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Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 8:03:07 AM   
openlil1


Posts: 11
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline 		A longtime mentor/trainer insists that a slave in the midst of self-discovery and needing still to peel back ego needs "to be worked hard and often without the possibility of love."   Assume that this nascent-stage slave has accepted her internal slave and wants to free it fully.  She has always sought affection from dominants but has not found a relationship that works.   Should she still be looking for a vanilla/M/s blended relationship?  Should she eschew the "loving dominant" for an intense, intelligent and spiritual, very experienced man or woman who may be able to usher her through her descent?   Opinions from experienced Masters would be most welcome.
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 8:10:02 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Translation:

I don't want to give anything to you, just use you without strings.  If you are stupid enough to fall for this line, bend over and say ahhh.

In other words, this "trainer" has created a line of bullshit that allows him to get his kink on without offering anything in return.  Nothing wrong with wanting to "get yours" without offering anything (oh, except his wonderful training and mentoring) but it is fucked up to do it by creating a line of bullshit to mask what you are really offering.

Is it any wonder some of us rail against trainers and mentors?

quote:

  Should she eschew the "loving dominant" for an intense, intelligent and spiritual, very experienced man or woman who may be able to usher her through her descent?


Why not have all of it?  There are many here who have relationships filled will all those things.

(in reply to openlil1)
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 8:16:02 AM   
SirMIkeSD


Posts: 613
Joined: 3/16/2007
From: San Diego, Ca
Status: offline 		I would say that love is not needed to serve, trust is but not love.  Love may come later for both of you.  I know that when I took on my 2nd boy, I had no feeling for him but they are developing but I don't need to love him or my primary boy (who I do love, we have been together for 14 years).   But for me I have said all along that the D/s is what is important to me, and I will not be in a relationship with it.

Mike


(in reply to openlil1)
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 8:22:36 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: openlil1
A longtime mentor/trainer insists that a slave in the midst of self-discovery and needing still to peel back ego needs "to be worked hard and often without the possibility of love."   Assume that this nascent-stage slave has accepted her internal slave and wants to free it fully.  She has always sought affection from dominants but has not found a relationship that works.   Should she still be looking for a vanilla/M/s blended relationship?  Should she eschew the "loving dominant" for an intense, intelligent and spiritual, very experienced man or woman who may be able to usher her through her descent?   Opinions from experienced Masters would be most welcome.

So because this one trainer does not want love, you think you can't possibly find a master who does have everything?

Why not ask yourself why you keep getting involved with people who don't give you everything you want?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to openlil1)
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 8:31:42 AM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: openlil1

A longtime mentor/trainer insists that a slave in the midst of self-discovery and needing still to peel back ego needs "to be worked hard and often without the possibility of love."   Assume that this nascent-stage slave has accepted her internal slave and wants to free it fully.  She has always sought affection from dominants but has not found a relationship that works.   Should she still be looking for a vanilla/M/s blended relationship?  Should she eschew the "loving dominant" for an intense, intelligent and spiritual, very experienced man or woman who may be able to usher her through her descent?   Opinions from experienced Masters would be most welcome.


I can play with someone I don't love-- but that's about it.  With someone I love I can do what pleases him and that pleases me, when there is not love I just want to please myself.

I tried a relationship without love and found that imperfections that I can overlook with emotional attachment were deal breakers and I wanted out, quickly.

Everyones Miliage will vary.

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to openlil1)
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 8:38:54 AM   
openlil1


Posts: 11
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you to those who replied so far.   I should tell you this discussion is not about a current relationship.  It is a philosophical debate we have had for some time.  His argument, if i understand it correctly, is that allowing love to enter the equation somehow compromises the D/s.   i think he fears that one might submit in an effort to earn love...rather than from an acknowledged need to submit.  i hope that makes sense? 

It's sort of an inside-out of another ongoing thread about whether a D/s relationship in which love grows leads to more vanilla.  Seeing that thread made me wonder about this issue.

Again, thank you for your insight.


(in reply to OmegaG)
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 8:39:36 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		every one said what i would say to you, except one part:

define what love means for you. love could look like polishing his boots, and making dinner precisely to his expectations, or it could look like walks on the beach and sparkle jewelry.

define what love means to him as well.

chances are you are speaking to different languages, you see the word "love" through two different filters.

what i would recommend is leaving the word love off the table and sitting down and finding out what are the expectations of the dynamic.

what are the rules boundaries and limitations in your relationship as it pertains to:

physical contact
emotional intimacy
mental dependency
spiritual connectivity

love is just too broad a word for him to say that, and for you to just accept in cart Blanche.

one small note though, if he is a long time trainer as you say, he should have no problem ponying up some refereances....and i would start there...no wait... i would start with asking your self what do you want from training? what are your goals and expectations ....then ask the love language questions above...then get references and see how other trainees have felt about their training.

_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 8:54:20 AM   
SirMIkeSD


Posts: 613
Joined: 3/16/2007
From: San Diego, Ca
Status: offline 		For me love does not effect the D/s, in fact without the D/s and S/M love is not enough for me.  It would not meet my needs and sooner or later the relationship would go belly up.

Besides if you can't beat the ones you love who can you beat
Mike


(in reply to crouchingtigress)
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 8:54:35 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Do what works for you- some people find love does not serve them, some people find that love does serve them, in whatever way they choose to experience it.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to crouchingtigress)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 9:06:55 AM   
mrmorpheuslunar


Posts: 26
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: openlil1

A longtime mentor/trainer insists that a slave in the midst of self-discovery and needing still to peel back ego needs "to be worked hard and often without the possibility of love."   Assume that this nascent-stage slave has accepted her internal slave and wants to free it fully.  She has always sought affection from dominants but has not found a relationship that works.   Should she still be looking for a vanilla/M/s blended relationship?  Should she eschew the "loving dominant" for an intense, intelligent and spiritual, very experienced man or woman who may be able to usher her through her descent?   Opinions from experienced Masters would be most welcome.


I Find the post challenging.  The slave has come to the self realization that he/she is deficient, and seeks the guidance of a trainer / mentor.  The slave has sought out help.  It may be that the deeper core of the onion reveals that the slave does need love.  Utill slave goes through the process of being "worked hard and often" without any love, just the hard persistant pressing pushing, discipline of the mind, the discovery would never be made that love is required (if it indeed is).   I believe that as harsh as it may seem, the slave needs to be worked long and hard until the self realization comes that perhaps this slave does or does not need love to blossom.  The morphing of self into slave does not come without cost.
 
Personally I would prefer to simple love on and cuddle and nuzzle a slave into a wonderful useful servant, but if there psychosexual self calls them to slave reality, and their concious reality fights it, the luvy duvy cuddly nuzzle rarely works.  But I will always start with positive caring encouraging profiles and move to increasingly harsher treatments until the slave comes to a complete realization and hopefully it occurs before they fight the bit so harshly that they have a "hard mouth".

_____________________________

Mr. Morpheus Lunar is not into cyber freaks, endless x&o .... be real or be gone!

Mr. Morpheus L.

(in reply to openlil1)
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 9:10:50 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Let me put it this way.

To learn what D/s is, one needs to be able to work with the nuts and bolts aspect of it-and part of it is self control. Including emotional self control.

Some people get an intense pleasure out of simply having the dynamic for itself. It's neither better or worse than the standard emotional vanilla boyfriend/girlfriend dynamic-just different.

I think what he really may dislike, is the way the females so often lose thier focus when they allow emotion to rule-rather than attempting to excercise thier better judgment and powers of reason instead.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to openlil1)
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 9:44:58 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: openlil1

A longtime mentor/trainer insists that a slave in the midst of self-discovery and needing still to peel back ego needs "to be worked hard and often without the possibility of love."   Assume that this nascent-stage slave has accepted her internal slave and wants to free it fully.  She has always sought affection from dominants but has not found a relationship that works.   Should she still be looking for a vanilla/M/s blended relationship?  Should she eschew the "loving dominant" for an intense, intelligent and spiritual, very experienced man or woman who may be able to usher her through her descent?   Opinions from experienced Masters would be most welcome.


I think what he is trying to say (whipping out my "New Age M/S Spiritual Bullshit" Cracker Jack Decoder Ring) is that the Twue Slave needs to focus on the purpose of her identity as being "to serve".

Kind of like the Bene Gesserit saying from Dune "We exist only to serve..."

The purpose of a slave is to serve and its not contigent on love.

However, regardless of whatever he read off a matchbook advertising a copy of Slavecraft, this is not the One True Way.

If love is what drives you, then thats just the way it is. Whatever works for you. Some people don't need love to serve and they do what they do simply because of their identity as a slave. They aren't in an M/S relationship for love. They are in it solely because they identity as a slave and being in service to a Master is what fulfills them.



_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to openlil1)
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 9:52:55 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		And love that compromises serving IN the role of a slave is NOT what works for them.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

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Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 9:56:03 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. I could easily see that being a factor in why some people I have met avoid love in service.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to Leatherist)
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 9:57:07 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I have seen those who were into it for the dynamic express how they enjoyed the stability. Emotions are not stable.

One's womans heartless bastard is another's fullfillment.

< Message edited by Leatherist -- 2/21/2008 9:59:56 AM >

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 10:02:40 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Do what works for you- some people find love does not serve them, some people find that love does serve them, in whatever way they choose to experience it.


First, I absolutely loved what SimplyMichael wrote.

I agree with LA. A gross generalization like the OP refers to by nature makes it completely bogus. We human beings are complicated mental creatures and have significant differences in how, what and why we want to live a certain way.

All types of relationship dynamics have a percentage of people together that love is not a factor but the majority, including power exchange ones, does require love on some level to be a critical element. So it is not out of reality to be in a loveless relationship but most just cannot be content in such a thing.

The question when ego gets discussed is all of a submissive’s motivations when with a dominant based on a reward system. In other words are things done by the submissive to specifically get specific things in return? I mention this because that is where ego often clouds the picture. A key part of being submissive is letting the ego go. To stop filtering thoughts such as I think it should be done this way or ask why on everything.

But it is also a lot about learning to let go of expecting something specific from doing something for your other. So if a submissive is chasing love, specific actions and compliments many times when doing specific things then that is something they will need to work on. There is a difference between being in a loving relationship and doing things to chase tangible affection. You can be in a loving and affectionate relationship that is a power exchange relationship but just like in regular relationships love and affection is not something that you should make conditional, expect specifically how and when and to manipulate your other.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 10:16:06 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		The single biggest mistake I see subs making, is this.

Trying to use another to validate thier fantasy-rather than actually complying with the desires of another.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 10:58:32 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: openlil1

A longtime mentor/trainer insists that a slave in the midst of self-discovery and needing still to peel back ego needs "to be worked hard and often without the possibility of love."   Assume that this nascent-stage slave has accepted her internal slave and wants to free it fully.  She has always sought affection from dominants but has not found a relationship that works.   Should she still be looking for a vanilla/M/s blended relationship?  Should she eschew the "loving dominant" for an intense, intelligent and spiritual, very experienced man or woman who may be able to usher her through her descent?   Opinions from experienced Masters would be most welcome.


My opinion is different than the majority opinion stated here.  Some Masters just don't feel the need to love their slaves.  I personally see nothing wrong with it.  Even trainors/mentors often do not come to love their subjects.    When I came to serve my Master, I never did so with the expectation that he would love me in return.  I did so because I needed to submit to him - - it fulfilled me to do so.  His pleasure is what drove me.  His approval thrilled me because I knew it meant I was succeeding in what I set out to do.

That he DID come to love me was icing on a very sweet cake.  He said he does not go into Mastering a girl with the intention of loving her...that is not what fulfills him, although he often becomes very endeared to a girl who submits to him.  But he did not say there is no possibility of love.  I am one to always strive for possibilities, and if I were told something would not ever be possible, it would limit me from the start.

(in reply to openlil1)
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 11:02:31 AM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: openlil1

A longtime mentor/trainer insists that a slave in the midst of self-discovery and needing still to peel back ego needs "to be worked hard and often without the possibility of love."   Assume that this nascent-stage slave has accepted her internal slave and wants to free it fully.  She has always sought affection from dominants but has not found a relationship that works.   Should she still be looking for a vanilla/M/s blended relationship?  Should she eschew the "loving dominant" for an intense, intelligent and spiritual, very experienced man or woman who may be able to usher her through her descent?   Opinions from experienced Masters would be most welcome.


My opinion is different than the majority opinion stated here.  Some Masters just don't feel the need to love their slaves.  I personally see nothing wrong with it.  Even trainors/mentors often do not come to love their subjects.    When I came to serve my Master, I never did so with the expectation that he would love me in return.  I did so because I needed to submit to him - - it fulfilled me to do so.  His pleasure is what drove me.  His approval thrilled me because I knew it meant I was succeeding in what I set out to do.

That he DID come to love me was icing on a very sweet cake.  He said he does not go into Mastering a girl with the intention of loving her...that is not what fulfills him, although he often becomes very endeared to a girl who submits to him.  But he did not say there is no possibility of love.  I am one to always strive for possibilities, and if I were told something would not ever be possible, it would limit me from the start.


I don't know how strong m'Lord's feelings are for me, and honestly I see that as a different subject.  I need to love him, yet I don't need it reciprocated.  But that's not to say that he treats me like a wet dishtowel that he wiped the dog down with.  I am his responsibility and he attends to that responsibility, what drives his actions, I do not know.

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Slavery without love? - 2/21/2008 11:34:36 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Well, I'm no slave. I'm submissive to one. I submit to one I love, I trust, and who inspires my submission with his dominance.

It sounds as though this mentor is telling you what works for him. But where he's very wrong is believing that what works for him is what will automatically work for you.

Maybe you would do better scrapping the advice of someone who has needs so vastly different than your own?

You have always sought a D/s relationship with love. Forget about the labels sub/slave/pet/Dlg. Figure out what qualities makes up your ideal partner. That list obviously includes love, respect, dominance and a whole slew of others. Then meet lots of people and assess them as to how compatible you are.

I'm not a slave. I'm submissive to one. And I wouldn't permit myself to act on feelings of submission until I knew he was someone I could trust, and until after we were in love. I've been in this relationship 4 1/2 years, we're still happily in love, and I follow him more deeply and easier each day. How long has your mentor been in his relationship? How many relationships has he had in his life following his relationship model? Things to ponder.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to OmegaG)
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