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Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/17/2005 11:17:04 AM   
MissChicane


Posts: 39
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		When it works for you... when that person you have, knows your wants and can act on them like that *snaps fingers* - it can be a beautiful thing. I was just with a girl (sister sub) - who seemed to have been conditioned and manipulated by her ex so much that she found it absolutely difficult to do anything other than what she was used to.

She was conditioned not to show affection or to recieve any, but our Dom is an affectionate man... and whenever he asked her to cuddle with him, she would (at times) pull away and say she needed space. He bit the bullet many times... and held off a lot of affection to give her, her space. Well, that's just a bit of it... the list goes on... but anyhow - i'm sure it's possible to undo this sort of thing... and I'm sure it takes a long time.

Anyone have this sort of experience? How did it work for you? How are you suppose to undo conditioning with a person who seems to be set in their ways?
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/17/2005 11:52:53 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		By the time we're adults we've already gone through years of social and personal conditioning, forming habits and personalities that will take a lot of effort to really become aware of and change.

First the person has to WANT to change their habits/ways. Then the person has to become consciously aware of what exactly they are doing and where it comes from, working towards the source of the behavior. The person can either try to just break the habit, or replace it with a new one (replacement tends to work better). Then, simple re-conditioning can come in, the same way that conditioning works the first time- repeated action/reaction coupling.

It can take a LONG TIME, years, to break, and change well developed habits. Someone who has insecurity issues may take a lot of counseling, a lot of self-introspection and years of new habit forming before they can become truly confident in themselves.

(in reply to MissChicane)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/17/2005 11:54:13 AM   
theRose4U


Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline 		This is a more difficult situation than just conditioning. It sounds like she was outright abused. Imagine a dog that has been beaten...you can be the kindest person but if you raise your hand quickly they cower & shake.
Depriving a person of love and affection violates one of the most basic human needs. This is something that your Master will have a hard time working through. As a sis I would recommend talking to her & trying to help understand where these feelings come from. Unfortunately the duty falls to your Master to help her understand HIS expectations for her behavior. It then falls to them to work out whether she will rise to these expectations or will leave.
I do find it unfortunate that there are people out there that will do such things. Professional intervention would probably not be out of the realm of necessity if you can find someone that also understands your current dynamic & would be able to help her heal her individual wounds in a seemingly poly arrangement.

(in reply to MissChicane)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/17/2005 12:45:24 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I have some friends going through a similar situation -- they are kinky and poly but they do SM and bondage and some Ds, it isn't the defining aspect of their relationship.

They've started family therapy together cause frankly her abusive background (yeah, I'd say it sounds more like she came out of an abusive relationship than anything I'd be comfortable called a Ds relationship) will affect everyone. It will a long and difficult road ahead and you will all need help.


_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to theRose4U)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/17/2005 1:16:24 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Ther four essentials in deprogramming such folk are

1... Time

2... Patience

3... Love

4... Care

If those are combined and some professional Counselling are added then there is a good chance of a full recovery.

Will it be easy? Not on your nelly it may in some cases be so similar to helping a junky go cold turkey. You just have a better chance for a sucessfull outcome.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/17/2005 3:53:03 PM   
MissChicane


Posts: 39
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		her past may as well be filled with abuse... though every attempt at helping her seems to push her further away. If help is suggested she begins to distance herself from us.

(in reply to IronBear)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/17/2005 4:24:13 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Don't forget that sometimes people can't be helped. They're just not ready, or they're not in the right situation--whatever the problem. It sounds as though you two are doing absolutely the best you can, and if her problems are so severe that she still doesn't turn around, well then maybe there's nothing you can do for her.

(in reply to MissChicane)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/17/2005 5:26:23 PM   
cmatrix4761


Posts: 73
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline 		Sounds like your friend has deeper issues than just fear of affection.

-- CM
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissChicane

When it works for you... when that person you have, knows your wants and can act on them like that *snaps fingers* - it can be a beautiful thing. I was just with a girl (sister sub) - who seemed to have been conditioned and manipulated by her ex so much that she found it absolutely difficult to do anything other than what she was used to.

She was conditioned not to show affection or to recieve any, but our Dom is an affectionate man... and whenever he asked her to cuddle with him, she would (at times) pull away and say she needed space. He bit the bullet many times... and held off a lot of affection to give her, her space. Well, that's just a bit of it... the list goes on... but anyhow - i'm sure it's possible to undo this sort of thing... and I'm sure it takes a long time.

Anyone have this sort of experience? How did it work for you? How are you suppose to undo conditioning with a person who seems to be set in their ways?


(in reply to MissChicane)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/17/2005 6:27:22 PM   
MissChicane


Posts: 39
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		seems so... what I feared *shrug*

(in reply to cmatrix4761)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/17/2005 8:40:57 PM   
Delvin


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/23/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Sometimes a common tactic is to cause drama/strife to either be released, or to draw more attention to HER and away from the other slave(s) in the house. This might be a cause now, though if you see it as different then trying to control the attention to her, perhaps seeking a professional who has experience with M/s relationships. A general psychologist is not always the best avenue.

If your Master does feel there is past abuse, I would suggest stopping ALL activity with her at the moment, and work on the past... not even trying to introduce new ideas at this point, as past emotions are at play

D

(in reply to MissChicane)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/17/2005 8:47:43 PM   
MissChicane


Posts: 39
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		good insight Delvin... there is a lot of evidence of past abuse... physical, mental, emotional, and financial - all of which we have been doing our best to help her with. We've even put aside many of our own wants and desires to help ease her through it - but we only find rejection.

(in reply to Delvin)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/17/2005 8:59:59 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline 		MissChicane,

As others here have pointed out, it sounds more like her past "master" was one of those that is really not much more than an abusive man using a title to mask what he really is.

These things certainly do take time to work through, and the person has to really want to work through their issues. Based on your comment about it being conditioning of a previous "master", I am assuming that you have just asked her outright about her issues with affection. If you haven't, I would suggest that you do. Doing so in a way that shows concern rather than accusation is a good way to possibly open up a dialog.

Being denied or "trained" to not show or seek affection would have to be one of the most vile forms of abuse I could think of. Assuming that the other responsibilities or whatnot that your Master has given her are being met, and also assuming that your Master (who seems like a kind, considerate and compassionate man) does not want to let her go at this time...you might just try letting her know that y'all are an affectionate family, and that you also understand it might take time for her to "warm" to that idea. Don't push her to give or show affection, but always let her know that all doors are open if she would like to discuss it and that when she is ready, she will be welcomed with open arms, literally.

When a child who has been abused is placed into a loving home, they will exhibit some of the same traits you speak of. Always reminding them that they are loved and cared about enough to allow them to relax and become a part of the family at their own pace gives them that "space" and the comfort of knowing they aren't being pressured. Except for cases where the abuse was very extreme, most children in time relax and open up. Certainly, this girl is not a child, but in a case like you have described the same methods could prove to work well.

Good luck. I hope that you don't give up on her too soon.

(in reply to MissChicane)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/17/2005 10:00:16 PM   
lonewolf05


Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline 		yes. "I" am such a case. i also was programmed not to be affectionate.

and with my new Mistress it has been difficult for Her to reach-me in my heart...
i shied away from touch.
now i welcome it.

wolfie


_____________________________

"there is no gravity, life sucks!"


(in reply to MissChicane)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/17/2005 11:56:05 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		At the risk of upsetting all the "Nice" people here, if I was havibng to deal with this lass and she repeatedly pusherd me away etc etc. My first thing would be to confront her with the situation. (Refer to Gestalt Therapy if you want more info.) depending how the confrontation went, I'd probably tell hor right in her face with out malice that she qwas actibng like a drama queen (notice she is NOT being told thay SHE IS but that SHE IS ACTING LIKE). Sher be tiold to start allowing us to help her or pack her bags and cut loose, and not to make further contact untill she wanted to be helped and wanted to make changes.

Its a rough technique but in so many cases people are not ready to be helped or make changes. the can live quite happiny on all the attentiion they get. I've told more attempted suicides to go a jump and stop pissing me about so I can get back to bonking some female, that I care to try to count.... Often the shock value has a positive effect, if not their is always the tasser unit or a sleeper hold and restraints

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to lonewolf05)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/18/2005 6:39:39 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		While I understand that your post is meant to address the bigger picture, I do have a comment on the specific example used in the original post.

Not wanting to outwardsly show affection may be mutually exclusive to conditioned traits. I'm the same way as your friend, and very rarely display affection. That's just how I am, and I really don't want to change.

If I answer my cell when you call ... that's how I show affection. If I keep coming around ... that's how I show affection. That's not a conditioned trait, it's just how I am, and relationships work better when we accept people for whom they are.

On the practical side ... if someone gets me drunk, I become considerably more affectionate.

(in reply to MissChicane)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/18/2005 8:33:22 AM   
MstrHellsFury


Posts: 388
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline 		I just have a small question about this thread...not to throw a bomb into this or in any way not respect the question as it stands...but...don't we look at someone..and accept them as we find them...and if you have a need to change that person from who and what they are...did we accept the right person in the first place???(the answers can be a brutal as you want to give)...just a question

Fury

(in reply to MissChicane)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/18/2005 9:18:22 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrHellsFury

I just have a small question about this thread...not to throw a bomb into this or in any way not respect the question as it stands...but...don't we look at someone..and accept them as we find them...and if you have a need to change that person from who and what they are...did we accept the right person in the first place???(the answers can be a brutal as you want to give)...just a question

Fury



Speaking as someone who was abused as a child and who has done a lot of work to undo that conditioning, sometimes you don't know what you are getting.

Part of surviving abuse is learning to hide yourself and protect yourself. When you met anyone it is so very easy to present a picture of what you think will draw the least about of abuse.

Its only over time and with earning trust that some of the past comes out. It is almost never on purpose but you may try to annoy or push away the other person, attempting to make them become the abuser you got used to because you can survive that -- you did afterall.

I've also had submissives who turned out to have abusive pasts (I think we attract each other cause there's a sense we'll understand each other). If they won't get help and work on things, I show them the door. I mean, I've worked on my stuff, I work on beating my conditioning of 22 years why should I expect or accept less from someone else?

If they want help and you decide to help them get it and see them through it, it will a damn lot of work and very difficult. In the end you get the real them, a closer version of what they can truly be.

Speaking as a dominant let me say that owning such a person who has worked so hard and continues to fight for themselves but still gives what they have to you fully, is the most rewarding relationship I have ever been in.

It should not be done lightly nor should it be pursued by most people.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to MstrHellsFury)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/18/2005 4:45:05 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrHellsFury

I just have a small question about this thread...not to throw a bomb into this or in any way not respect the question as it stands...but...don't we look at someone..and accept them as we find them...and if you have a need to change that person from who and what they are...did we accept the right person in the first place???(the answers can be a brutal as you want to give)...just a question

Fury




You have given the precise reason why I am so anti cult busters generally. far too many see people through their own filters of what they expect people to be, how they expect them to act and what they expect people to believe.... So many people (Often friends and family) will not accept change in others (Often on a sexual and religious basis). I keep reminding people that the one they are determined to "Rescue" is am adult who has the right to make their own decisions.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to MstrHellsFury)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/18/2005 4:49:08 PM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		i risk sounding like an idiot here, but what is cult busters? pepole that take down cults?

(in reply to IronBear)
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RE: Undoing Conditioning... blah - 9/18/2005 7:25:22 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		While I agree that the concept of being someone's knight or rescuer is terribly over-rated, and that taking on the task of completely remaking someone is usually futile and not worth the effort, I fully believe in the concept of training and improving someone.

As a slave I accept and expect that many of my habits and perspectives will be actively changed to suit the Owners purposes. Whether it's quitting ice cream, quitting a job or quitting my worry habits, part of my relationship is such that I accept to work with him to change and train myself to become the best fit for him.

Now, it's usually best to find someone who ALREADY fits to a good degree, or who you will be fulfilled with and can train over time. And sometimes you find after you "fit" with someone, you change and no longer fit eachother at all, that's life.

But I think there's a level of reasonability here that we shouldn't lose sight of- on either side of the fence.

(in reply to IronBear)
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