RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate

RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (Full Version)

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crouchingtigress -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/22/2008 7:36:27 PM)
quote: I guess a girl can dream. i want a pony...no wait...thats not exactly right.

Lumus -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/22/2008 7:42:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TracyTaken quote: Nope, we'll always have labels. Make them more meaningful outside of their umbrella-like nature...that's another thing. I guess I'm confused. Aren't you suggesting making a bigger umbrella (not like that's a bad idea, IMO)? The profiles have always existed. No, more along these lines: CM is the 'government' of this outlet of the BDSM community [or society, if you prefer]; they dictate the labels we have when creating our profiles, so we only have the choices presented. Now I haven't gone through the creation process in some time, nor did I look for a slave or submissive option for myself [;)] I gather there is only the submissive option, however. If that is the case, I was suggesting that rather than try to change the machinery of the 'government' [the owners/runners of CM], change our outlook on how we utilize this place. If CM doesn't distinguish between slaves and submissives, take the submissive option and then expound through profile. Define yourself, and let others know you in that regard - which, for the moment does not translate well on the boards because all you see is a pic and a nick...no Dom/sub/Switch/slave/geek/what have you. Well, that's not as true now that you can run your mouse over an avatar and see the first line or two of a profile...hopefully you catch my meaning, though. To bring it back to an interpersonal level, where we refer to each other [where applicable] as 'slave' or 'submissive'...rather than try to construct our own generic definition of what each one is, just roll with the self-imposed 'title' and let it be otherwise. The meaning of the terms lose their flavour put under a homogenous catch-all label; slave and sub mean more from a grass-roots perspective than they ever will from a more global, encompassing, sterile definition. We make them bigger than they are, methinks. shrugs Could be wrong.

TracyTaken -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/22/2008 8:21:45 PM)
quote: But then again, responding to the label at the top of a thread, without reading even the initial post, and responding with a comment about the futility of labels, is a pretty good case in point of the sameoldboringcrapswirlingdownarathole that this thread was intended to offer a possible alternative to. I see it all as the same thing: quote: Here is something worth noting about (submissives, dominants, relationships, etc) in a very general way. People seem to fall into 2 (or 3 or 4 or whatever you find) general categories when considered in terms of this issue To my eyes, that is exactly what happens over and over and over again. The problem is, IMO, people don't really fall into categories, especially when some are talking about a past time, some are talking cyber or fantasy, some are talking r/l scene stuff, some are talking about dating, some are talking about commited relationships, etc. (with room for overlap). One thing I do see: This problem of constantly going around in circles over definition does not seem to exist to the same degree in the male submissives, slaves, etc., categories; in the Master, Dom , etc., categories; or in the Domme, Mistress, etc., cateogories. I wonder why it such a huge issue where female submissives, slaves, etc., are concerned. I do believe that it is best to let people define themselves for themselves. If I try to define you, Noah, I would certainly be wrong. So if I call myself a submissive, who decides what I mean by that? I can say that I'm a mom, a wife, a stripper, dog washer, a heterosexual, and no one assumes anything more than the minimal: She has given birth She is married, She takes off her clothes She washes dogs She is not homosexual How silly would it be to try to detect different levels, complete with labels, of marriedness or stripperness or homosexuality? I say that knowing full well that some sociologist somewhere probably attempted it. [8D]

Lumus -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/22/2008 8:31:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TracyTaken To my eyes, that is exactly what happens over and over and over again. The problem is, IMO, people don't really fall into categories, especially when some are talking about a past time, some are talking cyber or fantasy, some are talking r/l scene stuff, some are talking about dating, some are talking about commited relationships, etc. (with room for overlap). One thing I do see: This problem of constantly going around in circles over definition does not seem to exist to the same degree in the male submissives, slaves, etc., categories; in the Master, Dom , etc., categories; or in the Domme, Mistress, etc., cateogories. I wonder why it such a huge issue where female submissives, slaves, etc., are concerned. I do believe that it is best to let people define themselves for themselves. If I try to define you, Noah, I would certainly be wrong. So if I call myself a submissive, who decides what I mean by that? I can say that I'm a mom, a wife, a stripper, dog washer, a heterosexual, and no one assumes anything more than the minimal: She has given birth She is married, She takes off her clothes She washes dogs She is not homosexual How silly would it be to try to detect different levels, complete with labels, of marriedness or stripperness or homosexuality? I say that knowing full well that some sociologist somewhere probably attempted it. [8D] The thing is, we categorise ourselves. Defining ourselves makes more sense, frankly, although sometimes we have to maneuver to do so under the labels we have to work within. The happy medium to me seems to be as I mentioned before; start with the labels you have to pick from; refine them with personal touches [ie profiles]; and then be referred to in that manner instead of taking on more labels from outside sources.

gypsygrl -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/22/2008 8:31:28 PM)
Ok, I'll give it a try. From another thread: "You have all the rights afforded to you by the government of this broad brown land of ours; you simply choose to wave those rights in order to fulfil your sexual fetish or emotional need." That's one of the most thought provoking comments on slavery (the kind some of us practice here) I've come accross. When I read it, I was like, wow, that's exactly what I've done-- symbolically trashed a couple hundred years of political struggle because it gets me off. I mean, jeeze, what kind of a person does something like that? It was just one of those things that kind of stunned me when I read it. Better than the usual slave vs. sub fare.

Lumus -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/22/2008 8:39:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gypsygrl Ok, I'll give it a try. From another thread: "You have all the rights afforded to you by the government of this broad brown land of ours; you simply choose to wave those rights in order to fulfil your sexual fetish or emotional need." That's one of the most thought provoking comments on slavery (the kind some of us practice here) I've come accross. When I read it, I was like, wow, that's exactly what I've done-- symbolically trashed a couple hundred years of political struggle because it gets me off. I mean, jeeze, what kind of a person does something like that? It was just one of those things that kind of stunned me when I read it. Better than the usual slave vs. sub fare. The kind of person who does that is the kind of person I would think it suits, n'est pas?

MadRabbit -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/22/2008 9:16:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gypsygrl When I read it, I was like, wow, that's exactly what I've done-- symbolically trashed a couple hundred years of political struggle because it gets me off. I mean, jeeze, what kind of a person does something like that? Hmm...I don't think it's tooo detrimental to the feminist movement. After all, the fact that you are making a free choice to trash those rights or not to trash those rights is still empowering to women in and of itself. As opposed to the past where you just kind of had to accept dishwashing and cocksucking and suck it up (In more ways than one).

Noah -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/22/2008 9:45:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gypsygrl Ok, I'll give it a try. From another thread: "You have all the rights afforded to you by the government of this broad brown land of ours; you simply choose to wave those rights in order to fulfil your sexual fetish or emotional need." That's one of the most thought provoking comments on slavery (the kind some of us practice here) I've come accross. When I read it, I was like, wow, that's exactly what I've done-- symbolically trashed a couple hundred years of political struggle because it gets me off. I mean, jeeze, what kind of a person does something like that? It was just one of those things that kind of stunned me when I read it. Better than the usual slave vs. sub fare. Thanks, gypsygirl. A lot to think about there. I've responded in depth on the other side.

HerLord -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/22/2008 9:55:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Noah quote: ORIGINAL: HerLord An End? It seems to me, that one of the reasons there is no "end", is that, if it were to end, what the hell would we all fight about any way? It is human nature to... oppose? Well, let me try another route... We as people, spend entirely too much time trying to be right, as My Love would say. The importance of being right in ones own mind conjers many varied emotions. One of them being a necessary inclination to debate/conflict/argue. For a limited few, it is more important to learn, but in large these debates about glossary terms and title definitions go on forever because, well, I gotta be right. (I in the collective meaning) Until people agree to title other people as "people," there can be no end. Other "Titles" "labels" bitch single mom slut workaholic nigger nerd freak geek dog lover people person divorcee loud mouth braniac boss picker loader driver superintendant As you can see, labels are everywhere. Some are offensive in nature, some less so, such as widow/er. The "label"ing of people is always going to continue. It's as though what ever some one else calls another is all that defines them. Labels, titles, and formal designations are all intended to sum up a whole person into one neat little tidy uniform of interpretation that will not and cannot allow individualism on any level. The only exemption is; I AM an asshole. Another thing I think would be a really cool idea would be if people would read at least the initial post before responding to a thread. But then again, responding to the label at the top of a thread, without reading even the initial post, and responding with a comment about the futility of labels, is a pretty good case in point of the sameoldboringcrapswirlingdownarathole that this thread was intended to offer a possible alternative to. Noah...so to start with, instead of reading what's posted, you'd rather insult the poster. Telling us to give our thoughts, then telling us that what we posted isn't the proper thought...?? Sure, that makes perfect sense. I did read your rather rambling and disjointed post, and took what I could manage to take from it. My assertion is that the motivation behind the label is completely irrelevant, as are the labels themselves. The only labels that should apply are the labels we put on ourselves, should we choose to do so. People will apply the labels to whomever they choose, for motivations that are usually neither uplifting or beneficial to any of the parties. So, what the hell difference does any of your egotistical posturing and intellectual masturbation going to make?

Noah -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/22/2008 10:28:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HerLord Noah...so to start with, instead of reading what's posted, you'd rather insult the poster. Telling us to give our thoughts, then telling us that what we posted isn't the proper thought...?? Sure, that makes perfect sense. I did read your rather rambling and disjointed post, and took what I could manage to take from it. My assertion is that the motivation behind the label is completely irrelevant, as are the labels themselves. The only labels that should apply are the labels we put on ourselves, should we choose to do so. People will apply the labels to whomever they choose, for motivations that are usually neither uplifting or beneficial to any of the parties. I'm pleased to consider all these thoughts you have about labels, Herl. I'll admit I'm unsure as to why you chose to put them in a thread aimed specifically at trying something different than having that old familiar labels conversation one more time. Later, if you decide to post something on topic I'll be sure to read that too. quote: So, what the hell difference does any of your egotistical posturing and intellectual masturbation going to make? What the hell difference does my <that stuff> going to make? Dude, your grammar matched your facial hair! That's awesome. And no I'm not being sarcastic. I really think that's awesome. To address your question: I enjoy <that stuff>, first of all, and it gets me plenty of prime gash, which is good. For more particulars please see the rambling and disjointed post at the top of the thread. Honestly, Herl. The object here, as explained above, was to try to find a way to talk about our insights into kink without clomping into the too familiar morass of recycled opinions about labels and definitions. If my original post was too disjointed to get that across I apologize. Still buddies?

catize -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/22/2008 10:43:15 PM)
quote: Ask not what your observation can do to get everyone in BDSM to agree on the meaning of some term. Ask ... well ... what else it can do. What it has done for me is make me wonder about myself. I know what I have accomplished. Given the right circumstances would I be capable of more than I can imagine? The debate rages in my own thoughts and the water remains muddy. I do envy those who have found their own certainty.

BitaTruble -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/23/2008 2:33:10 AM)
I'm going to start off with quoting PL and this insightful little gem. quote: Part of the confusion, I think comes from the fact that for many of us, (not all) are more committed to this type of relationship because it fulfills us, and satisfies us like no vanilla relationship would. Because we value it more, we work harder at it. Then we say “Wow, these D/s relationships are…” Harder, deeper, etc. The reality is that we choose to work harder, communicate better, develop more trust. Reading this caused one of those lightbulb moments for me and I recognized that whatever I may have been before, what I am now has the most meaning for me so I do work harder at it and value it more. Being a submissive satisfy's me like no other state of being, so I work harder to embrace that aspect of myself. Submissives rock! Take out submissive, insert slave and it still works. Take out slave and insert vanilla, top, switch etc., and by George, they all work, too! I think that when viewed in the way PL explained things, the definitions of the words (slave, submissive, top, master, switch etc.) have less meaning as it's the journey, itself, which is the story and "I am a slave, submissive, top, master", is just the last line of a given chapter. A thread titled X journey's, might be one which would prove worthwhile. Something along the lines of .. "Tell me of your journey. How did you get to where you are from where you started?" Not so much "what got you started" but rather "what kept and what continues to keep you moving? What do you wonder about and what do you aspire towards? If you're where you want to be, what's next for you?" What good would that do for the general readership? ::shrugs:: Maybe nothing or, maybe everything. A chance for a little communion, a little fellowship. A chance for someone who sees themselves in the words/writing of someone else and says .. hey, yeah, me too! Maybe they'll share their own story, which, no matter how similar is still going to have unique variations which, in turn, may speak to someone else. Oh hell. I think I just had a kumbaya moment, but, strangely, I don't feel bad about it. [8D] Celeste

StormsSlave -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/23/2008 4:26:27 AM)
Noah--I would like to clarify one thing for the sake of my own understanding. It sounds to me like you are asking these questions: 1. Have you ever found that applying labels or having labels apply to you has been beneficial, and how? 2. Have you had negative experience from having labels applied or applying them, and how? I'd like to get clear before I try to answer.

HerLord -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/23/2008 4:29:37 AM)
Thanks for the conciliatory gesture. Still buddies. No worries. I suppose that, after reading so many posts about it in as short a time as I've been frequenting this board, I am already tired of it. I imagine after three years of it, it would be exponentially more frustrating to delve into the same old material. No matter which way you come at it, or how you look at it, in the end labels are all just ways to put individuals in a box. Agreed, titles are given for different attributes, but I maintain that we should call people what is THEY choose to be called. For example, their fucking name. LOL

ThinkingKitten -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/23/2008 4:44:25 AM)
You 'll never change the way people on t' "other-side" market/label themselves, or the way they whine about it here. Look at who has actually contributed to this thread. For the most part, only seasoned CM posters. Sure there are a lot of lurkers out there, but there are also a lot of hit and run transient's who come in from the "other-side", don't read much of anything before starting a thread about sub vs. slave, Dom vs.Master, or whatever and vanish never to be seen or heard of again. They'll never see this. The arguments/complaining will continue, for anything else would suggest that some kind of intellectual revolution had seeped through the planet......

Justme696 -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/23/2008 4:57:00 AM)
At OP lol we can say you didn't succeed in stopping the discussion ;) Aslong people have brains we will discuss about things

thetammyjo -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/23/2008 8:08:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Noah quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo You mean people actually wording what they say as their opinions and drawn from their experiences instead of making proclamation as though they were the Divine?! That's just crazy, Noah. At least in my opinion and experience... And maybe even doing so without derisive sarcasm, if that wouldn't be too much to ask. My reply wasn't to be sarcastic with your idea just that while it is perfectly logical and reasonable the vast majority of human beings aren't. I think your suggestion is great. I don't think it is realistic and I want everyone on this website to have positive experiences -- unrealistic expectations are a big cause of negative experiences in my experience. So, you are going to keep seeing threads that argue things you think are stupid, stupid, stupid. I'd suggest just ignoring them or practice your suggestion yourself with the knowledge that most others will not.

Rule -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/23/2008 8:21:21 AM)
I know the differences, according to my hypotheses, between the natural slave and the (two types, I suspect, of) natural submissives. I am inclined not to share. Telling might prevent harm, but also cause harm.

celticlord2112 -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/23/2008 8:23:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress catchy title...almost had me. if you really want an end to the debate, two words: active listening....not only would it solve the sub/slave conundrum and every other petty pedantic platitude but it could also be very effective in negotiating with warring country's, solving food and housing shortages and and creating a framework for the whole world to ....gasp...love one another. but then if you really wanted an end to the debate i doubt you would have written this post. Two better words to end the debate.... more beer.[:D]

Noah -> RE: The end of the sub vs. slave debate (2/23/2008 8:40:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize quote: Ask not what your observation can do to get everyone in BDSM to agree on the meaning of some term. Ask ... well ... what else it can do. What it has done for me is make me wonder about myself. I know what I have accomplished. Given the right circumstances would I be capable of more than I can imagine? The debate rages in my own thoughts and the water remains muddy. I do envy those who have found their own certainty. Hi catize, One other possible possibility (!) might be [have I qualified this enough] to gradually and gently try to direct energy away from the internal debate, away from considerations of your capabilities and more directly into your capabilities themselves, or to wherever the energy seems to want to flow. This would include you capability to proceed with exploring and expressing these aspects of yourself without holding them up to measure against standards such as "what might I be capable of?" and standards such as Certainty. Now I may have mistaken your intent altogether, and not quite gotten the senses in which you were using certain key words. Please forgive me if I'm uterly off target with all this. My impression over time is that you're into confronting what you're presented with with a nice mixture of seriousness and humor, and with integrity as well. I'd value that over a sense of certainty any time. Sure, the feeling a person has which they call certainty can be powerful. Sometimes it can be the power of faith, which can move mountains. But then sometimes a sense of certainty is little more than a comfort a person has acquired about their own closed-mindedness in regard to this or that, or closed-mindedness in general.. Or even closed-heartedness. Good questions can do a lot for you. I've found that much of what they can do is pretty much unrelated to getting answers, especially final, definitive answers. Thanks for posting.

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