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Voltare -> RE: Slave for sale? (7/14/2004 8:11:16 AM)
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Quite a hanful has been posted here on the topic, and I'm really rather surprised.
wizcitrix, Leonides addressed most of your concerns adequately. Rest assured that Gor and religon are completely unrelated, save for the fact that many Goreans seem to be nearly fanatical about their belief in Gor.
January: My first instinct was honestly that this guy was setting up a scam, hence my interest in the first place as a chuckle and a conversation starter. It would seem that he's genuinely interested in his slaves future, though I - personally - don't have interest in taking a slave incapable of choosing her future on her own. To me, this degree of slavery would simply be too much work (and I can say I'm shocked to even admit that fact.) This doesn't mean I don't believe others should/can - more power to them! I am more into the 'partner/lover' sense, that while I do wish a woman to be a slave - that she be a fully functional part of our society first. Gorean society (from the books that is) was quite different from the society we live in, thus 'slavery,' being common place, was no different then - say - the social mores that drive Islamic extremists to wish for women to be clothed, etc etc. We don't agree with what they practice, as the women in question have -no- option under the rigid society rules we live within. The same was true for Gor. In our 'real world' Goreans -do- have a choice to live as Goreans, or to leave the lifestyle if they wish. A Gorean slave retains the same legal status and all the protections under the constitution (depending on her country of course) whether she wishes for those protections or not. Thus, Gor is not a mandatory institution, but rather an ideal state of mind. Like Taggard, I don't personally find the mentality of Goreans and more strict M/s practicioners to be particularly different in philosophy, for reasons I will address below.
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ORIGINAL: Leonidas
Hello everyone,
If this man is what he claims to be, I would be surprised to see him asking for money. His motivation is simply to place a slave that he doesn't want anymore with another Gorean, because it sounds like that is what the girl is begging of him. Gorean slaves have a common fear that they will fall into the hands of a sadist, or worse yet, into the hands of a weak man who will try to please them, insteading of mastering them. His interest in your financial health would probably be more to assess whether you possess a key Gorean character trait than whether you can feed the slave.
The key phrase 'if this man is what he claims to be' was the crux of my concern, initially. As I didn't receive a dollar tag with a bank account or esgrow number, I would have to agree that any monetary exchange is likely to be ritualistic. The more fundmental element of the slave fearing to fall into the hands of a weak master, etc etc, are best left for a different thread - but suffice to say I would personally prefer a slave who is capable of making that last choice.
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The similarity between Goreans and mainstream D/s or M/s is superficial. We do some of the same things (keep slaves), but that is about where the similarity ends. From a Gorean's perspective, the measure of a man or woman's dominance (we would simply say fitness for free manhood or womanhood) has very little to do with the aptitude for keeping slaves, or even desire to keep slaves. It has to do with his or her character, and how he or she asserts himself or herself in the world in general. Goreans consider the mainstream M/s and D/s worlds to be exclusively focused on the interpersonal dynamic between people who are "submissive" and those who are "dominant" toward each other for the sole purpose of sexual or emotional gratification. So, in your community, when you say "he/she is a very good dominant" you are speaking exclusively about how they relate to submissives. When we way "he or she is a fine free man or women" we mean that they exhibit a dominant character, but it has nothing to do with submissives or slaves, except perhaps that the ethic of the person in question allows that slavery is ethical. This is the primary reason that we consider ourselves not a part of "mainstream d/s".
With respect, I disagree with your charactarization of M/s and BDSM lifestylers. I think to characterize a 'Good Dom' as being 'a person skilled at the relationships between himself and subs/slaves' is a bit like saying a good Gorean is someone who is skilled at disciplining a slave. There's clearly a great deal more to the mindset of a 'good' Gorean and a 'good' D/s or M/s Dominant then how he handles a slave. One of the first rules drilled into new Dominant's heads are in order to master another, you must first master yourself, and that one cannot hope to control others if they cannot control themselves. This is the initiation into a series of learning experiences (at least in my own experiences) where in the Dominant (and sub/slave for that matter) must come to terms with not just how to relate to others - but to understand the reasons behind their desires. A good Dom isn't just someone who can do whip tricks or goes to lots of play parties - they're someone who is intellectually, emotionally, and fiscally responsible. Any Dominant severely lacking these traits (and many others) is likely to find himself ostricized or worse from any accepted group. This doesn't mean all Doms in a group are good - because clearly not all Goreans are good either. I won't discount that there are many in the BDSM community who are simply intersted in the evening play party, or the one night stand. I would suggest there are equal numbers of individuals claiming the status of 'Gorean' who engage in exactly the same sorts of activities.
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Gorean slaves don't generally wish to walk away. As in the example of this girl, she wishes to be given ("sold") to another Gorean. From the Gorean point of view, slavery is a fundamental life choice. The slave gives up freedom and striving for their own account in life in favor of a life of service and devotion. She wants to remain a slave, and a Gorean slave. If she "chose to walk away" it would most likely be because her master failed in his attempt to determine whether the man she was being "sold" to was actually a Gorean.
I think you characterized the Gorean mindset on this issue quite well.
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This really doesn't have anything to do with Goreans, but it touches on a pet peeve of mine, so I'll comment. There is a non-consentual slave trade in the world. Poor men in north africa routinely sell off daughters because they can't afford to feed them, and the thinking is that they will be better off in the house of a well off owner than starving at home. There really isn't any socio-economic basis for slavery in this country. Men like this girl's father don't do it because of a sexual "kink", but I personally am sceptical of using anecdotes like this to prove much of anything. There are huge numbers of humans on this planet, and the law of big numbers will catch up to you eventually and produce some warped ones. We are bombarded with anecdotes like this in the media all the time, even though the things being reported on are so rare as to be inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, and impossible to control given the vast numbers of humans on the planet. I agree with Michael Moore (though it one of the few things that we agree on) that it is a trick to exert behavioral control through fear. Yep, there are bad people out there. Some of them are bad in a way that includes keeping people slaves against their will. The truth of these statements say absolutely nothing at all about slaves who are slaves because they chose slavery, or men and women who exchange these willing slaves among themselves.
I could take this a step further, and suggest that not only are there people held against their will, but that the entire culture in the US is slowly morphining into a 'self-slavery' style of social protection. As nobody wishes to claim responsibility for their actions, the Government is stepping up to ensure that rules are set so that nobody can hurt anyone else, or are so terrified of huge lawsuits and settlements that they completely restrict such interactions (old woman sues MacDonalds for millions over hot coffee spill.) It will land us in a country of curfews, food restrictions, and lukewarm coffee - and nobody will have the personal responsibility to step up and change it. But that too, is a topic for another thread...
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January, I think better of you than to believe that you would be throwing "cult" out there just to be inflammatory, so I'll say that a cult (in the negative sense, not like "cult film") happens when there is a group of people lead by a charasmatic individual or individuals that are able to instill "group think" on the group and get the group to do whatever they say. Gorean ways could be the basis of a cult, I suppose, just as Islam is the basis of Bin Ladin's cult and Christianity was the basis of Jim Jones' cult, but in that kind of cult, it is generally a man or women that is evil, not the idea or philosophy that they hyjack to use as leverage. There are no such leaders among Goreans, and there aren't likely to be.
I'll agree here as well - Gor isn't a cult. The word should be used carefully in this sense, because some people - inside and outside of the Gorean lifestyle seem to enjoy labeling Goreans as cultists. A group of people believing a common philosophy would - yes - be considered a sub-culture, but cult really does suggest religious influences with a central leader or figurehead.
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Ninety Percent of what you will read on the web has nothing to do with people who live as Goreans. There is an entire class of "online Goreans". They play what amounts to a role-play game online where they pretend to be on Gor, or in a Gorean tarvern or other venue. Most of what you read on the web, though it may seem like it's talking about real-life issues, revolves around what these folks do in the "virtual" world.
Food for thought... if 90% of the people online prefer the fantasy of Gor to the reality... and online is a relatively accurate representation of the real world population... that would suggest that only 10% of people claiming to be real life Goreans actually practice Gor. If I have 100 people on a field, and they start kicking a ball around... ten of them want to pick the ball up with their hands, and the other 90% say "no, we want to play it without touching the ball..." who's characterizing football here? The clear majority, or a staunchly vocal minority.
Truely, I have no qualm with people who wish to call themselves Gorean. It's just as good a way to live as christianity, buddhism, or even atheism so long as it doesn't infringe on the way others choose to live. On more then a few occasions, I've defended the way Goreans choose to live, and I still occasionally enjoy the roleplay online. By no means do I consider myself a real life Gorean, as the connectation leaves a bad taste in my mouth, based on the other 'real life' Goreans I've met in real time and online.
Excellent points made, Leonidas, and welcome to the boards.
Stephan
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