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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 7:19:21 AM

RealityLicks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

How much of that was copied?

Who are you talking to?

To the anarcho-syndicalist Trotskyite among us. Also known to Ralph Ellison as the Invisible Man.

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 2/29/2008 8:01:37 AM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 7:36:13 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Israel is now planning a massive offensive on the Gaza Strip. One Israeli man was killed by Hamas, in a week that has also seen 32 Palestinians killed, including 8 children. The army is being mobilised to strike in what the defence minister calls a "bigger holocaust":

quote:

"they will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Matan Vilnai, Israel's deputy defence minister, told army radio.

Shoah is the Hebrew word normally reserved to refer to the Jewish Holocaust. It is rarely used in Israel outside discussions of the Nazi extermination of Jews during the second world war, and many Israelis are loath to countenance its use to describe other events.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/29/israelandthepalestinians1

Looks like we're in for another bit of "self-defence" by the poor and persecuted, equipped with helicopter gunships and all the other paraphernalia of 21st Century warfare. Hundreds will be slaughtered.

It's the children the Israelis are really scared of. The last thing Israel wants is to have expelled Palestinians only for those left behind to breed faster than the Israeli population in growing. The defence minister is only saying what the Israeli leadership has thought for a long time. If it wasn't for world opinion, they would have ethnically cleansed and murdered a lot more Palestinians than they have. The problem is, even the US has a limit to how much of Israeli crimes it can stomach.

The problem with reports like above is that it gives the impression that the Palestinians mase the first aggressive act, they didn't, the Israelis have been attacking the Palestinians for months.

This is an Israeli Human rights website with their statistics. (just so I'm not accused of spreading propaganda.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=1

B'TSELEM - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories was established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members. It endeavors to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/29/2008 7:45:54 AM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 8:07:06 AM

caitlyn

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I didn't say you were a Palestinian supporter, and apologize if my words could be seen that way (which I can actually see). I don't know you well enough to make that claim. I mearly meant to say that you misrepresented what I said, with your statement:

"You mentioned where the rockets come from, i just pointed out some are home made and others mainly come from China."

As I clearly did not mention where rockets came from, you were clearly incorrect in the above statement. Not only did I not mention where they come from, I intentionally left it open-ended, in that I used the term "facilitate those bent on the destruction of any Jewish state." This was done to be inclusive of financial support (which I would guess that groups within the United States are a major offender), political support, and military support. There was no mention of denying arms to a Palestinian state (NG's response) ... as a point of fact, I didn't even say "Palestinian" or "Israel" in the original point, only "groups bent on the destruction of any Jewish state."

That even so basic a point as this is questioned, is telling in my view. How can any reasonable person that insists they desire peace, argue against facilitatation of someone bent on the destruction of someone else? At some point we are left to ponder; a) do the people in question really desire peace? b) are the people in question so vested in getting their own way, they will argue against even the most reasonable suggestions? c) are the people in question, actually reasonable?

This is not to say that you fit in any of those categories ... or anyone else for that matter. That is a question you will have to answer for yourself. What I will say is that where I come from, in polite society, when you so clearly misrepresent what someone else has said, you act like a stand up person and post a retraction, as opposed to "Lets make this simple for you.", in an attempt to spin your way out of self-inflicted wounds.

Peace ... Caitlyn (who is less polite, and not all that sub)

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 2/29/2008 8:10:09 AM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 8:08:35 AM

Hippiekinkster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

How much of that was copied?

Who are you talking to?

To the anarcho-syndicalist Trotskyite among us. Also known to Ralph Ellison as the Invisible Man.

Who is that?

(in reply to RealityLicks)

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 8:25:13 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

How much of that was copied?

Who are you talking to?

To the anarcho-syndicalist Trotskyite among us. Also known to Ralph Ellison as the Invisible Man.

Who is that?

His name is Dennis, even if Arthur called him Old Man. He is 38. Everybody in his group takes a turn as executive officer of the week, but all decisions...

SirRobinergy

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 8:45:28 AM

RealityLicks

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HK, relax. Just a bit of a laugh you got caught in t' middle of.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 8:50:41 AM

Hippiekinkster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

HK, relax. Just a bit of a laugh you got caught in t' middle of.

demobhappyergy

Who's uptight? Not me. I'm a Hippie. We are, by definition, not uptight.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 10:16:16 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I didn't say you were a Palestinian supporter, and apologize if my words could be seen that way (which I can actually see). I don't know you well enough to make that claim. I mearly meant to say that you misrepresented what I said, with your statement:

"You mentioned where the rockets come from, i just pointed out some are home made and others mainly come from China."

As I clearly did not mention where rockets came from, you were clearly incorrect in the above statement. Not only did I not mention where they come from, I intentionally left it open-ended, in that I used the term "facilitate those bent on the destruction of any Jewish state." This was done to be inclusive of financial support (which I would guess that groups within the United States are a major offender), political support, and military support. There was no mention of denying arms to a Palestinian state (NG's response) ... as a point of fact, I didn't even say "Palestinian" or "Israel" in the original point, only "groups bent on the destruction of any Jewish state."

That even so basic a point as this is questioned, is telling in my view. How can any reasonable person that insists they desire peace, argue against facilitatation of someone bent on the destruction of someone else? At some point we are left to ponder; a) do the people in question really desire peace? b) are the people in question so vested in getting their own way, they will argue against even the most reasonable suggestions? c) are the people in question, actually reasonable?

This is not to say that you fit in any of those categories ... or anyone else for that matter. That is a question you will have to answer for yourself. What I will say is that where I come from, in polite society, when you so clearly misrepresent what someone else has said, you act like a stand up person and post a retraction, as opposed to "Lets make this simple for you.", in an attempt to spin your way out of self-inflicted wounds.

Peace ... Caitlyn (who is less polite, and not all that sub)

Caitlyn, Thank you for the apology. I am glad you have seen your mistake.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 10:54:21 AM

Politesub53

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The only way there will be peace is through negotiaton. Firstly the bloodshed needs to be stopped, then maybe peace talks can take place. Every issue that either side has concerns about needs to be addressed. This includes the border issues and water distribution ( The main issue leading up to the 67 war ) Both sides need to trust each other and jointly take the first steps. Sadly i cant see this happening. The UN has neither the manpower or the willpower to enforce a cease fire, this can only come from the leaders of the groups concerned.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 11:48:20 AM

luckydog1

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Isreal has several times taken concrete steps. Last in 2000 with the Oslo and Dayton accords. It was agreed that everyone could visit thier holy sites. But when the Isrealis exercised that right, Arafat declared an infatada. And outside arab agents, Began funding the Anti Arafat group Hamas, and paying them per suicide bomb.

Untill it is realised that the Palestinians were and are PAWNS of the Pan Arabist movement, thier lives will not improve. In 48 Jordanin (Trans Jordan, same basic borders same capital) backed a group to form a Palestinain Government. Egypt created thier own. the Jordanian one, slaughtered the Egyptian group, and later became the PLO. Other Arab states had thier own backed groups, which often fought each other (this is in the 40s 50s 60 70s and 80s). In the 90s the situation changed somewhat as it evolved to a PA (PLO) government backed by the Sunnis, with Hezbollah and Hamas being backed by the Shiites. And neither group will ever let the the other take Jerusalem. If Isreal disapeared tonight, the real war and suffering would start tomorow.

Hamas is commited to the destruction of Isreal, you can't negotiate that. EVERYTHING else can be negotiated, the day the rockets stop. The Isreali public is cleary in favor of Negotiation, and has no desire to recreate the Ancient Greater Isreal. Every freaking city over there has ruled the region at some point in the past 10,000 years. there are people who dream of re creating the Greater Syria, Babloynian Empire, Persian Empire, Cairo Sultanate, ect.

There are basically 3 positions being argued here. And none of them are inherantly Anti Semetic, though the comments of some seem to indicate it.

1. Isreal is illegitimate, and should be destroyed.

2. Isreal is legitimate, but must pull back to indefensible borders and try to negotiate with a group commited to option 1. And iSreal alone should be blockaded.

3. Isreal is legitimate, and has the right to defend itself from constant attack since the 1940s.

Plenty of people in the #2 camp are saying that of course the Palestinains must police themselves and stop the rockets, but they ignore the fact that they aren't. And that Isreal has many times tried to negotiate.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 12:10:32 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

1. Isreal is illegitimate,

I can argue this either way. But what does legitimacy have to do with anything in the context of human history?

quote:

and should be destroyed.

Does not logically follow from your first premise, despite what you might believe.

What I keep saying is that a solution needs to be determined that works for everybody, and continually doing the same things that dont work over and over and over again for decades is simply psychotic.

Sinergy

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 2:11:24 PM

luckydog1

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Sinergy it doesn't have to follow logically, it just does. That Isreal needs to not exist is the position taken by many, including Hamas. I understand you are in camp 2. If you do not understand the role of Legitimacy in human affairs, you need more help than I can give you here.

I agree that doing the same thing expecting different results is rather psychotic. But you do need to consider that with the option of destruction by War looming and daily attacks for decades, the Isrealis doing what they do keeps them in existance. to do otherwise would be psychotic for them. Now for the Plaestinains to keep sending thier kids to attack Isreal at the behest of larger Arab Politics seems like a stragtegy worth reconsidering.

Several people keep mentioning that not all Isrealis agree with the policies towards the Palestinians. And that is certainly true. Isreal is a Democracy where freedom of expression is allowed and used. However for over 50 years any Palestinian who advocated making peace with Isreal was killed as Collabarator. And of course no innocent Palestinians were killed that way, right?

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 4:59:17 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

The only way there will be peace is through negotiaton. Firstly the bloodshed needs to be stopped, then maybe peace talks can take place. Every issue that either side has concerns about needs to be addressed. This includes the border issues and water distribution ( The main issue leading up to the 67 war ) Both sides need to trust each other and jointly take the first steps. Sadly i cant see this happening. The UN has neither the manpower or the willpower to enforce a cease fire, this can only come from the leaders of the groups concerned.

Hi Politesub53

I used to think like you but over the years I have become disenchanted with negotiations, the UN, and the Israelis Palestinian desire for peace.

I believe there is but one path to peace…. Someone must win...and win decisively. I can’t think of a long lasting negotiated peace anywhere or time in the history of mankind. The only so called peace that has lasted has been by the sword …even then only with a complete and total capitulation.

Butch

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 6:34:31 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I understand you are in camp 2.

You would be incorrect in your understanding.

quote:

you need more help than I can give you here.

Since you fail to understand what camp I am in, I agree that you cannot help me.

I dont think anybody needs to die. The point I keep making is that everybody involved seems hell-bent on doing the eye for an eye thing until everybody is blind.

Sinergy

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 7:31:56 PM

luckydog1

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And except for the fact that Isreal has sat down and negotiated several times, which they obey. And has attempted to deal with the Palestinians. To the point that they withdrew thier forces from the Occupied areas, and were rewarded with War. You are right.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 8:49:39 PM

Sinergy

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What always fascinates me are when people accuse me of being opposed to violence.

I teach full-contact self-defense based almost entirely on verbal dissuasions (the good) and fighting brutally using tactics which would be considered "dirty fighting" in any civilized culture. What I tell people who ask about my personal viewpoint is that if one does not bring violence to my door, they have nothing to fear from me.

If a couple of Palestineans on a hillside fire a missile into Israel, I dont see much point in bulldozing a neighborhood of people trying to live their lives in order to teach the "Palestineans" a lesson.

Find the ones who shot the missile, try them, and let them rot in jail. I would cajole people to not render a bunch of innocent people homeless, while thinking it will teach the missile shooters a lesson.

But that is just me, and when the Israeli's mess with groups of Palestineans after a missile attack, I think it is bringing violence to somebody's door who did not ask for it, and the appropriate response based on what I teach is to beat the person to a bloody pulp until they stop attacking the student.

It is similar to slavery in the United States. I feel bad it happened, but I am a 4th generation Californian of German and Danish immigrants and I and my family on either side personally never enslaved anybody. I really dont think I personally need to pay reparations to the descendants of the enslaved, and I personally dont think the Palestineans need to pay reparations to the ones the German's threw in concentration camps.

Sinergy

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/29/2008 11:45:56 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

They day I give up facing facts and pretend that these 'It's not anti-semitism' hoaxes are true is never going to come.

You wrote this in response to me...
Repeatedly you call me and my Daddy holocaust deniers... put us in league with quacks like David icke and make statements that make it seem like our views were founded in the Protocols of Zion... It is tactics like these that revolt me when it comes to those cannot debate government policy without invoking hate speech. And you are invoking hate speech by more or less putting me in league with Hitler by stating such garbage... the last resort of the scoundrel is to do what you have done in your posts on this thread.

Believe it or not, one can not approve of a government and their actions and still think well of their people. I do not believe the people of Israel would approve of what their government does if they knew the entire truth of it... but from what I have read and heard they do not know the entire truth of it, just like Americans do not know the truth of what their government does. Until everyone has equal standing under the law in Israel they are not a true democracy. Until everyone has a right to work where they will in Israel, and all those born there have equal rights, will I think that Israel deserves any sort of standing.

I believe in a one state solution for Israel. A solution that gives private ownership of the land, a solution that acknowledges that all people are created equal, a solution in which Palestinians are seen as equal citizens. Why is that so hard for Israelis to do? Is it because they believe they are God's chosen people and that God gave them that land? Well, guess what? I do not believe that bullshit. They are no better than the Palestinians, they have no more rights in the eyes of a supreme being, and their treatment of people who are native to the territory they control is shameful

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 3/1/2008 12:05:08 AM

Hippiekinkster

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As I understand it, being "God's Chosen People" means that the Jews have been selected by God to bear the burden of upholding His laws. If anything, they are held to a higher standard than those who have not accepted YHVH as their God.

It does NOT mean that the Jews are better than others, which is the interpretation of those who are anti-Jew, and their fellow travellers. That interpretation comes from those who are either too intellectually lazy to discover just what "Chosen People" means, or those who deliberately spread anti-Jewish lies.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 3/1/2008 12:21:59 AM

SinergyNstrumpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

As I understand it, being "God's Chosen People" means that the Jews have been selected by God to bear the burden of upholding His laws. If anything, they are held to a higher standard than those who have not accepted YHVH as their God.

It does NOT mean that the Jews are better than others, which is the interpretation of those who are anti-Jew, and their fellow travellers. That interpretation comes from those who are either too intellectually lazy to discover just what "Chosen People" means, or those who deliberately spread anti-Jewish lies.

You know what, I am reminded of a debate I had with a Jewish friend of mine about Noam Chomsky when I questioned her about what she thought of his work.. she called him a "self hating Jew". If paying attention to intellectuals like Noam Chomsky makes me intellectually lazy... I plead guilty.

And your statements about how Jews are somehow held to a higher standard because they are somehow ethically superior as the law holders of the world is somehow less condescending to everyone, well I will concede, I never heard that one before... but yet again, I will say, any people that believe God gave them land and they have the right to kick other people off of the plot they farmed for generations as a result of this promise... well it is still bullshit to me. I ask mr hippy, if I said god told me that I was to have your land, would you give it to me?

Edited to add... I am also juliaoceania and I try to stay in that nick when posting off topic to keep it from being confusing, but I forgot to log into it

< Message edited by SinergyNstrumpet -- 3/1/2008 12:24:15 AM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 3/1/2008 2:00:38 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
As I understand it, being "God's Chosen People" means that the Jews have been selected by God to bear the burden of upholding His laws. If anything, they are held to a higher standard than those who have not accepted YHVH as their God.

Then why are they accursed with about 6.5 times more (lethal) congenital births defects as European christians?

Anyway: those laws are at least 2600 years old. They are outdated. Law-givers do change their laws occasionally. In fact such a law change was introduced about two thousand years ago by a guy who died and miraculously lived again, and by saint Paul who had walked the road to Damascus and commanded (paraphrased): "Thou shalt not mutilate the penises of thou males".

< Message edited by Rule -- 3/1/2008 2:50:30 AM >

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