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Violation of Commitment? - 2/22/2008 9:12:58 PM   
StormsSlave


Posts: 629
Joined: 2/6/2008
Status: offline 		I'm sure that I'm going to fumble this, but I'll try to do it right so that it's clear and the feedback relevant to the information that I'm trying to glean.  I don't seek approval or agreement.  I would only like to hear if others have had this experience, how they handled it, and what they think. I have much to learn, and the thoughts of others can only help that process, imho.
Please be patient with me. 

Recently there was a thread regarding a violation of trust between dom and sub where the sub was questioning whether or not to stay in the relationship.  The overwhelming concensous here seemed to be to kick him to the curb, do not pass go, do not collect $200.  That got me thinking.

My Lord and I had a similar experience.  I won't go into detail, but suffice it to say I felt violated and angry, (not to mention my physical pain) and my trust in him was absolutely tainted.    He immediately took responsibility, and began to the process of rebuilding trust immediately.  

I belive that most of the drama and trouble in my life is created, at least in part, by my own self and my own decisions.  To that end, I stepped around my anger, pain, and hurt, and forced myself to look at it objectively.  I had to decide if there was responsibility for me in this.  There was.

I was not assertive in my submission (that does make sense in my head.)  We had a safety word, but it was a weak one, and in my eagerness to please, I tried to use it way too late.  I had been less than responsible about it before, unwilling to admit where my own limits were.  In spite of my desire to please, I now know that in the emotional state My Lord was in, I should have taken responsibility in the start to say "no, not tonight," and merely held him until the storm passed.  I don't mean to exonerate him from all guilt, so please don't read it that way.  I merely aim to correct my own mistakes and to be as honest with myself as I am with others.  Owning my part of it has allowed us to move on, to retain our love, and to correct the mistakes made on both sides.

It came down to a choice: I could cry and moan, beat him over the head with guilt, and never get past it.  Or, I could forgive, correct our mistakes, hold him lovingly accountable, and be determined to avoid it in the future.  I chose door number 2.  Because of that decision, this stumbling block has become a learning experience, it has built a stronger foundation between us and the trust has been rebuilt.  Communication between us is more of a two-way street, with me being more open, and I am much more assertive in our sex.  We now have two safety words: one for ease up a little, one for stop completely.  He's extremely careful to control his emotional state, and I am much more assertive in stating my wants and needs (which seems to please him more, anyway.)

The truth is, I'm no innocent.  Though he may have hurt me physically, I have, in the past, hurt him verbally.  Please don't say it's not the same.  With a turn of phrase, I could tear his heart out, and in fits of anger have said things that violate the trust between us, the secrets he's entrusted me with.  Is a physical violation worse than an emotional one?  Not in this woman's heart.

This is relationship.  We have agreed that we both love kinky, rough sex that brings us both a huge amount of pleasure.  We both skim the edge of our limits constantly, heightening our pleasure and satiating both of our needs.  Our worlds, our lives, our money, our friends, everything about us is intertwined in an intimate knot that is more beautiful than anything either of us could have imagined, and we cherish it, for neither of us could recreate with another.

So, here's the point of this long ass post: which would be more important to you -- the relationship or the violation?   At which point do you decide to cut your investment in the other person and get out?   What are your thoughts on the matter? 

Thanks for reading.

Cheers.



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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/22/2008 10:03:01 PM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		I think it's an excellent question, and one that has a different answer for every relationship.  For all I know it could have been my post that you read. 

You are absolutely right.  I had a chance to walk away and I chose not to.  There was more intensity than I was ready for, and more pain.  (I am a passion slave, not a masochist.)  My Dom and I talked about it calmly afterwards over the course of many days.  His goal had been to give me pleasure and he got carried away.  He realized later that it backfired big time and decided that he needed time to think about what drove Him beyond what He knew I could tolerate.

There are two main things to look for:  Whether the communication between the two is good and whether it becomes a pattern.  We all make mistakes sometimes, or get carried away in our passion.  I feel even closer to my Daddy now that we've come through this together than I did before.  Not all people could do it, but cheers for those who can.


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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/22/2008 10:09:11 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I have said before that my Master is about 95% spot-on accurate in his decisions for me, with about a 5% error rate.  I submit to all my my Master, though, not just 95% of him.  So I can live with the 5% and simply let them go.  He is human, after all, and I accept that.  And compared to my error rate, well, who am I to complain?! 

I communicate my concern, trust he is doing the best he can, let it go, and move on.

Edited to add...I also was committed to my (former) marriage rather than the violations, and cut my losses way too late.  Then again his error rate was about 75%.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 2/22/2008 10:10:31 PM >

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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/22/2008 10:52:27 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Fulfillment for me is what's important.  When a violation renders fulfillment impossible.  And I do set the standard for fulfillment pretty high these days.

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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/22/2008 11:20:40 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

the relationship or the violation?



Depends on the violation and the relationship... much too broad of a question for a simple answer. There are also too many variables to consider them all in a message board posting.


quote:

At which point do you decide to cut your investment in the other person and get out? 


I have come to the point where I cut my losses in a relationship based on a couple of criteria. If I am perpetually unhappy, feel consistently unappreciated, and sense that the incompatibility is systemic within a relationship I will eventually cut my losses. If I felt abused in a relationship I would leave immediately. I am not talking about a bad scene, or words said in anger, I am talking about being abused.

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/22/2008 11:41:01 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

So, here's the point of this long ass post: which would be more important to you -- the relationship or the violation? At which point do you decide to cut your investment in the other person and get out? What are your thoughts on the matter?


Speaking for myself, I value the relationship.  However, I think it is worth noting one key element of your experience:

quote:

My Lord and I had a similar experience.  I won't go into detail, but suffice it to say I felt violated and angry, (not to mention my physical pain) and my trust in him was absolutely tainted.    He immediately took responsibility, and began to the process of rebuilding trust immediately.


He fucked up....he owned up to it....the two of you moved on together.  That's how I read your OP. Very often in these threads, when one side or the other makes a mistake, they refuse to take responsibility for the mistake and its consequences.

I've made a ton of mistakes with my slave, and if anyone is taking bets I'd wager money I'll make a ton more before we're done.  But when I see that I've screwed up, I do what I can to own up to it and take responsibility for the consequences.

People screw up.  That is inevitable. What dooms relationships is when people refuse to admit their screw ups.


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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/23/2008 2:37:39 AM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline 		It's pretty cut and dried for me.  If I thought they wouild A make the same error again.  B Made a similar mistake.  I would move on otherwise I think it could be worked out.  The standared is the same for any relationship.  Weather it's family, friends, whathaveyou.  It's kinda like what I used to tell my kids.  I may not always like you, however I will always love you.

BadOne

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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/23/2008 4:13:32 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		We all give breaks now and then so that is not even a question for me. One thing that may seem paradoxical is that those who are more in control in a relationship tend to forgive bad behavior easier. Those who feel unsure about the others’ loyalty will react harshly because they feel the slight they have been expecting all along. If I feel confident about my power over a sub and she does something I don’t like, possibly I would say so what, doesn’t hurt me.

That actually punishes her even more because she knows I don’t care about her role in the relationship enough to be upset. It’s also a time for her to examine why I don’t care that much and possibly she will see that she behaves badly too often is the reason. (Disclaimer: This is totally a work of fiction and any similarity to real people and situations in my life at this time is not intended. :)

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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/23/2008 5:16:52 AM   
MissLily


Posts: 146
Joined: 8/19/2007
Status: offline 		Great post Stormslave!

when a violation of trust happens to Me, it IS a deal breaker. It's like a chip came off the positive feelings I had for the person.

Then, like you said, it's up to Me to own My part of the problem. The thing is to reflect on what happen and voice it. You have to figure out if it's worth it I guess. With some people I would not bother, but with others, I most certainly would.

If the person is whilling to discuss, then it's possible to correct the situation and to rebuilt the trust. It takes time and hard work, but it's possible. I just think it's the adult way to go about it no?

Miss Lily

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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/23/2008 6:26:07 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Storm,

Welcome to being a fully functioning and healthy adult!  Seriously, owning your part of a problem, working WITH your partner to resolve it, choosing a partner who is willing to do the same for you, is as good as it gets.

Believe me, I have made worse mistakes than most people here and I even managed to learn from many of them.  BSB and I have had a few issues, we have hurt each other a few times, pissed each other off a few more, both made mistakes.  We did exactly what you do, realize our partner loves us and worked together to move to a better place. 

I think many enter relationships they shouldn't because they are looking for a perfect partner and the only way to appear perfect is to fake it.  Real people have issues, make mistakes, screw up, the healthy ones admit it, work on it, and move on.

CONGRATULATIONS!

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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/23/2008 7:56:24 AM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StormsSlave

So, here's the point of this long ass post: which would be more important to you -- the relationship or the violation?   At which point do you decide to cut your investment in the other person and get out?   What are your thoughts on the matter? 


Pretty good post, Storm. ~smiling~

The problem is that most people cannot be objective, and no one can be objective about themselves 100% of the time. It isn't a failing, it's that our brains are wired to view ourselves in the best possible light. Hopefully we can step out of ourselves once in awhile to get a broader picture, and hopefully we listen to others if we hear the same things about ourselves over and over again so that we can take pride in ourselves or so that we can work on the trouble spots.

The relationship, to me, is the important thing. It is also important, however, to take note if the other person's actions are consistent. If those actions are consistent, do they mesh with what I want and need, and are these actions healthy? This self-care can also be difficult for a variety of reasons. It takes a lot of effort to change a situation, even when it is not healthy for us, in part because of momentum and status quo.

Hopefully, not many people throw the baby out with the bathwater. And, hopefully, people can sometimes see their own roles in given situations (or at least be good communicators and listeners) so that these little bumps in the road can be resolved with as little stress and damage as possible.

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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/23/2008 8:47:21 AM   
StormsSlave


Posts: 629
Joined: 2/6/2008
Status: offline 		Thank you, everyone, for your insightful, intelligent, and most importantly to me, honest responses.  There is a surprising comfort in knowing that we are in good company.


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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/23/2008 9:31:09 AM   
LadyHathor


Posts: 775
Joined: 1/2/2008
Status: offline 		I wanted to offer something to this posting, but I find I am too imperfect--yet I did want to add that this was so nicely written, so honest and well presented.
 
The parts that I really hope people grasp out of this are these:
 
quote:

 I should have taken responsibility in the start

 
Submission like Dominace does not absolve one from personal responsibility in the relationship.
 
quote:

To that end, I stepped around my anger, pain, and hurt, and forced myself to look at it objectively.  I had to decide if there was responsibility for me in this. 


This is a huge statement that I wish every Dominant and submissive would internalize---stepping around the roadblock of emotion to see the situation objectively--this is huge, huge--and I applaud you for this, this is a huge lesson for everyone.
 
quote:

I was not assertive in my submission (that does make sense in my head.)


If I do not give you a sense of direction with My Dominance, you have no place to go--the same is said of submission if you do not give Me a sense of direction, I have no where to take us. Each side must own their dynamic. If you expect Me to own Mine and yours, have no relationship, IMHO.
 
quote:

Communication between us is more of a two-way street, with me being more open


It takes work in a relationship, submission does not mean, you have no voice, Dominance does not mean I have no ears.
 
Awesome post, truly a lesson to be learned here for everyone.

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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/23/2008 11:49:58 AM   
ThunderRoad


Posts: 231
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline 		An important part of determining what to do is to make sure to understand "intent".  If someone did something purposefully to be an ass, then you can make that question of character.  But if it was an accident, then unless a pattern of "accidents" develops that can't be addressed, it's really unfair to hold someone to the fire when they are trying their damnedest to do things right.



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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/23/2008 3:11:47 PM   
goodgirlkitten


Posts: 15
Joined: 8/18/2007
Status: offline 		i am fairly new to posting in the forums. Actually a wonderful friend sent me the link to this thread. i love what E/everyone had to say. This thread has helped me greatly, and has opened my eyes to a new view of what has happened in a wonderful relationship. Thankyou!

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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/23/2008 3:47:52 PM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I value the relationship with myself most.

There is no cut and dried answer.  Mistakes happen and in truth we cannot know anyone intent but our own.  We can decide if we forgive or walk away and usually there are so many factors that need to be taken into account, if the person is angry when the mistake was made, is it the first time they made the mistake, are they contrite, could I have been more proactive in preventing it and if I was more proactive would the other person listen or act accordingly to my actions or words, is the relationship salvageable or did the mistake cause a schism that is irrepairable......

Not only is it an individual decision, but it's a case by case evaluation.

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Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/23/2008 3:58:21 PM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline 		A lot depends on the what it was that was violated. I can take a lot of Sturm und Drang in a relationship, handle more than a bit of pain, even handle a poly situation. That would not change the way I feel about my Master. There is one act that he could do, perform, whatever you want to call it that would destroy the relationship and force me to walk away. He would no longer be the Master I love, the man who captured my heart but a stranger and one I do not want to know. No need to say what that act is. He knows, it destroyed my last marriage when I found out. But I know he would never fall so low in humanity as to do that. 

poenkitten

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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/23/2008 4:06:07 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StormsSlave

  At which point do you decide to cut your investment in the other person and get out?  



When the Hope of Happiness is outweighted by the Expectation of Pain.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/23/2008 4:47:22 PM   
AtlantaMistress


Posts: 276
Joined: 6/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

I think it's an excellent question, and one that has a different answer for every relationship. 


There are two main things to look for:  Whether the communication between the two is good and whether it becomes a pattern.  We all make mistakes sometimes, or get carried away in our passion.  I feel even closer to my Daddy now that we've come through this together than I did before.  Not all people could do it, but cheers for those who can.



I agree in that every relationship - situation is unique and so a general rule of thumb is hard.  For me - trust and communication are key in any relationship.

When communicating, you must be able to make the other party understand how you feel, not make accusations about you did _____ wrong, but that when you did ____, it made me feel _____ (which is not acceptable to me. ) Is whatever you felt enough to negate the good that you feel the relationship brings. If so - than you try to move forward.

If trust is violated - can it be rebuilt? If you choose to forgive, you must truly be prepared to do so, and let it go - give the other person the chance to earn the trust back without constantly harping on the problem of the past. You can forgive, but it can be very hard to forget (and it is ok not to forget). It is not fair to say you forgive, then constantly punish the person, anytime something happens. If you forgive (after whatever punishment is necessary) than you have to let it go - try not to let the anger ruin the chance for the person to rebuild your trust.

If the relationship is worth it, than you forgive and give the person another chance. It must not be a pattern...insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

No relationship is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. If you can communicate about your problems, the mistakes should not be repeated. I'm sorry can be an easy word to say. Actions speak MUCH LOUDER than words. If you are truly sorry, it doesn't happen again, and getting through the bad times can strengthen a relationship.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'd rather be hated for something I am than loved for something I am not.


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RE: Violation of Commitment? - 2/24/2008 8:51:03 AM   
StormsSlave


Posts: 629
Joined: 2/6/2008
Status: offline 		I just wanted to say thank you one more time.  I appreciate that these responses come from the heart.  Thanks so much.

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