this issue.

kittinSol -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 7:45:32 AM)
Why does it work everywhere else?

Jeffff -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 8:01:21 AM)
Largely because elsewhere is either a small homogenized nation or a nation with no history of gun ownership. While the debate over the 2nd amendment rages I think one thing needs to be considered. If one of the original bill of rights can be over turned, the precedent scares the hell out of me. Jeff

meatcleaver -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 8:09:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lauren0221 quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol I cannot comprehend that people don't see the correlation between gun ownership and gun rampage. It's easier to buy a gun than a bottle of wine: and the results are there for all of us to see. It's quite obvious that it's people with guns that kill people - the figures speak for themselves. Of course, if people choose to continue with this folly, they have to be prepared to put up with the consequences, such as the lastest massacre which made the subject of this thread. And well, people want to continue owning guns: they have made their choice. The coffin industry continues to profit, so it's not all bad, I suppose. The trouble with strict gun regulation, is that it only keeps guns out of the hands of honest people. Criminals will continue to have access. I am with Jeff on this issue. Give guns out on social welfare. Problem solved. There are obviously too many anti-social people not carrying guns, otherwise the gunman would not have to resort to shooting himself.

lauren0221 -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 8:11:33 AM)
Also, and I just went and checked my facts - statistically in the US, states that allow private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons.The nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states.

Rule -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 8:16:54 AM)
Reference?

Owner59 -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 8:25:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule Reference? Yeah,which issue of which NRA rag?

Jeffff -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 8:32:22 AM)
Google, Gary Kleck. It makes for interesting reading Jeff an excerpt, What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator... I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research. ... Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence. The National Crime Victim Survey does not directly contravene this latest survey, nor do the Mauser and Hart studies. ... Nevertheless, the methodological soundness of the current Kleck and Gertz study is clear. I cannot further debate it. ...

Owner59 -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 8:35:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lauren0221 Also, and I just went and checked my facts - statistically in the US, states that allow private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons.The nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states. If more is better,how about this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g77sLmw-UcY&feature=related And what if the shooter had one of those,instead of a regular shotgun?

Jeffff -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 8:39:56 AM)
I don't see it as an argument about more being better. For myself, if I am one day shot at, I would prefer to be able to shoot back. As it is I live in Illinois, a state that forbids carrying a weapon. I will not carry because the liability of carrying in huge. I would like to point out that Chicago has some of the toughest guns laws in the country, It is actually illegal to own a handgun in the city. Yet, people are shot with them every year. Jeff

Aswad -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 8:46:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lauren0221 Also, and I just went and checked my facts - statistically in the US, states that allow private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons.The nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states. More interesting is the development over time; without that, the causal relation is unclear. There are at least two possible explanations for the numbers you give. First, we have the interpretion that you have given, which is that crime has dropped as a consequence of concealed carry rights. The alternate interpretation is that concealed carry rights are a consequence of a lower prevalence of violent crime, as violent crime tends to polarize peoples views on gun control. If you have more data on how these things have developed over time, along with statistics on how many have actually been carrying at various points, then it will be easier to tell which is the antecedent and which is the consequent, if indeed there is any causal relation in the first place. Some statistics on concealed-carry related accidents and such would also be good. Health, al-Aswad. Edit: To clarify, I would really like to know, and have no clear opinion on the matter at this time.

Rule -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 8:47:13 AM)
FR: fatal traffic deaths (42,642 in 2006 in the USA): http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx Anyone have a similar page for gun related deaths?

slvemike4u -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 8:49:43 AM)
an earlier posting mentioned the fear of overturning one of our original rights as expressed in THE BILL OF RIGHTS.is that really the discussion or is that what the NRA would like to keep the discussion limited to.Would not the proper starting point be interpatation of the "right to bear arms" and "a well armed militia" instead of overturning perhaps a less vague interpatation of this right would give victims of gun crime the RIGHT to reach old age

lauren0221 -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 8:50:30 AM)
No, more is not better. Unfortunately the cat is already out of the bag. Bad guys have weapons. Is that how I wish it to be? Of course not.

Rule -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 8:54:39 AM)
See here for 1998 statistics.

slvemike4u -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 8:57:06 AM)
the automobile while a dangerous vehicle is not often used to maim and kill while commiting hienous violent crimes.i don't really think the accidental deaths that occur on our nation's roads belong in a discussion concerning another shooting in our nation's school's

Jeffff -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 9:03:08 AM)
Ok, and how about a re-interpretation of good old number 4 The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. I have heard people say, " If your not doing anything wrong why do you care" I think if you are suspected, by a neighbor, of harboring an Islamic terrorist,, the cops should just be able to bust in. It is a slippery slope. Jeff Edited cuz I type like shit

bleusparkles -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 9:08:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff Take ALL the guns away? (...) How would you prevent this from happening? You answered your own question :-) . At this point, I think the solution is to come down strong on gun ownership and to slowly make it a special privilege, not a right by law. I cannot comprehend that people don't see the correlation between gun ownership and gun rampage. It's easier to buy a gun than a bottle of wine: and the results are there for all of us to see. It's quite obvious that it's people with guns that kill people - the figures speak for themselves. Of course, if people choose to continue with this folly, they have to be prepared to put up with the consequences, such as the lastest massacre which made the subject of this thread. And well, people want to continue owning guns: they have made their choice. The coffin industry continues to profit, so it's not all bad, I suppose. The problem with making ALL guns illegal is that law abiding human beings won't have guns whereas people who intend to murder are going to break the law anyway.

Jeffff -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 9:09:08 AM)
Ok this is an emotional issue, I am going to beg off now. None of the rhetoric here will change the fact that some people are hurting bad today. My thoughts are with them and their families Jeff

Aswad -> RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus (2/15/2008 9:45:28 AM)
Thanks, Rule. By the way, if anyone knows a source that differentiates between accidental self-injury and accidentally harming others, with regard to guns, I would be very interested. If one blows oneself away, that's a risk that is confined to the person taking it, and the total number doesn't really matter. If one blows the neighbour away, that's a risk that is imposed on others, which is more relevant to me. Health, al-Aswad.

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