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Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 2:54:29 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Inspired by CL's thread and various replies to his OP.....

The vast majority of people in the West are capitalists; Capitalism is our heritage. We invest our time to earn a return; we invest our money to earn a return. The idea that somehow the US is capitalist whereas Canada and Western Europe are socialist is a mere fallacy: we simply offer varying shades of social provision. It goes without saying that there's nothing inherently flawed with regard to the concept of earning a return on our time and labour.

Consumerism in its current state, on the other hand, is an entirely different fish; it's dangerous. It's dangerous because attention has been shifted away from the democratic process towards fashion and fads (by design, I might add). In a nutshell, in countries where only 50ish% of the people turns out to vote, the people have effectively been disenfranchised and the lunatics are free to take over the asylum. It follows, thus, attacks on Capitalism or Socialism serve only to prop up the status quo and do nothing to address the current disillusionment with the democratic process.

Feel free to add comments.

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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 3:03:11 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Do you believe that it is only because people are gullible  that the appeal of consumerism is successful.?
If so a quick trip to a shopping centre should soon change your mind.

Many people simply find politics boring  and would rather shop till they drop.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 3:12:43 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		I hear a similar argument when academics and political commentators claim that most of the populace is stupid.  I couldn't disagree more.  In fact, I rarely meet someone that is truly stupid.  Most people are of average intelligence, and they channel most of the intelligence into their profession, their families, their hobbies, and themselves.  After Joe Six-Pack comes home from working his ass off 8 hours a day, he wants to enjoy his free time.  Most people don't want to hear about the miseries of the world when they have enough miseries of their own to deal with.  I realize and many people realize that those personal miseries are interconnected with the world's miseries.  But you can't expect the majority of people to have time to bother themselves with economics and politics.  They have bills to pay, and families to worry about.  When they have free time, they want to spend it away from worries.   

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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 3:49:14 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Bread and circuses.

Yeah most people are too distracted by shiny things or obsessed with survival to think of changing the rules that keep them in a state of fear and denial.


Z.


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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 3:54:13 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Fear and denial.?
To quote the social commentaters in a  Jerry Springer audience...
Go to Oprah...Go to Oprah.    he he he he he he he 

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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 3:55:49 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

It's dangerous because attention has been shifted away from the democratic process towards fashion and fads (by design, I might add). 


NG can you elaborate your thoughts on this please ? 

I agree about the dangers of arguing pro or anti whatever, and missing the bigger picture. I think there are two reasons people dont vote so much these days. Firstly, left and right have mostly become central, giving voters less choice. Secondly, no matter who is voted in, parties fail to stick to pledges made in the manifesto. While it is easy to vote said parties out next time around, there hardly seems any point when the newly elected government will just follow suit.

It seems to me modern day politicians are just concerned about maintaining power at any costs. Some, such as Russia and North Korea, call it socialism. Some such as America and Europe call it capitalis. Neither is a true democracy, given my point that whoever is voted in nothing changes.

As for consumerism, is it wrong to want the newly available items, better house and car ect ?  To me the bigger danger is not so much wanting luxury goods, but needing everyday goods which are becoming more and more expensive.

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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 3:55:51 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The vast majority of people in the West are capitalists



I disagree.

The vast majority of people in the west believe in welfare for those who cannot earn a living.

They believe in socialized medicine (at least for those who cannot afford medical care, if not everyone).

They believe in the rich being taxed at a higher rate than the poor. Indeed, they believe the poor should pay no taxes at all if their income is below a certain level.

All of these are socialist-based concepts. Ergo, to some degree, the majority of the west are socialists.

quote:


The idea that somehow the US is capitalist whereas Canada and Western Europe are socialist is a mere fallacy: we simply offer varying shades of social provision.


Which I see as a euphemism for stating that we are all socialists to varying degrees.

Consider that in America communications frequencies are considered public property, controlled by the FCC and companies are liscensed to use these frequencies with the understanding that the FCC can revoke their liscenses under certain conditions.

quote:


Consumerism in its current state, on the other hand, is an entirely different fish; it's dangerous. It's dangerous because attention has been shifted away from the democratic process towards fashion and fads (by design, I might add). In a nutshell, in countries where only 50ish% of the people turns out to vote, the people have effectively been disenfranchised and the lunatics are free to take over the asylum. It follows, thus, attacks on Capitalism or Socialism serve only to prop up the status quo and do nothing to address the current disillusionment with the democratic process.


Consumerism is the direct result of advertising, accelerated through the use of television.

Advertising is paid for by capitalist entrepreneurs.

If I have a product to sell, I want everyone to know and I want everyone to want to buy it. Indeed, the more I can attune the consumer to consume, the more profit I will make.

All I need do is convince people they are not cool, safe, efficient, whatever unless they've purchased my products.

TV advertising has spent over 40 years conditioning people to think in these terms. Consumerism is the result.

However, I would disagree that this constitutes a change in attention from democracy to "fashions and fads".

I would say the political process has convinced many people it just doesn't make a difference who is elected: Liar #1 or Liar #2. It doesn't matter what they promise because things are not going to change and have not changed significantly in over 60 years.

The poor get poorer and the rich get richer. Excuses will be found to spend tax money on anything but alleviating the plight of the poor, whether it is the "War on Drugs" (over 40 years old now and still no sign of victory) or the "War on Terror" (whose premise ensures there will never be an end to that war either).

Any excuse to funnel money into the hands of LE/Military and keep it out of the hands of the poor working class.

To keep labour costs low, it is essential that an "empoyer's market" prevails.

And in a global economy where 1st world nations must compete with 3rd world nations' wage expectations, it is to be expected that the working class will get poorer.

Which is why the rich must invest in LE and the Military. For in every nation in history where there was such a difference between rich and poor, the poor eventually strike back at the rich.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 4:35:06 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Lov.... says
The rich get richer....true
and
the poor get poorer....false

quote:

....Before we begin, note that in 1952, the year before Ike took office, real disposable income less the change in real debt per person in year 2000 dollars was $8,981, as shown in the above graph. In 2006, it was $27,634
.

http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2007/05/this-post-looks-at-disposable-income-by.html

These figures IMO are explained by more people having more disposable income.
The rich had a lot more the poor had a bit more !

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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 5:16:04 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


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Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Lov.... says
The rich get richer....true
and
the poor get poorer....false

quote:

....Before we begin, note that in 1952, the year before Ike took office, real disposable income less the change in real debt per person in year 2000 dollars was $8,981, as shown in the above graph. In 2006, it was $27,634
.

http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2007/05/this-post-looks-at-disposable-income-by.html

These figures IMO are explained by more people having more disposable income.
The rich had a lot more the poor had a bit more !


I didn't say people are making less money. Poverty is not just a question of income. Expenses must also be considered.

Your citation speaks only of government debt, it does not speak of personal expenses/debt.

When housing, transportation, essential services, etc rise in price faster than wages, poverty increases. In the past 56 years we have seen remarkable increases in fuel, inflation, and the cost of housing. Rent controls which were popular for a time led to a reduction in rental accomodation and a loss of quality rental units over time.

Food prices kept consistently low have impoverished farmers and the governments who subsidize them.

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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 5:22:52 AM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I hear a similar argument when academics and political commentators claim that most of the populace is stupid.  I couldn't disagree more. 



Stupidity isn't mentioned in my OP.

A lack of awareness is more appropriate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

But you can't expect the majority of people to have time to bother themselves with economics and politics.  They have bills to pay, and families to worry about.  When they have free time, they want to spend it away from worries.   



Government, the political framework and macro economics play a role in determining an individual's ability to pay the bills and manage the family: interest rates were, until recently, set by the government, foreign policy and the associated cost is determined by the government, in England we have the EU question and it will impact on our prosperity, government is irretrievably bound up in defence and justice and plays a role in determining the level of regulation in the market. In sum, important decisions are made at government level that will aid or detract from your ability to manage your bills and family.

I can't believe an individual doesn't have the time to earn a living, manage the family and take an interest in politics and government, particularly as they will have a bearing on your life; in the event the individual can't find the time, then it's a case of getting the government he/she deserves.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 5:43:57 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

It's dangerous because attention has been shifted away from the democratic process towards fashion and fads (by design, I might add). 


NG can you elaborate your thoughts on this please ? 



There's a famous quote attributed to Lloyd George. He was commenting on WW1 and it goes something like this, "we have three enemies in this war, Germany, Austria and the drink; the drink is the more formidable opponent of the three". In centuries gone by, business owners in the industrial towns and cities knocked up rows of cheap housing, worked workers into the ground and made sure a pub was erected on the corner, so the locals would have a place where they could drink, gamble etc, i.e. do anything apart from consider their predicament. In the modern age of global economics, nations can't afford the economic consequences of alcoholism; consumerism is replacing alcohol as the focus to keep people's minds away from notions of being disenfranchised and dreaming of genuine representation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I agree about the dangers of arguing pro or anti whatever, and missing the bigger picture. I think there are two reasons people dont vote so much these days. Firstly, left and right have mostly become central, giving voters less choice. Secondly, no matter who is voted in, parties fail to stick to pledges made in the manifesto. While it is easy to vote said parties out next time around, there hardly seems any point when the newly elected government will just follow suit.



It's a cop out to blame the politicians. We elect them; they are accountable to us. The real issue is that the public isn't interested in holding them accountable, so we shouldn't be surprised when they abdicate their responsibilities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

As for consumerism, is it wrong to want the newly available items, better house and car ect ?  To me the bigger danger is not so much wanting luxury goods, but needing everyday goods which are becoming more and more expensive.



Wrong? No.

I suppose the question hinges on your personal values.

I place more value on my political freedom than I do on a piece of metal supported by rubber.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 5:58:23 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Loveisall
Your citation speaks only of government debt, it does not speak of personal expenses/debt.


The figures quoted relate personal income minus each individual's share of the Federal debt. You know that the Federal debt has increased enormously since the 50's ie the amount subtracted in year 2000 normalised dollars would be greater today than the 50's  and still disposable income has risen.
 
Definition: DI - Disposable Income that amount left from gross income after tax and the basics required to live have been deducted. Received allowances are counted here.

The link shows that DI has increased for all sectors since the 50's
Hence your assertion that the poor get poorer is wrong.

Had you said that increases in income are skewed towards the wealthy then I would have to agree.

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 6:01:25 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Do you believe that it is only because people are gullible  that the appeal of consumerism is successful.?
If so a quick trip to a shopping centre should soon change your mind.

Many people simply find politics boring  and would rather shop till they drop.


Consumerism offers people instant gratification with no lasting sense of fullfillment. That is why it doesn't really matter what people buy as long as they buy, the process of buying and acquiring is more important than the product being purchased. Consumerism is in affect a drug that stimulates the sense of reward in the brain.

If you are on a drug, you are detached somewhat from reality and become disfunctional, hence people turn away from what is in their real interest (politics) in preference to constantly rewarding themselves, no matter how detrimental that reward might be (excessive debt etc.). 

I heard on the news the other day that the USA has in effect, no private savings. ie.  Americans are more dollars in debt than they have in private savings. I think Britain is similar. It is not a healthy situation for a country to be in and certainly not healthy for the individuals who are trapping themselves in debt and all the stress and mental illness that can lead from debt.

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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 6:11:17 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

The vast majority of people in the west believe in welfare for those who cannot earn a living.



Although there's scope for debate with regard to the above, let's assume you're correct. Social provision and Capitalism aren't mutually exclusive. Even the High Priest of Capitalism was sympathetic to such in his Theory of Moral Sentiments, where he argued that the moral and social order emerges out of a process of mutual sympathy and accommodation between individuals.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

They believe in socialized medicine (at least for those who cannot afford medical care, if not everyone).



I'm not convinced this is the case in England. The NHS and wider Welfare State constituted a pragmatic solution to the aftermath of two world wars. Tax and social provision are high on our political agenda and social mobility has ground to halt. My feeling is that we're moving further towards deregulation of the market.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

They believe in the rich being taxed at a higher rate than the poor. Indeed, they believe the poor should pay no taxes at all if their income is below a certain level.



This is not the case in England. You can take it from me that I'm in the minority in this country. The majority is slightly right of centre.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

All of these are socialist-based concepts. Ergo, to some degree, the majority of the west are socialists.



There is a world of difference between controlling the means of production and acting as a referee whom steps in from time to time in the interests of balance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

However, I would disagree that this constitutes a change in attention from democracy to "fashions and fads".



Something like 75% voted in 1979 versus 55% at the last election. This has coincided with the rise of consumerism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

I would say the political process has convinced many people it just doesn't make a difference who is elected: Liar #1 or Liar #2. It doesn't matter what they promise because things are not going to change and have not changed significantly in over 60 years.



I'd argue you're presenting people with an alibi for when it all goes tits up. Blaming the politicians is a cop out: the people hold the power to initiate whatever form of government they so desire.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 2/16/2008 6:12:05 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 6:39:47 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Ng thanks for the reply. I dont fully agree with the following quote though.

quote:

  I'd argue you're presenting people with an alibi for when it all goes tits up. Blaming the politicians is a cop out: the people hold the power to initiate whatever form of government they so desire.



Collectively, you are quite correct we could have a revoloution and start again. You and i both know that wont happen, so all we can do is attend protest groups and argue for change.

Its not a cop out to blame politicians, who fail to carry out what they promised to do once they got in. Even if we did as you suggest and change the system, there is no guarantee that politically, things will be better.


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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 6:45:11 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Definition: DI - Disposable Income that amount left from gross income after tax and the basics required to live have been deducted.



My apologies, I did not see this till I checked the NIPA tables.

However, while the NIPA tables show an increase in overall wealth, as demonstrated by the increasing numbers, it does not show how that wealth is distributed.

It does not take too many millionaires to offset a few thousand poor people on such a chart.

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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 6:45:28 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I have to say, I'm in general agreement with NG's central idea.  We have definitely been diverted from more important concerns by the trifles dangled before our eyes. 

But for those who think that we've never had it so good, measures of DI by social class can be misleading, hence a newer emphasis on child poverty.  In the case of the UK, the figures make for sobering reading, despite more and more of us having plasma TV's et al. 

quote:


In fact, the chance of being better off than their parents has reduced for people who grew up in the 1980s and 1990s, compared with people who grew up in the 1960s and 1970s.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4123676.stm

But what opened the way for us to be lulled into our present stupor?  For me, chief among various factors was the fall of the Soviet Union.  I think the drop in tension following the Cold War allowed the idea that a big house filled with goods = paradise to be sold to us.  Previously, the rank and file were genuinely concerned by the threat of nuclear war, besides which home cinema and two foreign holidays a year seemed an irrelevance.  With that threat removed, the way was open for all that 9-10-ish talk of an everlasting peace of luxury; the end of history.   

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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 7:02:20 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Inspired by CL's thread and various replies to his OP.....

The vast majority of people in the West are capitalists; Capitalism is our heritage. We invest our time to earn a return; we invest our money to earn a return. The idea that somehow the US is capitalist whereas Canada and Western Europe are socialist is a mere fallacy: we simply offer varying shades of social provision. It goes without saying that there's nothing inherently flawed with regard to the concept of earning a return on our time and labour.

Consumerism in its current state, on the other hand, is an entirely different fish; it's dangerous. It's dangerous because attention has been shifted away from the democratic process towards fashion and fads (by design, I might add). In a nutshell, in countries where only 50ish% of the people turns out to vote, the people have effectively been disenfranchised and the lunatics are free to take over the asylum. It follows, thus, attacks on Capitalism or Socialism serve only to prop up the status quo and do nothing to address the current disillusionment with the democratic process.

Feel free to add comments.


I think it's a bit of a stretch to link the lack of voting as a result of consumerism.

I would say that most people simply don't care anymore and fashions and fads are just one of the many distractions to fill the void left by politics. What about professional football? I know hundreds of people off the top of my head who worship a football team, but don't even bat an eye to a candidate for this years election.

Is professional football one of these dangerous entities designed to distract people from voting or are people just simply less interested in politics and more interested in football as a result?

I'm one of those people who has lost a huge amount of interest in politics over the years and it has nothing to do with chasing my new iPod or PS3. It's simply because of what the political arena has deteriated into, thanks to the contributions of the close-minded enclaves of lunatics and fanatics, religously defending thier party regardless of the issue with a myopic stream of information from their side's cable TV shows and Internet mesage boards.

People with only a mild or moderate interest aren't going to join in the headache of the circus side show.

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RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 7:06:59 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

All of these are socialist-based concepts. Ergo, to some degree, the majority of the west are socialists.



There is a world of difference between controlling the means of production and acting as a referee whom steps in from time to time in the interests of balance.



Two different means to the same end: a managed economy (anathema to a true capitalist).

Any government intervention in the economy is socialist in nature.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

However, I would disagree that this constitutes a change in attention from democracy to "fashions and fads".



Something like 75% voted in 1979 versus 55% at the last election. This has coincided with the rise of consumerism.



I'm sorry, but you have yet to generate a convincing cause-and-effect argument linking these two facts.

And it would help to know which country you refer to.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

I would say the political process has convinced many people it just doesn't make a difference who is elected: Liar #1 or Liar #2. It doesn't matter what they promise because things are not going to change and have not changed significantly in over 60 years.



I'd argue you're presenting people with an alibi for when it all goes tits up. Blaming the politicians is a cop out: the people hold the power to initiate whatever form of government they so desire.


I believe that is a myth.

Nearly all grass-root parties never get off the ground due to lack of funding and lack of publicity.

Governments and main-stream parties adopt similar policies and then gradually pervert them, or under-fund them while claiming to do otherwise, etc.

There are many ways for a well-funded political process to ensure its own survival and suppress those who would change it.

< Message edited by Loveisallyouneed -- 2/16/2008 7:09:56 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... - 2/16/2008 7:25:57 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Just a comment to those to whom it may concern
Once again the same soppy sentimentalists are peddling the same old guff about wicked uncaring society, child poverty is worse than ever it was etc etc etc on and on  to a broken heart.

Never point the finger at the feckless. For example , irresponsible lone parents who carry on producing sprogs that others must support, those who have no thought for the future until the future arrives and kicks them in bollux, then of course its not their fault its its its.......society's.

How awful it is that respectable reasonably hard working people , many employed by the uncaring state, want to own a car a better house nice furniture  things like that.
Should be ashamed they should.
Send them to the Gulag to be re educated to recognise the truth.
The truth ? see NG's manifesto.

You lot make me cry in my beer. Please change the record and listen to one that plays some facts.

quote:


no moral criticism intended
just whittlin' and wonderin' if these stats are in any way connected to child poverty
The large growth in the proportion of lone-parent families (from 8 per cent of families in 1971 to over a quarter of families [27 percent] in 2002) has mainly been among families headed by a lone mother
 

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/16/2008 7:47:48 AM >

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