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RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/5/2008 2:59:33 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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Well done you, it is a shuttle service right like all maglev experiments? Not exactly extensive is it and how long as maglev been around for, since the 70s? You'd probably buy shares in a company that makes paper umbrellas, good luck to you sir.

I'll go up against anyone regardless of how idiotic their beliefs, are you the thought mafia?

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RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/5/2008 3:35:25 PM

Hippiekinkster

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From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Well done you, it is a shuttle service right like all maglev experiments? Not exactly extensive is it and how long as maglev been around for, since the 70s? You'd probably buy shares in a company that makes paper umbrellas, good luck to you sir.

I'll go up against anyone regardless of how idiotic their beliefs, are you the thought mafia?

See, if you actually knew anything, you'd know that mag-lev technology is based on a 1934 patent. Just this once I'll help you out, sparkplug.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transrapid

Your ad hominems aren't very good. Keep trying, though.

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)

Post #: 22

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/5/2008 8:38:13 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol.

Give me a nice big fat train that shoots through tunnels anyday (cue: Hitchcock).

kittenSol:
I just love it when ya talks dirty to me like that.
thompson

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 23

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/5/2008 8:49:39 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Funny how people moan about magnetic fields from buried cables giving children leukaemia but they are happy to travel on a train with powerful magnetic fields emanating from under them. Maglev will never work for the simple fact too much energy is wasted making an entire length of track a magnetic field. Why do people think it more efficient? The heat generated in an electric motor from errm coiled wire in one small location or errm loads of coiled wire along an entire length of track? The cows will thank you for the first outdoor heating network you provide them. Sure no energy is wasted on frictional resistance but does that really balance the fact you’ve turned an entire length of track into a George Forman Grilling Machine?

Why do you assume that the entire length of track is "lit up" instead of the area directly under and immediately in front of and behind the train?
Where is your evidence that buried or suspended cables that generate magnetic fields causes leukemia?
thompson

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)

Post #: 24

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/5/2008 8:50:31 PM

DominorSomnium

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I like trains.
and there was a good AP article a few weeks ago how the big rail companies are actually growing again because of import business, they can move huge amounts of goods in one load rather than a lot of trucks taking tons of time. hell I have seen some monster trains roll through here lately, all kinds of freight, cars, box cars, etc. so rail isnt dead. and I have seen somewhere that monorails can generate their own juice once they get going. dont remeber where though

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RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/5/2008 9:11:31 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Why would anyone build a special High Speed express train from Marieta GA to Chicago? If it stops in all the towns between the 2 places, it would never get up to 300MPH, and would take a couple of days. If it only made 2 stops in Memphis & ST Louis, it would be pretty fast, but then most people in its service area, would have to travel for several hours, just to get to the train, and total travel time would not be any faster. It sounds like a liberal dream, Having a Mag lev train from your front door to wherever you like to go. But not really very realistic. There aboslutly should be a high speed train that connects the cities up the West Coast, and the NE corridor. Other than that, Air travell or car makes more sense.

luckydog:
Consider that the train itself never stops but instead each station were to launch a car or cars with outbound passengers in front of the train while disembarking passengers were dropped of in a car or cars detached from the rear of the train.
With modern high speed switching circuitry and magnetic coupling it seems a feasible solution.
There is no need to couch this discussion in terms of liberal/conservative but rather in terms of technology and feasibility.
thompson

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 26

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/5/2008 9:12:57 PM

Hippiekinkster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominorSomnium

I like trains.
and there was a good AP article a few weeks ago how the big rail companies are actually growing again because of import business, they can move huge amounts of goods in one load rather than a lot of trucks taking tons of time. hell I have seen some monster trains roll through here lately, all kinds of freight, cars, box cars, etc. so rail isnt dead. and I have seen somewhere that monorails can generate their own juice once they get going. dont remeber where though

Generate own power? Look on the link I gave.

I dig trains, too. Really haven't ridden any in N. America, unless the Tijuana Trolley in San Diego counts. I really dig subways. Don't know why. I've ridden the subways in Vancouver, Montreal, Chicago, Mexico City, Atlanta (where I live and which has a fine system, MARTA), DC, London (love the Tube), Liverpool, Paris, Frankfurt, Berlin (really love it), Munich (really love it), and Vienna. Lots more to go. I want to do the Moscow system. I really want to do the Monorail in Wuppertal, Germany. Now THAT'S cool.

(in reply to DominorSomnium)

Post #: 27

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/5/2008 11:02:33 PM

luckydog1

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Sure I suppose that would be feasable Thompson. Being launched at 300 MPh seems rather extreme, and more likley the individual cars would have to have thier own drive systems, and several miles of speed up and slow down. Just seems rather pointless to me. Fly to go fast or drive to go slow and enjoy the trip. The idea of an airport 75 miles away from a city center of millions and millions of people like Shanghai makes total sense, with a rocket train. I don't see a need to build them to be cool, only where they make sense.

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Post #: 28

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/5/2008 11:12:04 PM

luckydog1

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I have a general question about Mag lev technology, perhaps someone with more of a science background than I can tell me if it is feasable or technically impossible.

Is there a practical speed limit to a maglev system?

I had a crazy idea once. There was a company that made a proposal to build a giant 2 stage cannon that would be capable of shooting cargo into space. They wanted to put it on Kodiak Island, and it was of course greeted with a resounding fuck no!! But on paper they could do it.

Could you build a mag lev system that would accelerate cargo containers to a high enough speed, then hit a 'kicker' and toss them into orbit? If you could throw a container about 3-4 times the size of a boxcar full of water, into orbit, I thought out an entire Moon/Mars/Space station construction system, that would be very easy. Sort of the way they built the Prudhoe Bay oil fields. They hauled all the equipment up there in giant ATCO trailers, then assembled the trailers (which were predesigned for it) into buildings to live and work in.

Or is there a reason it would not work?

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Post #: 29

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/6/2008 1:15:51 AM

Politesub53

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Hippie...... Wouldnt this be something !

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-04/trans-atlantic-maglev

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Post #: 30

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/6/2008 2:04:06 AM

Zensee

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Not only would that be super cool, Ps53, but... well let's just say, I feel a scifi disaster thriller screenplay comin' on!

Z.

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Post #: 31

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/6/2008 2:14:08 AM

Politesub53

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Zensee your about 100 years too late..... There have been several French and English films made, back when the Channel tunnel was first mooted. Its hard to imagine that the prototype for the first monorail is almost 200 yeard old and that Wuppertal itself is over 100 years old.

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Post #: 32

RE: Mag Lev is just so cool... - 3/6/2008 9:13:59 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Sure I suppose that would be feasable Thompson. Being launched at 300 MPh seems rather extreme, and more likley the individual cars would have to have thier own drive systems, and several miles of speed up and slow down. Just seems rather pointless to me. Fly to go fast or drive to go slow and enjoy the trip. The idea of an airport 75 miles away from a city center of millions and millions of people like Shanghai makes total sense, with a rocket train. I don't see a need to build them to be cool, only where they make sense.

luckydog:
I quite agree that the only reason to build one would be where they made sense...leave the "gee that would be kewel" stuff for Disneyland.
The nature of the Mag Lev is that each car would be its own aspect of the engine. Propulsion is by keeping the +,- relationship advancing the car. Accelerating and decelerating the cars would be no more of a "jolt" than it is in an aircraft. Yes I would imagine that several miles of acceleration and deceleration would be necessary as it is in an aircraft. The amount of energy used to do so would be less by several orders of magnitude.
I am not sure why 300mph is touted as the upper limit of speed for these trains since jet passenger aircraft move in the same medium at 400 to 500 mph. If there were some negative consideration of those higher speeds closer to the ground perhaps a tube that enclosed the track that could have the ability to decrease the air pressure...not unlike the tubes they use in banks to take transactions from drive up teller sites to the main building.
This would work for freight as well as passenger traffic. Seems to me the reduction in cost of fuel and shorter delivery times would be enormous.
The infrastructure is already in place...everyplace there is a rail line it could be used simply by modification and not by creating whole new pathways.
thompson

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 33

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/6/2008 10:33:32 AM

Ahasver

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Joined: 2/17/2008
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I've done the Eurostar more times than I remember; I used to travel by train all the time. Until...

Why aren't there more trains in America? It's the perfect country for it. Tons of space for railtracks, and I'm sure the infrastructure's all there. Why ?

Trains like the Eurostar, TGV or ICE need a special track and track bed for such high speeds. Even in Germany - a small country compared to the USA - we have only a few railways with these special features, they are terrible expensive.

Btw, the TGV broke the speed record for trains last year, very impressive to watch: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir_n3J5ABA

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 34

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/6/2008 11:17:49 AM

kittinSol

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They may be expensive, but the return's high. Like I said, it's a question of political will; if the policy makers reject railroads, there ain't gonna be none to be had.

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Post #: 35

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/6/2008 11:30:33 AM

meatcleaver

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Though the Maglev is expensive, I have read it is no more expensive than the creation of the first railways systems in Britain which were a huge undertaking at the time, something of the equivalent of sending a man to the moon. It is a question of will and vision. It seems that the west has lost its vision and China has the vision. China hopes to build a network of Maglevs which will replace internal flights and in the end prove more efficient at moving people and more efficient in energy. One can see why the east is on the rise and the west is on the wane. We in the west don't have visions anymore, we have accountants and politicians with water for blood.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/6/2008 11:31:11 AM >

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RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/6/2008 1:37:40 PM

Hippiekinkster

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From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hippie...... Wouldnt this be something !

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-04/trans-atlantic-maglev

4000 mph. That's zippin'. I wonder how they plan to maintain the vacuum?

That would be great for the planned tunnel under the Bering Sea between Siberia and Alaska.

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Post #: 37

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/6/2008 2:15:00 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hippie...... Wouldnt this be something !

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-04/trans-atlantic-maglev

4000 mph. That's zippin'. I wonder how they plan to maintain the vacuum?

That would be great for the planned tunnel under the Bering Sea between Siberia and Alaska.

Hippiekinkster:
At a depth of ten atmospheres we are talking about one hundred and fifty psi for free as a function of depth...it does not seem to me that that pressure would be too difficult to harness to evacuate the tube. It would not be necessary to make it a complete vacuum just enough to keep the skin on the train at 4k mph from getting too hot.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 3/6/2008 2:18:25 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/7/2008 11:15:53 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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From: S.E. London U.K.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
Funny how people moan about magnetic fields from buried cables giving children leukaemia

Where is your evidence that buried or suspended cables that generate magnetic fields causes leukemia?
thompson

I didn't state it is a proven fact only that people moan about such things.

quote:

Why do you assume that the entire length of track is "lit up" instead of the area directly under and immediately in front of and behind the train?

The section of track lit up would have to be well in excess of the train length when you take into account the speed the train is running at, an acceptable safety margin and the need to split the track into logical sections that can realistically be managed by a computer system.

All I want to know is why people think it matters if the train has wheels on or not. Surely the art of transport planning is knowing what places you need to connect based on demand. People can buy gimmicks if they like but I'd prefer tried and tested methods because whilst I can see the advantage of wheels over levitation I can't see the advantage of levitation over wheels.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 3/7/2008 12:09:06 PM >

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Post #: 39

RE: MagLev is just so cool... - 3/7/2008 11:24:39 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hippie...... Wouldnt this be something !

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-04/trans-atlantic-maglev

4000 mph. That's zippin'. I wonder how they plan to maintain the vacuum?

That would be great for the planned tunnel under the Bering Sea between Siberia and Alaska.

Hippiekinkster:
At a depth of ten atmospheres we are talking about one hundred and fifty psi for free as a function of depth...it does not seem to me that that pressure would be too difficult to harness to evacuate the tube. It would not be necessary to make it a complete vacuum just enough to keep the skin on the train at 4k mph from getting too hot.
thompson

That's not the problem. The problem is, the power required to overcome drag is the cube of velocity ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics ) (1st derivative of speed)
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative)
At ~~6400kph, that's one hell of a lot of drag to overcome. Then you have the shear stress (friction, basically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shear_stress ) between the carriage and the guideway. Then you have the force directly acting on the front of the train.

You wouldn't have 10 atm (more like 11.5 @150 ft., if 1 atm/13 ft. is correct)(hell if I know, I use ISO units. Inches, feet, Fahrenheit, all that is so primitive)

(I use pascals or Torr for pressure) inside the tube, just outside. Inside, unevacuated, would be approx. 1 atm (760 Torr). Think about why this is true.

If you figure the water temp at depth is about 0C, an unevacuted, unheated tube would also be 0C. This is of minor relevance, but that small differential does add some heat transfer.
Here's a NASA paper on skin temp at high velocities:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930088771_1993088771.pdf
which show max temps at high Mach numbers.
Then it's a matter of materials science; titanium would be more that adequate to build the fuselage of the carriages from.

So you can see, the basic problem is drag. Ask our little English transportation engineer.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 40

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