RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (Full Version)

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AquaticSub -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 4:55:47 PM)

~Fast Reply~

No, they should not have been detained, but I'm also curious as to who made these arrangements, why there weren't paramedics waiting at the airport and if the airport had been given plenty of prior warning that they would be coming through. Certainly this was handled badly and it is a tragic event, I truly feel for a mother who has lost her child, but I really can't help but wonder why the paramedics weren't already there.




carlie310 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 4:57:22 PM)

That problem had already been addressed, so I didn't feel the need. I never defended the actions. I did call them idiotic, frustrating, say that it shouldn't have happened, and that I'd be angry too.  Should I not have questioned someone presenting one side of a situation who expects to profit from that situation? Should I have just said "me too" without pointing out the problems?

Okay, then.

Me too!




laurell3 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 5:01:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

~Fast Reply~

No, they should not have been detained, but I'm also curious as to who made these arrangements, why there weren't paramedics waiting at the airport and if the airport had been given plenty of prior warning that they would be coming through. Certainly this was handled badly and it is a tragic event, I truly feel for a mother who has lost her child, but I really can't help but wonder why the paramedics weren't already there.


That was my thought too.  When I was in high school I was out of the state for a relative visit when I got mono which quickly became serious as it went into my kidneys.  I came home to be hospitalized.  When I flew home, I never saw the inside of the airport or waited two seconds.  They picked me up at the front door, took me straight to the plane, took me off the plane first and out the front door to an ambulance.  It's a bit amazing to me that a baby wasn't whisked through whatever red tape was necessary.  I obviously wasn't flying international and I had paperwork from my doctor saying I was not contagious except by exchange of bodily fluids, but the airline handled my illness incredibly well.




amativedame -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 5:02:13 PM)

I am the only one that doesn't question the reality of having to detain both the mother and the child?  Unless they had some legal document, the nurse has absolutely no authority or guardianship for the child.  Should the nurse and the child have traveled to the hospital they still would have needed parental approval for any kind of medical care.

Plus.. none of us have any way of knowing how long it should or shouldn't have taken the paramedics to get there.  You cannot simply conclude that they were only leaving from the hospital.  They could have come from anywhere... and as someone who has been "15 minutes from the hospital" I have still been in situations where I've had to wait an hour for an ambulance in a life threatening situation. 




Alumbrado -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 5:04:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlie310

Once the paramedics got there, the baby was under medical care, and would have had oxygen--that's why I only counted to there.  And while they may have been able to get out of the airport and to the hospital in 15 minutes, that doesn't mean that he would have already been hooked up to whatever machinery he needed by then.   So in the best circumstance possible, he would have been at the hospital at 5:45.  Instead, he was under medical care at 6:20, and at a hospital by 6:30.  (He was transported to a closer hospital.)

Two week babies with holes in their hearts can typically handle warm temps pretty well, if they aren't overdressed.  Since the room was described as "warm" and not "hot" I think this is jury prep rather than being a contributing factor. 

Yes, it was stupid.  Michael and the nurse shouldn't have been detained. If that were my son, I'd be angry as well. But even so, I don't think that you can say that this child's death is a result of being detained.  There's so much that the articles don't even touch on. . .the exact type of "hole in his heart", for example.  We don't know what sort of problems the baby had in the room--would it have been something that immediate attention could have resolved? There's not enough information there to say that blame exists.

And in all honesty, I have to admit that this press conference to announce their intent to sue less than a week after their son died does raise questions for me.  They aren't going on GMA or Today or Oprah to talk about their pain. they aren't holding a vigil--they are suing, which implies (to me) that they want to put a dollar amount on their son's life. This is their way of grieving; I hope it works for them.  But that choice feeds my natural skepticism. 



More information would be very useful in overcoming skepticism.

But as far as a lawsuit goes, once you place someone in a position where they aren't free to leave, anything bad that happens to them is going to come back on you.
'Blame' might not be the best word, but responsibility does come with consequences, and the courts tend to punish such things with monetary awards, as that gets the sort of attention that causes policy makers to actually follow up and implement precautions against a repeat.




kittinSol -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 5:05:56 PM)

Sorry if I missed a point, carlie. Personal circumstances make this tragedy particularly poignant to me.




domiguy -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 5:09:44 PM)

I imagine it was a very bad baby.




Jeffff -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 5:16:08 PM)

I 'm sorry, I know it makes me a bad man........but I just laughed out loud

Jeff




carlie310 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 5:19:22 PM)

My comment about the suit was less than clear.  It's not that they're suing.  It's that they held a press conference to announce the suit less than a week later. And I didn't put that out there to say that they're wrong for suing; I said that it caused me to be more skeptical because of my own bias.

ETA to amativedame: In my previous posting, I did say that if they waited 10 minutes for an ambulance after the call came in, that's horrific. I assume that the airport is a high density area, so it should be less. An hour in a life-threatening situation is beyond belief.  Not that I doubt you, iI just don't have words to explain how bad it is. 




kittinSol -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 5:20:59 PM)

Bah, everything's PR these days. In a case such as this, you need media backup. It's the way of the world.




carlie310 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 5:25:29 PM)

And that's exactly why I'm skeptical--everything is PR.  It's spin. 

Have they buried their son?




kittinSol -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 5:27:43 PM)

When I said PR, I meant Public Relations. Whilst there's a certain amount of spin in PR, not all PR consists of spin.

It could be that the public relations surrounding this case are the responsibility of the legal firm that represents them, for example. I have absolutely no idea how it worked in their case: but to judge them negatively because they have media exposure is a tad harsh, I think.




amativedame -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 5:36:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlie310

ETA to amativedame: In my previous posting, I did say that if they waited 10 minutes for an ambulance after the call came in, that's horrific. I assume that the airport is a high density area, so it should be less. An hour in a life-threatening situation is beyond belief.  Not that I doubt you, iI just don't have words to explain how bad it is. 



In many areas its not necessarily uncommon... and in that specific area traffic nor tax dollars are on that side.  Its a very strong pos. that was the best they could do time wise.




kittinSol -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 5:39:06 PM)

The controversy surrounds the actions of the immigration officers because of a confusion over the mother's visa waiver (it turned out that there was nothing wrong with her paperwork), not because of distance to time ratio to the hospital.




carlie310 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 5:47:01 PM)

First off, PR--and yes, I'm familiar with the term--is spin.  It's putting your side of the story with your interpretation of events before the public eye. That doesn't mean it's a lie or even misleading, but it is one side off the story.

Second, I do not judge them harshly for that. That means drawing conclusions, which I have not done. However, their choices lead me to question their motives. 

Further, they are putting their story out in the public eye to invite judgement, assuming most of it will be on their side.  I'm questioning before reaching a conclusion. (Actually, I'm questioning knowing I'll never get the facts to reach a conclusion.)

And suing is NOT all they can do. It's not like the statute of limitations is next week. It's certainly not what I would be doing this week.  I might get there eventually, but in less than a week?  Nope.  I'm hugging my other kids, weeping with the rest of the family.  Again, I said above that I hope that it worked for them as their way of dealing, but that their way of dealing invites my skepticism.

I'm sorry for your loss. 




thompsonx -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 6:25:44 PM)

FR
The newspaper article is inaccurate.  The mother,the baby, and the nurse were all American citizens.  They were born in American Samoa and that makes them American citizens.  They should have never been detained.
thompson




farglebargle -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 6:56:25 PM)

quote:


Further, they are putting their story out in the public eye to invite judgement,


I thought it was the Newspaper Reporters who were publishing the News Story of a Child Dying while in Needless Custody, not the parents.

You don't think the story is newsworthy? "Pointless Bureaucratic Delays Kill Child"?

The ONLY question anyone should have asked was, "Do you have transportation arranged to the Hospital?" And if the parents indicated in any way "No", the offer extended to get them to the Taxi Stand without delay...






carlie310 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 7:11:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


Further, they are putting their story out in the public eye to invite judgement,


I thought it was the Newspaper Reporters who were publishing the News Story of a Child Dying while in Needless Custody, not the parents.

You don't think the story is newsworthy? "Pointless Bureaucratic Delays Kill Child"?

The ONLY question anyone should have asked was, "Do you have transportation arranged to the Hospital?" And if the parents indicated in any way "No", the offer extended to get them to the Taxi Stand without delay...




I think the story is newsworthy, I just think it doesn't contain the whole story. 

I think that the reporter attended a news conference, at the lawyer's office.  There's only one mention of one fact that's not directly attributed to the family or the lawyer--the time of the emergency phone call. That's attributed to "officials."  Any impression you have of this being a well-researched story is mistaken.

I think your headline is based on facts not contained in the article.

I think Michael Futi's death was a tragedy.  I think that the way he, his mother and his nurse were treated is shameful.  But I also don't believe that we have the full story, nor that the people who stupidly put them in that room were an obvious cause of his death.  Possibly.  And I haven't once defended their actions.  I've just asked some questions.  Sorry I can't drink the Kool Aid on this one.

In fact, as of the time the article was written, the cause of Michael's death hadn't been determined. 




farglebargle -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 7:46:32 PM)

Who cares about the "Full Story"? What we know is enough.

Baby flies in for hospital visit. Homeland-Security-Nazi fucks up. Baby Dies.

There is no excusing the inhumane treatment this family endured. Period. You used to hear stories like this from "Behind the Iron Curtain", where bureaucratic incompetence takes precedence over a baby getting to the hospital without delay. Once, I believe the US was different. Now we're just a Nation of Pussies.

Shameful.




carlie310 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 7:48:02 PM)

Perhaps enough for you, but I'm not willing to jump with you to the Isle of Conclusions.  Sorry.




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