RE: New Confusion... (Full Version)

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SimplyMichael -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 9:10:57 AM)

quote:

How this became a definition of submission is beyond me, but check out most submissive profiles and they are filled with things they will let/won't let, with details about the how much and how hard any 'let' can be inflicted on them.


Merc, I don't think that having limits is a sure sign that someone is not being submissive. I think what makes the difference is WHY you set those boundaries, not where they are set at. While I agree many are ONLY there to get their needs met, or will "put up with x, y, & z" to get their needs met.  However, I think having boundaries is healthy, even if you have knowingly set those boundaries at death. 

quote:

  Then there are the actual submissive profiles. Those who will 'do', if allowed; promising to never exceed any limit, committed to serving the dominant's safe-words.


I didn't get this part.



mnottertail -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 9:18:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
That is why I say:
The notion of women's submission is wholly fantasy; they are just dominating from the long way 'round.
You are there because you want to be there, some benefit is perceived as accruing to you.
Ron  


Ron -
THANKS for the Sunday morning laugh! I can pass over the comics today.

Not that you don't represent a large share of those participating in the 'lifestyle' its the representation about submission being a 'fantasy' - gendar notwithstanding. You see, I think you are correct. Most don't submit, most 'let' someone do something to them. How this became a definition of submission is beyond me, but check out most submissive profiles and they are filled with things they will let/won't let, with details about the how much and how hard any 'let' can be inflicted on them.

Then there are the actual submissive profiles. Those who will 'do', if allowed; promising to never exceed any limit, committed to serving the dominant's safe-words.

I agree with you - Funny stuff!

My only discrepancy with your assessment is when you made it an absolute. When you made it "wholly fantasy" you took away the possibility of exceptions. They do exist, again gendar notwithstanding. They are rare, but they do exist. 


Yeah, thats the thing, Merc...I am not an omipotent Master, the real slaves slip thru my hands.

You get all these girls that lay out this fucking scrap about;  wanna be caged, forced to eat   grubworms, shit on. pissed on, living and existing in filth 24/7/365 and I think to myself, yanno, I might just be your boy........ and so you write a letter of introduction, no war and peace kinda thing, ask them a question, where exactly does my world view of the way things aught to be fit in there, and then you make the masterful comment, when I take you out to cook my dinner or to fuck you, you can better believe you are gonna wash your ass up with at least a luffa and some comet (or at least those scrubbing bubbles) for a pretty long time before you go on to getting with me.....so we are gonna have to back off the total thingie, well confidentially; they get kinda  huffy about it.

Ron  



LadyHibiscus -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 9:23:28 AM)

Maybe YOU are the one supposed to wash them off, Ron?




mnottertail -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 9:26:30 AM)

Doesn't that confuse the whole Master slave dynamic, thingie?

You see how pervasive this is.

Ron



Jeffff -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 9:29:38 AM)

It is high time someone put a stop to it!

Good Luck, my freind

Jeff





LadyHibiscus -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 9:32:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Doesn't that confuse the whole Master slave dynamic, thingie?

You see how pervasive this is.

Ron


well I figure the top can do whatever he or she wants, and if he wants to get on there with a scrubbie and some tilex, well HEY!



softness -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 11:03:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

That is why I say:

You are there because you want to be there, some benefit is perceived as accruing to you.

Ron  


I agree with the second part of what he said ... but aditional to that

IMO there is no such thing as a truly intentional altruistic act .. just doesn't exist . Any girl choosing to be in submission has made the choice to be there and being there is better than not being there.

Just because its selfish doesn't make it bad ... nor does it make it necessarily easy .. just makes it selfish



RCdc -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 11:23:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StormsSlave
I'm curious as to how others view it.  My Lord is correct, that I do submit in a desire to please him specifically.  I was under the impression that this was the basis of "submission" and dominance.

So, in your opinion, how do you view submission?  If you submit, why do you submit?   What are your thoughts?


1 I view submission as a selfish act with a return basis.
2 Because I can, am allowed and desire to.
3 See above.[;)]
 
the.dark.



Sundowner -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 11:45:24 AM)

I think that for many it's the wish to submit that drives them - think of the ppl who go to a professional domme; there is no personal realtionship (certainly on the first visit) - it has to be the act of submission which drives them.




And I can't let this go:-

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness
...
IMO there is no such thing as a truly intentional altruistic act .. just doesn't exist .


I so disagree - depends on your view of altruism of course, but seems to me the word wouldn't exist unless there was a need to describe something. And an unintentional altruistic act?

This is not the thread to debate it, but I think (with some degree of confidence) that there definitely is such a thing as an intentional altruistic act.



DesFIP -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 12:11:52 PM)

That's a different style of preference, and one he should have identified as him needing prior to getting into a relationship with you. If he wanted someone who has a need to submit, and who will do so to whoever she identifies as the strongest dominant around then that's fine. As long as he recognizes that such a person will switch their allegiance if they find someone more dominant in their viewpoint.

What isn't fine is telling you that your personality is wrong. If he doesn't like people who are focused on their partners, then he should have told you that upfront. Basically he's just said that he didn't know what he wanted, which  makes him  be walking around with egg on his face, or else that he lied when he said he liked you just as you were. Neither way makes him look good.

You've been honest about who you are from the beginning. Me? If I was told this, I'd be rightfully pissed and strongly suggest that since he doesn't actually like me at my core, he gets out so I can find someone who does. And wish him good luck on his future successes with a pithy comment on how he should stop lying to himself and others just to get laid and his laundry done. But that's me.



mnottertail -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 12:18:48 PM)

quote:

so disagree - depends on your view of altruism of course, but seems to me the word wouldn't exist unless there was a need to describe something.


or the extreme rarity or total lack of something might give rise to an entry in the dictionary. otherwise you wouldn't need two words to explain self effacing most of the time.

and you wouldn't have any trouble finding toilet slavery at the grocery store.

Ron



kyraofMists -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 12:25:31 PM)

I have with "doing what I am told because I think it will please him"; what happens when  he gives me an order that in my mind I think will not please him?

I am his slave because I do his will, not because I am trying to please him.  Whether he is pleased or not by what he had me do is up to him.  There have been times when doing his will results in doing something that he is not pleased with.  It is his decision on what I do even if that means doing something that will not please him.

I do quite a few things out of the motivation to please him, but submitting to his will is not one of them.

Knight's Kyra



SayaNereida -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:25:44 PM)

quote:

So, in your opinion, how do you view submission? If you submit, why do you submit? What are your thoughts?


In general, I have a submissive personality but I choose to whom I submit.  There can only be one person in control of my life and it's decision; be it me or MY Dominant.

I submit to him because I love, trust, and respect him; I could/would not submit to him (or anyone ) if I didn't.

He did not seek nor request my submission, I offered it to him and in doing so believe that from that point on my goal/duty/whatever word works was to please him, lessen his 'burdens', and hopefully make his life a little easier and more enjoyable; in whatever manner he requested.

If I ever begin to question whether I want to or should submit to a request of his, then I believe I should no longer be HIS submissive.

In my mind, once submission is given, the power exchange ends; the power has already been offered and accepted.  The only other exchange of power is the withdrawl of the submission or domination, i.e. the ending of the relationship.

Saya



juliaoceania -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:39:59 PM)

quote:

If you submit, why do you submit? What are your thoughts?


I have come to the conclusion that I submit because I just do. I do not know why. I have thought about it, and considered my motivations, but it just comes down to that it is the way I am in my intimate relationships. I do it because it pleases him, I do it because I want to, and I do it because it feels right. I do not want to over think it



SayaNereida -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:44:33 PM)

quote:

Most don't submit, most 'let' someone do something to them. How this became a definition of submission is beyond me, but check out most submissive profiles and they are filled with things they will let/won't let, with details about the how much and how hard any 'let' can be inflicted on them.


I believe I understand listing 'wills' and 'won'ts' in a profile; presumably to attract a dominant to whom you are willing to submit.  However, I don't understand limits AFTER submitting. 

After all, why would one submit to another that one didn't  know and trust to keep your best interest (physical, mental or emotional) at heart?

Saya



StormsSlave -> RE: New Confusion... (2/25/2008 3:35:57 AM)

I am always so blown away when something I ask illicits such incredibly intelligent and well-thought answers.

All of this is great food for thought.  I submit  to My Lord because pleasing him pleases me.  I really haven't thought all that much about it, either, up until now, but in the bottom end of it, that's all I came up with.  It makes him smile, which makes me smile, which makes him smile more.

Thank you all for taking time out of your day not only to read this, but to think about it, then post something meaningful to you.



joy2u -> RE: New Confusion... (2/25/2008 6:49:58 AM)

Submission is simply the act of yielding or surrendering (oneself) to the will or authority of another.  In my opinion, that's the "basis" of submission and dominance.  As far as i see it, the "basis" for consensual D/s is that we can choose to be submissive to another and under what conditions.  Granted, some have stricter conditions than others have but, for the most part, when we decide to submit to someone or not, it's conditional. 
 
The reason why people choose to submit is as variable as the people doing the submitting. 
 
Anything that we, as free individuals, choose to do, of our own free will, is a matter of wanting something, whether it's wanting to please someone else or, wanting to have something for ourself or, wanting to feel a certain way inside, or because you have a certain itch that can only be scratched by submitting to another and you want to satisfy that itch, etc.  It's still a matter of choosing to submit to another and, usually, choosing who we decide to submit to, because it's our choice to do so, regardless of the reason why. 
 
That's the reason why i chose to remove any "slave" reference from my name.  Because there are millions (27 million by most estimates, including 9 million minors) in the world today who don't have the luxury that i have of choosing to submit to another and choosing who i submit to and choosing to continue to submit.  Insted, they are forced to do so.  And, even though, to my Master, i am His slave, it's my choice and my will to be His slave and it's my choice to remain with Him, as His slave, for as long as i want. 
 
There are many forms of slavery and consensual slavery is one form and that's fine, if that's what someone chooses but, for many millions, they have no choice and they have no voice and i think that's a shame. 
 
For more information about slavery of the forced kind:
 
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu6/2/fs14.htm
 
http://www.anti-slaverysociety.addr.com/toc.htm
 
joy
Owned servant of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: StormsSlave

I do submit in a desire to please him specifically.  I was under the impression that this was the basis of "submission" and dominance.

So, in your opinion, how do you view submission?  If you submit, why do you submit?   What are your thoughts?



SubbieOnWheels -> RE: New Confusion... (2/25/2008 7:39:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StormsSlave
In a parallel thread there are a couple of discussions focused on subs struggling with their submission.  I asked My Lord if I struggled with mine, and was rather surprised that his answer was yes.  When I questioned how, his response was,
"You don't submit because it's what I want, but because you want to please me."

Just a side note here - why did you ask him this question? Aren't you the only one who knows what's going on inside your head? And isn't that where the struggle would be taking place?
quote:


When I told him I don't understand, his reply, after much thought, was that in his mind, submission is doing what you're told because you were told, not because in your own mind it pleases the master.  I responded that to me this sounds like the "biblical" definition of submission.

Actually, to my mind it sounds more like a "conqueror" and "Prize" than Master and slave. It would appear that he doesn't want a happy slave?

Not going to go into the "biblical" part of that, because it's a different discussion.



StormsSlave -> RE: New Confusion... (2/25/2008 2:44:08 PM)

I was speaking relationship-ese, I think.  My apologies.  There was a broader discussion of submission...I just tried to seperate the core of it.  I meant, how did My Lord see the difference?  I am always interested in My Lord's thoughts and/or opinions.  I will always consider them, as he does mine. If you read above, you'll see I've already voiced my thoughts.   The give and take.

Thanks for the input.

edited: acknowledging My Lord



kyraofMists -> RE: New Confusion... (2/25/2008 4:53:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubbieOnWheels

Just a side note here - why did you ask him this question? Aren't you the only one who knows what's going on inside your head? And isn't that where the struggle would be taking place?


Not to answer for StormsSlave, but for my own relationship.  Often people who are close to us can offer a different perspective on our behaviors that we cannot see.  In my relationship, he is highly perceptive and is very quick to cut through the bullshit and get to the heart of an issue.  I find this invaluable to me and will often ask his perception on something I am struggling with.  Considering how well he knows me, no, I am not the only one who knows what is going on inside my head.  My behavior and mannerisms communicates quite a bit to him and his advice and opinion is highly desired.  I find it extremely rare that something someone struggles with internally is not communicated in some manner externally.  All it takes is knowledge of the person and observation skills.

Knight's Kyra



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