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RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 2:45:21 PM

NeedToUseYou

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There is only a population problem because there is an energy problem. They are the same problem.
Energy is the limit that will determine the maximum number of sustainable people on the planet.

Just put on our imagination hats for a while. Imagine we actually collect enough power from solar and it's other forms like wind and waves, to power everything and leave more left over than we need or want.

Consequences:
1. Almost everything will be recyclable.
2. Water desalination will not be an issue(no fresh water problems anywhere).
3. No pollution from burning fossil fuels
4. You could turn the deserts into oasis's
5. Formerly uninhabitable areas will be habitable(to cold, to hot, to dry), as you can cool it or heat it, or pump water in.
6. Shipping costs will become a non-factor, meaning supply distribution becomes almost a non-cost issue.
7. Hell you could even have underground farms if energy costs were not a factor.

It solves everything for a very long time, at least long enough for us to all die and be forgotten.

It's really a game of harvesting the energy that is already here in the form of solar, wave, and wind.

Of course, all that I'm sure is eventually doable, but probably not for another 30 years or so let's just kill more Iraqi's and hope china attacks some country other than us in the mean time. If we could figure out a way to kill off a billion plus people, I'm sure that'd buy us enough time to get this solar,wind,wave stuff down, then we can all be happy.

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Post #: 21

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 2:48:06 PM

toddlefeet

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So..Let me get this straight..You want to let loose the flu & pleagues to keep down the population. What about those like myself w/ illnesses we were already born with?..What Kill us off too?

-Spits on "FangsNFeet"- You suck as a human being and you are now deemed worlthless & pathetic. -pets CrimsonMoan.- I love kitty's =) What about the billions innocent children and the disabled that cannot speak for themselves. kill them off too? I don't think so. Our government needs to put more money into sciences of Genetic engineering of plants, fruits & vegetables. We need to get The U S OFF of Oil once & for all & stop using fossil fuels.
We Need to start usung Hydrogyne and alternative power resources.

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Post #: 22

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 2:50:14 PM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I do think your right about smaller needing more. But that is a % of body weight. less actuall consumption. Probably more accurate to say if we were 2/3 of mass we would use half as much stuff.

But consider my plan 2 foot tall green people with gills that pull 15% of thier nutrients from the Smog, and another 40% from Photosynthesis. Drink sea water. Glow in the dark well enough to read, and they can turn it off and on. Thin Blubber layer to keep extra warm with out looking fat. Or desert models with extra water retention capabilities. Genetically engineered to perfect loyalty and obediance to the rules, which allow for hyper efficient production and consumption. Easily could get 22 billion of them living on a planet with no problem. And that is just land dwellers. I am sure we got a billion of em living comfortably on the bottom of the sea. And with genetically engineered loyalty, they will certainly be comfortable.

Science has it all taken care of.

I have to say - you make genocide and euthanasia under a nazi world government sound like a preferential option

E

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Post #: 23

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 2:52:10 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I have long been a proponent of rendering fat people into bio diesel. Or should that be on the contraversial thread?

Auchtung!

Holocaust II

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 2/16/2008 2:54:03 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 2:54:34 PM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

There is only a population problem because there is an energy problem. They are the same problem.

I propose this post (all of it, not just the bit I quoted!) to be the best contribution to this thread so far.

If all it contains is viable, then we have a future which does not consist of throwing away universal human rights but in fact fulfilling that aim, and which does not consist in reducing living standards for all, but improving them for all.

E

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Post #: 25

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 2:56:58 PM

luckydog1

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Not really Toddle, I don't know what to do about this issue actually. In many ways, In the long run a pandemic would be better for the world, but not for the people who go through it, like the Back Death. I would not want to intentionally release disease on anyone. But our ability to cure disease, has thrown the ecosystem out of whack, with some serious reprecussions. And it will balance one way or the other, like it or not.

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Post #: 26

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 3:04:24 PM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: toddlefeet

So..Let me get this straight..You want to let loose the flu & pleagues to keep down the population. What about those like myself w/ illnesses we were already born with?..What Kill us off too?

Indeed; this is part of my "Option Two" - to free resources requires that those who might consume them who are not deemed valuable and viable, must be removed. But dont get the idea that anyone talking about such things is necessarily in favour of them. Especially me, who is pretty costly to keep around all in all.

In any case, releasing plagues et al is too random a means of reducing populations, in that they tend not to discriminate about who would be handy to have around afterwards as a survivor and who wouldnt.

E

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Post #: 27

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 3:08:21 PM

luckydog1

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Lady E, please don't misunderstand what I am going to say, but Genocide and Euthanasia, isn't the worst possible future, nor is it my prefered one.
.
Your point about the wasted potential of those deemed unworthy, is an argument used by Anti Abortionists also. Maybe the unique brain that could cure AIDS was aborted 35 years ago. Maybe the AIDS deaths he did not prevent will, keep the planets ecology from actually tipping, who knows?

The thing about better energy,is that unless it comes with a paradigm shift in human nature, it would just buy time. We would still face the same problems, but at the 30 billion mark. We could end up with a City Planet like the capital planet in Star Wars. That sounds like hell to me, and not that far from the world I jokingly described.

In some ways unlimited energy would be like the proverbial, handing a machine gun to a toddler.

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Post #: 28

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 3:13:33 PM

luckydog1

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Lady E so you would want a rational list of who lives and dies drawn up, that would indeed require some serious authoritarianism. To pull off something like that you would almost need an absolute Theocracy, in which the subjects seriously and honetly believe the religion. Would Affirmative Action and racial preferences be considered in the drawing of the lists? Would we want the final result to be racially porpotional to what we have now? Or should all the groups be equalised in number? Or just get rid of some of the pesky ones entirely?

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Post #: 29

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 3:30:39 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I have long been a proponent of rendering fat people into bio diesel. Or should that be on the contraversial thread?

Soylent Green is People!

(I know I wasn't the only thinking it!

)

< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 2/16/2008 3:31:02 PM >

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Post #: 30

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 3:35:14 PM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Lady E so you would want a rational list of who lives and dies drawn up, that would indeed require some serious authoritarianism. To pull off something like that you would almost need an absolute Theocracy, in which the subjects seriously and honetly believe the religion. Would Affirmative Action and racial preferences be considered in the drawing of the lists? Would we want the final result to be racially porpotional to what we have now? Or should all the groups be equalised in number? Or just get rid of some of the pesky ones entirely?

I certainly wouldnt want any such thing - but youre right in that it would require the introduction and acceptance of the ideology required to make it happen, and a large degree of enforcement too.

It wouldnt be a simple matter though. It couldnt be done with an eye to any consideration other than maintaining a viable society - so no IQ measurement, no special skills or lack thereof, no attributes or lack thereof could be the determining factor. We would need to ensure that those remaining are capable of fulfilling all the roles required, so we'd need people to pick up the trash cans as well as people to perform surgery. It certainly couldnt be done according to any consideration for skin colour, which as far as I'm aware doesnt preclude anyone from performing a task for which they have the skills. Could be we end up with all black just as much as all white.

We could probably lose a few lawyers though; we dont need the number we have now and in the Brave New World, litigation would be rendered redundant....

E

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RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 3:37:03 PM

Estring

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Let's do what Europe did, and promote a zero birth policy. Then we will discover that our population is aging too fast and we are not producing enough young people to enter the workforce. So then let's let in a ton of immigrants who hate our way of living and are now working to overthrow our way of life. See how harmful stupid ideas can be?
There is no overpopulation problem. Just a stupid people problem.

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Post #: 32

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 3:40:20 PM

Justme696

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Let's do what Europe did, and promote a zero birth policy. Then we will discover that our population is aging too fast and we are not producing enough young people to enter the workforce. So then let's let in a ton of immigrants who hate our way of living and are now working to overthrow our way of life. See how harmful stupid ideas can be?
There is no overpopulation problem. Just a stupid people problem.

and when did Europe promote this?
It is not the reason that Europe is getting "grey"..the reason is that in most families both male as female work...and that they get kids around 40..instead of when the female is 20. People need the money..so they both keep working.

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Post #: 33

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 3:51:42 PM

luckydog1

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All right, we both have lawyers on the list, let's get started. How about Child Molestors? We could agree on that, right? This is getting easier...

Another way could be to implement a zero tolerance standard for anti Social Activities. The Brave New World is going to have to be full of people who don't smash bottles and vandalise for fun. People who cheerfully accpet that what ever the Community says they need to do on any given day, is what they will do. And without a doubt, there will be at least a century of cleaning up after this party. Smile as they sort thier trash, ect. We just start executing people for any sort of anti social behavior From Graffitti up. One strike your out. Get a gene pool of people with better impulse controll at the same time you get the numbers down.

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Post #: 34

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 4:06:38 PM

LadyEllen

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actually, I'm now in two minds about growing those gills.....

E

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Post #: 35

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 4:10:54 PM

faerytattoodgirl

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no more than 2 children. 1 boy and 1 girl for each family. if you have 2 boys or have 2 girls then you can exchange with another family so that each family has 1 boy and 1 girl. families would be no bigger than 4 people. and you can have as many pets as you want.

once you have these kids...you automatically get snipped.

yes i know this is a silly thing to say.

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Post #: 36

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 4:14:52 PM

Aneirin

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I believe the Scandinavian countries had a policy around the time of world war 2, a policy to sterilise the lower end of society.

I understand this was undertaken by means of a free health check and tonsil removal, except the ability to reproduce was killed off.

The lower end of society as they saw it included, the mentally impaired, the feckless, vagrants, gypsies, and criminals.Those who produced oodles of sprogs without the ability to provide for them etc and I believe persistant social hand out seekers.

The plan was to allow these type of people to come to a natural end believing what someone was, was genetic.

Now, Scandinavia does not have any population problems, but they as a race, are definately strange.

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Post #: 37

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 4:17:31 PM

faerytattoodgirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Now, Scandinavia does not have any population problems, but they as a race, are definately strange.

yes...we are strange....you see...its our blonde hair.

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Post #: 38

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 4:19:51 PM

LadyEllen

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The problem with methods which limit the number of children per couple is that they dont work. And unless we are prepared to develop the Brave New World approach to human rights, its simply not acceptable to sterilise people by government order.

In any case, who says global population control to maintain sustainable resources should affect us? Its not with us that the world population is growing as it is - and we are the dominant culture on the planet which wants the resources for itself and has the resources to make sure itself is the strong which survives.

The Brave New World option indicates that population control is what is needed elsewhere in the world - fewer people (or no people) elsewhere in the world, releases all the resources for our use. No need to reduce our own populations and no need to limit our consumption either.

E

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Post #: 39

RE: Overpopulation - 2/16/2008 4:26:53 PM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Now, Scandinavia does not have any population problems, but they as a race, are definately strange.

yes...we are strange....you see...its our blonde hair.

I considered starting again in Sweden, property was cheap, a nice stuga in the forest would suit me, but trying to fit into that culture, it was a nightmare. A place where there it seems the only difference between male and female is anatomy and some of that is not that obvious to an onlooker.

I can't be too scathing, I have Swedish and Danish family, but we are very different.

Still want a stuga though.

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Post #: 40

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