RE: Submissive Archetypes (Full Version)

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bleusparkles -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/21/2008 9:21:48 PM)

I was encouraged to be more rough and tumble but I always secretly identified with the helpless princess. I wanted my prince to come and save me.

Over the past couple of years though, I've learned to identify more with women like Eleanor Roosevelt. I guess my archetypes are evolving.




Archer -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/21/2008 9:28:09 PM)

Warrior does not have to mean fighting for anything specificly, you can fight for whatever cause in whatever way and still be a warrior. The mentor who fights for the minds of the young against the influences of a bad neighborhood is being a warrior. The activist for any cause is a warrior.

A Magician means more that you know and use the technology and specialized knowledge than anything nessisarily "magical" So the the guy from "Geek Squad" with all the special knowledge of how these things work is accessing the Magician, at the same time the Plumber, the Machinist, the Welder, The Salesman, they all work their "Magic" and weild their special knowledge. Most Magician aspects are seen in the workforce world of men.

Lover is more about connection to the universe and other people than specifily "Love" although that kind of "Love falls into it as well. The dreamer, the artist the poet fall heavily into the "Lover" archetype.

The King is about bringing order to your world, it doesn't matter how big your kingdom is you may be king of a very small kingdom. (A man's Home is his Castle) refers to the idea of each man having a bit of a King in him.

And it's not to say that we have to stick to one in fact it's more about the fact that all men have some level and some aspect of each.

In fact Jung speaks about having a ballance of each is the goal. Enough King to order the universe of your home/ family.
Enough Warrior to fight for the things you belive to be "right", to suffer the hardships and through discipline overcome the "evil". Enough Magician to build  your knowledge and create inside your kingdom comfort.
Enough Lover that you feel the connection to the world and other people (social and spiritual connection).

I think the idea of King in your own home should clarify that you have King.
From your own discription Cop is that not a warrior? fighting for justice?
Magician likely you have specialized knowledge in many areas of life predominantly work field I would guess, but also hobbies, Hell even maybe some SM skill sets?
Lover, can be anything from the cuckold to the Dom Juan (extream shaddow forms), from the artist to the afficionado, anything involving connection to other people and to the spiritual tends to fall into the Lover. odds are you have some aspect of that as well.

To be a definative archetype it should be as close to a universal aspect of the human condition as possible.
You can have good kings and bad kings, good warriors and fanatics, people who use their special power/knowledge to benifit mankind or keep their secret knowledges for themselves, People who are so connected to the spiritual that they can't function in normal society and those who use the connectiuon for evil intent.









chellekitty -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/21/2008 9:30:45 PM)

i am not exactly sure how to respond to this question...because i know that The Great Mother is the archetype that i identify most with...the woman that takes care of everyone...provides and protects...and generally submits to very few that don't have to prove themselves more dominant because they just are...if that makes sense....but at the same time, in my mind this is all in the context of big cats...all my life that has been the relation i have made in my mind...i didn't have human hero's...i looked up to the characteristics of large cats..i wanted to be one large cat or another at various times in my life...as a small child a cheetah...later a panther (black leopard)....now it is a black jaguar...i never wanted to be a princess, or a mermaid, or a warrior or anything else like that...perhaps a harem girl every now and then, when i was really horny...lol...but mostly a large cat...subitting only to my mate, providing and protecting "my young" with a ruthlessness that would scare most...hmmm....oh well....i think i need kitty time...any puppys want to play? <weg>

chelle




bleusparkles -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/21/2008 9:33:21 PM)

*tackle-pounces the kitty doing a puppy sneak attack* [sm=mrpuffy.gif]




HerLord -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/21/2008 9:43:19 PM)

TY Archer.
The explanation listed here helped A LOT! If this be the types as you described, I guess I would be a King/Warrior/Magician. I don't like people, mostly all they do is piss me off, so I will account for no Lover type. I guess If any of this list apply the one would be more warrior than anything. For I am fervent in protection of mine.

To answer OP. I related most to the bad cop roles... good heart, non criminal, fuck the rules kinda guy. I feel like the loner guy that comes in to clean up the messes others make. You know, a botched assassination, call a "cleaner", come in kill everyone, dispose of messes, and get back to my day. All about getting the job done effectively as quickly as possible to move on to things I want to do. Like... sitting. Sitting is good.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Warrior does not have to mean fighting for anything specificly, you can fight for whatever cause in whatever way and still be a warrior. The mentor who fights for the minds of the young against the influences of a bad neighborhood is being a warrior. The activist for any cause is a warrior.

A Magician means more that you know and use the technology and specialized knowledge than anything nessisarily "magical" So the the guy from "Geek Squad" with all the special knowledge of how these things work is accessing the Magician, at the same time the Plumber, the Machinist, the Welder, The Salesman, they all work their "Magic" and weild their special knowledge. Most Magician aspects are seen in the workforce world of men.

Lover is more about connection to the universe and other people than specifily "Love" although that kind of "Love falls into it as well. The dreamer, the artist the poet fall heavily into the "Lover" archetype.

The King is about bringing order to your world, it doesn't matter how big your kingdom is you may be king of a very small kingdom. (A man's Home is his Castle) refers to the idea of each man having a bit of a King in him.

And it's not to say that we have to stick to one in fact it's more about the fact that all men have some level and some aspect of each.

In fact Jung speaks about having a ballance of each is the goal. Enough King to order the universe of your home/ family.
Enough Warrior to fight for the things you belive to be "right", to suffer the hardships and through discipline overcome the "evil". Enough Magician to build  your knowledge and create inside your kingdom comfort.
Enough Lover that you feel the connection to the world and other people (social and spiritual connection).

I think the idea of King in your own home should clarify that you have King.
From your own discription Cop is that not a warrior? fighting for justice?
Magician likely you have specialized knowledge in many areas of life predominantly work field I would guess, but also hobbies, Hell even maybe some SM skill sets?
Lover, can be anything from the cuckold to the Dom Juan (extream shaddow forms), from the artist to the afficionado, anything involving connection to other people and to the spiritual tends to fall into the Lover. odds are you have some aspect of that as well.

To be a definative archetype it should be as close to a universal aspect of the human condition as possible.
You can have good kings and bad kings, good warriors and fanatics, people who use their special power/knowledge to benifit mankind or keep their secret knowledges for themselves, People who are so connected to the spiritual that they can't function in normal society and those who use the connectiuon for evil intent.










Archer -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/21/2008 9:57:29 PM)

Just as way of giving you reason to rexamine yourself, (something I love to do to people)
Things in your profile that indicate aspects I listed.

King: Dominant, LOL what Dominant can exist without a connection to the inner King/ Queen? LOL
Magician: Woodworking expert What expert does not have specialized knowledge that would be almost magical to someone without the knowledge.
Lover: Wicca (spiritual matters are the relm of the Lover) Tai Chi, All the arts that you have listed as a appreciation for. The fact that you have someone listed as "Your Love" as well as the erotic arts you have listed, these are about connection with your "Love".

BTW if you look there is a book title of the same archetypes I listed earlier that gives a much better understanding of what each of the archetypes for men listed are etc. Much better researched than my little bit here.
The Book is King Warrior Magician Lover (Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine) Available from Amazon.

I have it in my personal collection and list it as suggested reading for people looking at starting their journey as a Dominant, or even those who've been around awhile and want another perspective to look at things from.




HerLord -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/21/2008 10:10:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Just as way of giving you reason to rexamine yourself, (something I love to do to people)
Things in your profile that indicate aspects I listed.

King: Dominant, LOL what Dominant can exist without a connection to the inner King/ Queen? LOL
Magician: Woodworking expert What expert does not have specialized knowledge that would be almost magical to someone without the knowledge.
Lover: Wicca (spiritual matters are the relm of the Lover) Tai Chi, All the arts that you have listed as a appreciation for. The fact that you have someone listed as "Your Love" as well as the erotic arts you have listed, these are about connection with your "Love".

BTW if you look there is a book title of the same archetypes I listed earlier that gives a much better understanding of what each of the archetypes for men listed are etc. Much better researched than my little bit here.
The Book is King Warrior Magician Lover (Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine) Available from Amazon.

I have it in my personal collection and list it as suggested reading for people looking at starting their journey as a Dominant, or even those who've been around awhile and want another perspective to look at things from.


I have everything available marked in some fasion for I did not intend to put tyhis much effort into this site. I made knwon what was available to know without more spcifics on the count that a like most subjects as long as they do not require me to encounter other people. So why do I seek the insight of other people here? Excellent question. I will reply.

I seek from here that which is unknown to me, and might further my own... "superiority," not so much from other people, but from myself at my starting point.

There are persons I like, but as a whole I have to agree with Agent K from Men In Black... "a person is smart. People are stupid, dumb, panicky animals..." I think it's misquoted, but the jist is there.

This is reason I give no credit to me as a Lover, but those who have shared my bed will attest, I am damn good at it. (lol)
*ego stroke*













King, Warrior, Magician, Lover - Rediscovering The Archetypes Of The Mature Masculine by Robert and Gillette, Douglas Moore (Paperback - 1993)

1 Used & new from $22.00

TY. I will have My Love aquire this for me.




MasterFireMaam -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/21/2008 10:14:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HerLord

Mybe I missed something essential... But you only list 4 primary archetypes. While I will not go into ALL of the archetypes, I think it worth mentioning that there are many left off the list.


I don't think Master Archer meant that these are each man's primary archetypes...he meant that they are the 4 most popular of all the archetaypes available for men in our western society to have.

Master Fire




laurelgoat -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/21/2008 10:49:42 PM)

They are the four most basic archetypes. Start delving deeper and you just get more specific. Mind you, there are some people who are such an even mix of the four that it becomes impossible to really distinguish them in that manner. But archetypes are all about the broad, sweeping statements, not about individuals, really.

I like digging a little deeper, personally. It opens the floor for a more concrete idea of who a person is while still remaining vague enough that it allows for individuals. For instance, the 'Everyman Hero' archetype that's present in pulp action stories from 'Big Trouble in Little China's' Jack Burton to John 'Yippe-ki-yay' McClane in the Die Hard movies. It's a recognizable sub-type composed of aspects of the four basics, but specific enough that it can stand on its own while still embracing very different characters.




ForHisOwn -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/21/2008 11:03:09 PM)

I always identified with Cat Woman from the Batman TV series. Sexy and evil. I don't know why, but I've always tended toward the dark side. *purrrr*

But I knew I was submissive before I knew I was a feminist.




PrizedPosession -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/21/2008 11:08:03 PM)

Susan B. Anthony
Anastasia (not the cartoon mind you)
um...yea...that's it for girls lol. When i was younger i didn't really have many to look up too, i was playing football, basketball, soccer and drawing[8D]

OH Sailor Jupiter too i guess




bluemind80 -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/22/2008 12:09:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

So the view of the Hero archetype for both male and female children growing up is pretty universal. All those cartoons and TV shows tend to be about the "hero" the child growing into adulthood who goes through the ordeals and as a result the child "dies" and re emerges as an adult. Cartoons of modern times tend to minimize the tranformance and make it some Magical transformation from average to heroic. Dangerous ground to tread considering the realities of life.
minimizing the idea of challange and growth and maximizing the role of magic powers.
Lacking Magic powers how does a child grow into a hero? They are left to question this idea. Rather than being taught that a hero grows up and takes on mighty challanges and sticks to it until they overcome the opposition. (or insert the value you want to make universal)


I think this is one of the best things I've read in ages, on any forum.
I had been thinking that the one character that I most related to when I was a child was Sarah from Labyrinth. She starts out as a spoiled brat who hates her brother, on her journey she finds, or realizes, her strength and intelligence and while she does finally grasp that life isn't fair she also figures out that you can't let that hold you back. She also finds out in that last scene with the Goblin King that a lot of the time the only power people have over you is the power that you give them.
I think that movie is a great example of how years ago you could see a character grow from a child to an adult whereas these days that sort of growth happens almost instantly, even if magic isn't involved it usually only takes one or two smallish obstacles or mistakes to make them come of age. The only other character to to my mind to come onto the screen lately that makes that non-instant growth is Tristan from Stardust, throughout the movie you really do see him become a man.

Aside from Sarah the only other female character I ever really identified with was an elvish engineering genius called Tick-Tick from the borderland series of books. She was smart, empathetic, a strong character all round and while she could use magic more often than not she'd prefer to use her tools and mechanical know-how. And while I can't think of any other characters I really identified with or wanted to be like I do remember being really annoyed with/at Disney princesses. I think for me it was always that they seemed to just wait for somebody to come and rescue them, I could never understand why they didn't try to rescue themselves.

Edited to add:
To answer the second question; No, no change.




RCdc -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/22/2008 3:11:14 AM)

My nan was and still is a big identity marker for me.  But as y'all don't know here, that isn't going to make much sense.[;)]
I have been attracted to more historical and mythical women.  Boudica rocked, as does Aphrodite coz I am big on the love thing.  Marion has also been on the list and on a fictional front, Leia Organa from is more the princess I identify with and as a very young child, I was always George (Georgina) from the Famous Five.
 
Did these changed? - Not one bit, although they have been added to by a couple in my adult years as they didn;t exist or I didn't know of them as a child.
 
the.dark.




Viridana -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/22/2008 3:19:25 AM)

I've always found Nanny Ogg extremely intriguing...




Justme696 -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/22/2008 3:26:54 AM)

Uhh I always wanted to be like my dad...haha
strong, intelligent..honest and fair....and damn kind
still have many years to succeed in that..so that is good

So no girl wanted to be like her mother?




StormsSlave -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/22/2008 7:08:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I think the error so far in this post is to identify specific people as the archetypes. (Master Fire being the notable exception).
It's not the specific character but the role they hold.
For men a quick listing of 4 of the Primary archtypes would be King, Warrior, Magician, Lover.
It is also important to note the presence of the shadow forms of the archetypes, as well as the mature vs the child manifestations.
examples being The warrior has both the coward and the sadist (pathological as opposed to SM type) as it's shaddows.
The King has the precious/devine child as well as the highchair tyrant as it's immature archetypes.

So the view of the Hero archetype for both male and female children growing up is pretty universal. All those cartoons and TV shows tend to be about the "hero" the child growing into adulthood who goes through the ordeals and as a result the child "dies" and re emerges as an adult. Cartoons of modern times tend to minimize the tranformance and make it some Magical transformation from average to heroic. Dangerous ground to tread considering the realities of life.
minimizing the idea of challange and growth and maximizing the role of magic powers. Lacking Magic powers how does a child grow into a hero? They are left to question this idea. Rather than being taught that a hero grows up and takes on mighty challanges and sticks to it until they overcome the opposition. (or insert the value you want to make universal)


Actually, I believe the OP was intending for specific examples of who submissves looked up to as a child.  I don't think it was intended to be a discussion of the general archetypes of men, submissive or otherwise.  Or, perhaps I'm confused.

Justme696--My mother is an amazing woman, and I am just like her, like I always feared.  However, I think I'm like most women in that until I was an adult, I was convinced of my own brains being superior to my mothers.  It took one daughter to make me realize that my mother is a friggin genius, teacher, and all-around incredible person.




juliaoceania -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/22/2008 7:17:18 AM)

I wanted to address this thread again because it got me to thinking about something....

Is this  really about being submissive or about gender? What role models are submissive men supposed to have? I am sure there are dommes that very much identify with being a spoiled princess also. Soldiers can be some of the most submissive people around... submitting constantly to the authority of others... just saying




PrincessEllie -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/22/2008 7:55:46 AM)

I don't think I ever connected myself with any specific chatracter, but I was always the girl who rooted for the sadistic bad guys in movies and books and stuff, without really knowing why. But now I do!




SailingBum -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/22/2008 8:17:08 AM)

Catwoman from the batman days.   Only cuz I wanted to bang her.

BadOne




lateralist1 -> RE: Submissive Archetypes (2/22/2008 8:52:06 AM)

I'm a Domme but I'm an archetypal male. My role models were all male except for George (famous five).
However growing up in a male dominated society looking like a woman being forced into woman's roles takes it's toll.
My generation had the pill but a man could still insist on his conjugal rights. If you weren't married and had a child it was still labelled a bastard and equal pay only existed in certain professions.
Feminism to me is about women having equal opportunities to be who they are. It maybe just as difficult for some men.




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