An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps

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angelikaJ -> An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/27/2008 4:03:02 PM)
1) We affirm we have the power to take charge of our lives and stop being dependent on substances or other people for our self-esteem and security. 2) We come to believe that God/Goddess/Universe/Great Spirit/Higher Power awakens the healing wisdom within us when we open ourselves to the power. 3) We make a decision to become our authentic selves and trust in the healing power of the truth. http://www.charlottekasl.com/16steps.html http://www.charlottekasl.com/programs.html I have belonged to 12 step groups in the past...but for me this sort of fills in the gaps. (I have never actually been to a 16 Step Meeting; I am posting the information in case anyone is interested.) edit for typo in title and to add: for a variety of reasons I have seen references to 12 Step programs here on CM...I am adding this for anyone who might be interested in an alternative.

Zensee -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/27/2008 5:02:22 PM)
I think that "12 step programs" are a case of the ends not justifying the means. They divorce the addict from their own experience by giving too much power to the substance (and creating an, irrational morbid fear of it - which is controlling in a different way) and by ultimately giving credit and responsibility for the recovery to god (in whatever form one chooses - I guess this makes agnostics only partially recoverable and atheists incurable). While many lives have been rescued through use of these programs I believe their results are achieved by means other than those expressed in the 12 steps and that most of the steps are misleading and many are unnecessary. Adding four more makes no difference to me as long as the fallacious premises remain. How about: 1. I acknowledge that I have allowed a substance or behaviour to have undue and unhealthy control over my life and health. 2. I acknowledge that my addiction affects not only my own health and well being but the lives of all whom I love and whom love me and all those who rely on me and the things that I do. 3. I acknowledge that my environment, attitudes, personal associates, genetics, education, upbringing, beliefs, personal history, illnesses and other factors may have significant effects on the power and depth of my dependency but that ultimately the responsibility to regain control rests with me. 4. I acknowledge that my recovery requires me to be mindful of the factors previously mentioned and that I will take steps to modify or eliminate the influence those factors have, so they will not impede my recovery or encourage me to return to my destructive behaviours. 5. I acknowledge that while responsibility for my addiction rests solely with myself, it is necessary and acceptable to seek whatever help or support I need to overcome the many obstacles I face. 6. I acknowledge that I must be open and honest with myself and others, about my situation and the course of my recovery, including a need to celebrate new achievements and not just lament past failures. 7. I will not allow a morbid fear of addiction or participation in the recovery process to become dependencies in themselves. If you need one, god (-s, -esses, higherpowers etc.) would fall under #5. Z.

GreedyTop -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/27/2008 5:05:44 PM)
oooh... zensee... I LIKE that!!

angelikaJ -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/27/2008 5:07:47 PM)
She didn't just add 4 more... and what I like about them is that the premise of why she wrote them in the first place was to address issues such as #3 and 6 that you posted.

Zensee -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/27/2008 5:12:33 PM)
angelicaJ - while the 16 are an improvement over the traditional 12 steps they still make the addict "powerless" to change without divine help. With respect, I for one could not adopt a program which required that of me. Z

angelikaJ -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/27/2008 5:50:31 PM)
I understand that POV...it is my observation that for some people who have struggled to do it on their own and could not...that with a "higher power" was the only way that worked for them. I would never assume that to be the case with anyone.

chellekitty -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/27/2008 10:28:00 PM)
Zensee, i would never knock what works for you, please don't knock what works for so many (including me)...while i cannot speak for what goes on in meetings i don't go to, the ones i do never give power to the substance..."the use of drugs was merely a symptom of our addiction"...and the fear i have of using again, while morbid, is not irrational...if i were to use again, i am almost positive i would not live through it, probably because i would not want to...i like my life today, without the use of any mood or mind altering substances...and i owe it to my higher power...and i am not sorry if that offends you, because i am not telling you that is how you should do recovery...i am just saying that is how i am doing it...what ever works for you, works for you... as for the 16 step program...it sounds like a bunch of candy coated bullshit written by someone who has never dealt with an addict in real life...cause every single addict i know, and i know a quite a few would look at that and go "what is this psychobablebullshit?" the steps were re-written in such a way that i can't even express how much they offend me...maybe when i have some time to think about it... chelle

Zensee -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/28/2008 12:24:37 AM)
chellekitty - The steps I offered include appeal to a higher power under point 5 but they do not require such intervention as a prerequisite for participation. I'm not offended by people seeking strength, guidance and comfort from a higher power but I prefer language that also embraces people who don't hold such beliefs. That's not knocking anyone, it's including everyone. Candy coated bullshit, on the other hand, is a knock. As you observed, if it works for those who use it, it works. As for the "morbid fear" of the source of one's addiction - that's an all-purpose observation (you are correct that's it's not irrational and I'd withdraw that description). I am not addressing any particular substance but the behaviours that might arise from substance abuse or dysfunctional relationships or obsessive habits in general. Controlling our obsessions with fear, rather than awareness, is counter productive and living life as a permanent, incurable victim, with a life-long 7, 12 or 16 step habit, is trading one addiction for another (albeit healthier) one. Z.

luckydog1 -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/28/2008 1:29:42 AM)
Very interesting Zensee, I like your list very much. I had a bad experience with a 12 step group. We had a Mantra that I don't remebr exactly but it was like something like, "to relapse is to die" and they kept talking about the Magic of NA. That is what I realised the Magic was, internalising that if you relapse you will die. It function as a spell (psychosomatic or not), and it does work. And for some people it is probably better than the alternative. After I realised this I started looking at the whole thing differently, and it got worse. The guy running it, though technically there is no leader-- he was, was agressivly hitting on several of the girls in the group and left my GF a message calling her a sexy bitch. I called him on it, and he actually said it was part of the process. HE was trying to get another chick to leave her husband. He was an ex Coke dealer, and every Coke dealer I have dealt with was addicted to the power having the supply gives over others. And the people in this group needed it, and he controlled it. Courts sentanced people to this. Its fucked up.

mhawk -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/28/2008 7:01:39 AM)
higer powers or lack there in of higher powers,as an addicit who has been in the programs,i found just acknowleding that i had a problem and i had the choice to fix that in myself is what worked and still works to this day. if you have a hp or don't have a hp it's what works for the individual. if it comes down to my past really bothering me i talk about about to those i am closest too and if i need to i will find a meeting. i just push through every day and that is what works for me.every persons recovery is different. i look into myself and know deep down i have the strength that it takes for me to get through.

angelikaJ -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/28/2008 7:49:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chellekitty Zensee, i would never knock what works for you, please don't knock what works for so many (including me)...while i cannot speak for what goes on in meetings i don't go to, the ones i do never give power to the substance..."the use of drugs was merely a symptom of our addiction"...and the fear i have of using again, while morbid, is not irrational...if i were to use again, i am almost positive i would not live through it, probably because i would not want to...i like my life today, without the use of any mood or mind altering substances...and i owe it to my higher power...and i am not sorry if that offends you, because i am not telling you that is how you should do recovery...i am just saying that is how i am doing it...what ever works for you, works for you... as for the 16 step program...it sounds like a bunch of candy coated bullshit written by someone who has never dealt with an addict in real life...cause every single addict i know, and i know a quite a few would look at that and go "what is this psychobablebullshit?" the steps were re-written in such a way that i can't even express how much they offend me...maybe when i have some time to think about it... chelle just to clarify: (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagans_In_Recovery ) "In 1992, Dr Charlotte Kasl, an addiction counselor and author, and past member of Alcoholics Anonymous published a book titled Many Roads, One Journey: Moving Beyond the 12 Steps, a work which has greatly influenced the Pagan Recovery Movement. [6] In her book, Dr. Kasl notes that Bill W., Dr. Bob and the other men who helped them put together the AA program and the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous all came from similar backgrounds, they were all privileged, white males who wrote the bulk of these influential works in the middle of the 20th century. Kasl argues, the focus of the traditional recovery movement is rooted in a white, middle class, heterosexual mindset, steeped in the teachings of Abrahamic religions [7] and greatly influenced by the conservative U.S. culture of the 1950's. She claims that the well meaning but patriarchal attitudes inherent within the program, coupled with Judeo/Christian teachings which focus strongly (some say exclusively) on guilt and shame are deeply problematic for many who attempt to find a place at 12 Step meetings. She also points out that the program is held to be perfect, Kasl viewpoint is the AA program is simply a guideline. ..." I mentioned this for one reason...I have been reading words to the effect of "I tried it (a 12 step program) and it wasn't for me." chellekitty, My personal feeling has always been "whatever helps you make it through the day." I am not advocating people to abandon what works for them...nor am I trying to muddy the waters for anyone struggling with recovery issues. Iam sorry that you were personally offended.

chellekitty -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/28/2008 9:08:31 PM)
i will be the first to admit i am not perfect...and i was a bit pissed off at the projection of guilt and shame in the 16 steps through step 7...and it has been one of the hardest things to put down that bat and let go of the guilt and shame, and if i had to hear at every meeting that i could not let go of the guilt and shame until i had worked step 7...well...i would not find much hope in that...we all recover at our own pace, and recovery in a (insert number) step program comes from working the steps...but in reality, it is a process of becoming more spiritual, not religious - spiritual...and addicts (no matter what they are addicted to - drugs, food, people, drama, etc) are complicated people who have to make things more complicated than they are, and i, personally find the 12 steps to be the simplest thing to understand...but yes...whatever works for each person...oh yea, all that was a very long drawn out appology for being snappy and judgemental just a side note...there is a new story that will probably be in the 6th edition of the NA basic text (i have a copy of the to be approved version) called "Atheists Do Recover"....or something like that...it is like a foot out of my reach...and i am being lazy... chelle

Hippiekinkster -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/29/2008 5:30:56 AM)
My name is Bill W., and I am an Acidhead. "One of his therapeutic journeys lead him to Trabuco College in California, and the friendship of the college’s founder, Aldous Huxley. The author of Brave New World and The Doors of Perception introduced Wilson to LSD-25. The drug rocked Wilson’s world. He thought of it as something of a miracle substance and continued taking it well into the ‘60s. As he approached his 70th birthday, he developed a plan to have LSD distributed at all AA meetings nationwide. The plan was eventually quashed by more rational voices, and a few years later the Federal government made the point moot by making the drug illegal. (That Wilson’s plan was shot down is probably fortunate. LSD is a beautiful thing, but nothing sounds more horrifying to me than a roomful of chain-smoking, frightened, needy drunks tripping their heads off in the basement of the local Y.) http://www.moderndrunkardmagazine.com/issues/01-05/0105-dry-piper.htm 12-step groups are cults! http://www.orange-papers.org/menu1.html

Phoenix2raven -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/29/2008 7:12:07 AM)
Just two questions for those that feel that the 12 step modality isn't for them. 1. Have you ever wanted to stop using but couldn't 2. Have you ever tried to control the amount of substance you use and repeatedly fail. i.e. I'll only use ____ amount tonight next day etc and end up using more or all of it. The reason I ask this is I'm currently doing research. Please answer and be brutally honest . Thanks in advance and sorry to the op for the hijack.

Zensee -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/29/2008 2:34:45 PM)
Fascinating links, HK. A detail within the second one, worthy of perusal, http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Vaillant Valliant is one of the leaders of the AA movement yet his own research shows that AA is no more effective than no treatment at all. Check out the charts a page or so down (especially the death statistics). Lucky - I hope you were able to hound (no pun intended) that asshole out of his position. Creeps who use places of authority to sexually abuse vulnerable people are amongst the worst sorts of sex criminals. It is so wrong on so many levels. *** Another general observation - the AA 12 steps is referred to as a "program", which I’d suggest it is not. It is a limited and rather vague checklist of suggestions, many repetitive or redundant. It has no structure or process. AA, seems to leave too much to the whims of local operators and members when it comes to specifics of treatment. But this hasn’t stopped A.A. and associated groups from being touted as the gold standard for addiction treatment – a standard they fail to meet, according to Dr. Valliant’s own studies. It does not appear to work any better than no treatment at all and, in some cases, is the least effective compared to no treatment or to treatment at a dedicated clinic. Courts, probation officers, therapists, doctors, friends, pastors, advice columnists, routinely direct addicts to A.A. and its kin, assuming they are effective. That’s a disturbing habit, considering. In its introductory pages, A.A. has a questionnaire entitled Is A.A. For You?** Actually the questions identify if you might have a drinking problem, not the suitability of A.A. for your situation. This sort of misdirection and a penchant for self promotion and recruiting (See step 12 of the program), smack more of proof by numbers (of members) than any objective measure of effectiveness. It “works” because lots of people agree to agree that it does and repeat that to each other in a cycle of proof by affirmation and agreement. Z.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/29/2008 4:32:12 PM)
Excellent post, Zensee. And TY. I've read most of the Orange Papers, but some time ago. IIRC, the spontaneous "cure" rate without any intervention is 5% per annum. The "cure" rate in AA is 5% per annum. Wow, what a success.

popeye1250 -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/29/2008 5:14:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee Fascinating links, HK. A detail within the second one, worthy of perusal, http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Vaillant Valliant is one of the leaders of the AA movement yet his own research shows that AA is no more effective than no treatment at all. Check out the charts a page or so down (especially the death statistics). Lucky - I hope you were able to hound (no pun intended) that asshole out of his position. Creeps who use places of authority to sexually abuse vulnerable people are amongst the worst sorts of sex criminals. It is so wrong on so many levels. *** Another general observation - the AA 12 steps is referred to as a "program", which I’d suggest it is not. It is a limited and rather vague checklist of suggestions, many repetitive or redundant. It has no structure or process. AA, seems to leave too much to the whims of local operators and members when it comes to specifics of treatment. But this hasn’t stopped A.A. and associated groups from being touted as the gold standard for addiction treatment – a standard they fail to meet, according to Dr. Valliant’s own studies. It does not appear to work any better than no treatment at all and, in some cases, is the least effective compared to no treatment or to treatment at a dedicated clinic. Courts, probation officers, therapists, doctors, friends, pastors, advice columnists, routinely direct addicts to A.A. and its kin, assuming they are effective. That’s a disturbing habit, considering. In its introductory pages, A.A. has a questionnaire entitled Is A.A. For You?** Actually the questions identify if you might have a drinking problem, not the suitability of A.A. for your situation. This sort of misdirection and a penchant for self promotion and recruiting (See step 12 of the program), smack more of proof by numbers (of members) than any objective measure of effectiveness. It “works” because lots of people agree to agree that it does and repeat that to each other in a cycle of proof by affirmation and agreement. Z. Good post Zensee and very accurate I think. I was in and out of AA for years staying sober for maybe 3 to 4 months at a time. I think it's good in the beginning for someone who maybe needs a little help getting off the sauce but some people go way overboard going to 2 to 3 "meetings" every day! I've been sober for more than two years now and I attribute it to daily prayer and I'm not a religious person. I never liked a lot of those "steps" either, especially about "making amends" anyone I fucked over had it comming in spades and if I could find some of them now I'd probably wack them. Real no good bastards. I was one of the lucky ones, or, skillfull. I never lost my liscense because I was pretty responsable and I could also afford cab fare, or because I didn't mind walking or because I'd just drink at home. Anyone who loses their liscense these days for drinking is just plain stupid. A $100 cab ride is FAR cheaper than a DUI.

Arpig -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/29/2008 9:20:12 PM)
quote: IIRC, the spontaneous "cure" rate without any intervention is 5% per annum. The "cure" rate in AA is 5% per annum. Wow, what a success. You don't suppose the 5% AA helped were people who would not have been "cured" spontaneously do you?

Hippiekinkster -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/29/2008 9:25:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: IIRC, the spontaneous "cure" rate without any intervention is 5% per annum. The "cure" rate in AA is 5% per annum. Wow, what a success. You don't suppose the 5% AA helped were people who would not have been "cured" spontaneously do you? First of all, 5% is 5%. Secondly, what reason would I have to suppose such?

juliaoceania -> RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps (2/29/2008 11:10:31 PM)
I do not believe in 12 step programs, and not to get too personal here, but at one time in my life I would have been deemed in need of one. I think some parts of the 12 steps are wonderful, but the first couple of steps I have a great deal of trouble with on a spiritual level... I am not powerless over anything, and the only thing in this world I have true control over is what I do. On one level I think that many illnesses can be cured from a spiritual perspective, but addiction has biochemical roots also, meaning that I think that 12 step programs are not a very scientific approach to dealing with what is thought of as a "disease". We do not treat other diseases with 12 step programs.. why do we treat addictions with them.. in some cases court mandating people do the 12 steps. 12 step programs work for some people, I am sure. I see programs like AA, for example, as a religion rather than "treatment". They are not very effective for the majority of people that have used them. My issue with these programs also stems from more than a few people who self labelled as alcoholics that quit for a few years and now can have one or two drinks in a social situation and no more than that. One of these people lost her marriage, children, and nearly her life in a drinking related accident... she was even a substance abuse therapist for several years before questioning the 12 steps and their effectiveness herself. I think there is so little known about addiction, and whatever helps someone kick one is all good in my book, but I just thought I would point out that they are not the only way, or even the best way, for many many people (including me).

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