RE: University Students: Test Question (Full Version)

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celticlord2112 -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 2:11:10 PM)

quote:

Does that scenario sound familiar and fair to you?

Yep and Yep.

quote:

What might you do going forward? Presume that getting high marks is extremely important to you.
Dust off those textbooks and engage in that ancient academic ritual called studying.  Yeah, it's so "old school"--but it still works.




CuriousLord -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 2:53:39 PM)

Man, if I didn't know any better, I'd say you just described my Analytical Chemistry class.  (Except we only have 50 minutes to complete tests, no starting early or finishing late.)  The description nailed everything from the professor (except for the substitutes part), to the exam (including the length and question types) and even the apparent subject matter.

So, to this end.. are you talking about an Analytical Chemistry class?  (My second guess is General Chemistry II, and my third's Inorganic Chem I.)  [Edit:  Actually, I reread the part that said "required some math or conversions".  I'm changing my guess to General Chem I or II.  :P  Also, those friends you mentioned can take comfort in the that they'll get used to it very quickly.  And, finally, they should really practice up on their math; it's the one of the best things they can do when entering a technical field.]

Also, to answer your question, yes.. this is considered both normal and fair.  Actually, he's giving them far more time on that test than my professors would allow me, so I think the professor's being nice (or sloppy; professors often give students unfair advantages so they don't protest the professor's obvious deficiencies).

And, finally, I agree with others.  Showing up to classes is sort of a formality.. most of the learning is by yourself, so the professor's skill at teaching is often a pretty moot point (unless he's particularly good at it).

I'm generally content with a professor who
  • Is clear about what assignments are
  • Provides assignments relevant to what's going to be on exams (typically easier work is both given and desired)
  • Grades well.

"Grades well" is a big factor.  If I fail a test, which I do occasionally, I can typically get it up to a B.  By pointing out many mistakes the professor makes in grading it.  Some classes, the professor does such a half-assed job that they don't consider when a problem is answered accurately.

Seriously, I'm going to try to avoid ranting here, but to do science and engineering, a lot of assumptions need to be made.  If you make less assumptions than the professor (and thus get different, even if more justified answers), he'll often think you messed up and dock you for it.

Examples of what I maen would be using the quadratic method on finding pH's in Chemistry even if the linear model is close enough (relevant to the class you brought up) and implimenting relativistic calculations on velocities above 10^5 m/s (which is typically more anal than a Physics professor requires).  Oh, and when working with constants, if you drag them out a long ways.  OH- and the big one- using significant figures!  So many professors don't require them, then get confused when you use them, and many more want you to use them, but overlook the reduced significance due to one value with an unusually low significance.

Man I rant when I'm tired.




Muttling -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 3:19:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I know several people at university right now. Most are in the middle of midterms exams, or just wrapping up. So here is my scenario:

-----

A chemistry midterm exam is given. The exam is 37 questions and 6 pages long. Each question has multiple parts and some are even essay style, short answer questions. There are some multiple choice questions, but almost all questions require at least some math and conversions. The math and conversions on the exam are often more difficult and seem to synthesize knowledge imparted during the lecture period leading to the exam - but the practice work during lectures and homework is never as hard as what is on the exam. The official time for the midterm is a single 50 minute class session, but the teacher allows students to arrive 30 minutes earlier and to stay 30 minutes later if they need to.

The chemistry class normally meets for three 50 minute sessions per week. The class is taught and the exam is given by a graduate student. This graduate student is known to take time away from class with substitute teachers filling in as he is also undergoing various evaluation processes toward a higher degree.

-----

It's been some time since I have been in school. Does that scenario sound familiar and fair to you? What might you do going forward? Presume that getting high marks is extremely important to you.




Sounds quite normal to me.   Especially for a freshman chemistry course.   I've got a bachelors, a masters, and will be graduating with a second masters in December.

They don't mind failing people in college and expect you to work your butt if you want to earn a high grade.





EDIT: One big positive aspect of college is that most of the professors and TA's are more than happy to give you personal tutoring if you ask to meet them outside of class.  In many freshman level undergraduate classes, they will establish times for students to come to meet them.   The ones who schedule such times are even MORE likely to fail people because they tend to take the attitude of "I was there every week and you didn't come for help." 




subtee -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 3:21:50 PM)

~FR

My statistics final took 6 hours...

I can't believe I lived




Hippiekinkster -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 3:22:51 PM)

The math in basic chemistry is fairly simple; dimensional analysis handles most problems. Equilibrium constants & radioactive decay require using base 10 logs; reaction rates (kinetics) calculations use derivatives.  Later on (P-chem, thermo, quantum) one needs diff-eqs and linear algebra, of course.

I've forgotten all that stuff. I can't even spell vector calculus or polyaromatic hydrocarbon anymore. [;)]




subtee -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 3:25:16 PM)

Nor should you. Or anyone. [;)]




Muttling -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 3:25:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

~FR

My statistics final took 6 hours...

I can't believe I lived


Engineer In Training exam - 8 hours
Professional Engineer's exam - 8 hours
Professional Geologist's exam - 8 hours
Teaching License exams (e.g. Praxis) - 5 different exams for a total of 9 hours


They still ferment alchohol for a reason.




subtee -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 3:28:55 PM)

~big hug~




CuriousLord -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 3:31:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Equilibrium constants & radioactive decay require using base 10 logs; reaction rates (kinetics) calculations use derivatives.  Later on (P-chem, thermo, quantum) one needs diff-eqs and linear algebra, of course.


Something about seeing people in general with knowledge on these sorts of things relaxes me.  I guess my inner geek is growing.




CuriousLord -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 3:33:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

Engineer In Training exam - 8 hours
Professional Engineer's exam - 8 hours
Professional Geologist's exam - 8 hours
Teaching License exams (e.g. Praxis) - 5 different exams for a total of 9 hours


And you're still alive to speak of it!  (Is there a clapping smiley?)




kittinSol -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 3:37:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I guess my inner geek is growing.



God forbid [sm=biggrin.gif] .




Hippiekinkster -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 3:40:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Nor should you. Or anyone. [;)]

Hahaha[8D] Part of simplifying one's life is simplifying one's thinking. "Never remember what you can look up." (Einstein, IIRC) Economy of thought, that's the key. It's good to stop well short of thinking like a republican, however. [:D] hug.




CuriousLord -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 3:53:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Part of simplifying one's life is simplifying one's thinking. "Never remember what you can look up." (Einstein, IIRC) Economy of thought, that's the key.


I wish you could go back in time and tell my thermo chem professor that.  The average on the final exam was a 50% because she expected everyone to memorize all the formulas and the majority of the constants!  (In what may be taken as spiteful irony, she did provide the ideal gas constant, typically noted as R.  (From PV=nRT)  A bit more spiteful, when you consider that not a single question on the final exam allowed for us to assume that a gas was ideal.)

My quantum chem teacher gives us a sheet with most of the equations we'll need on it.  Karana bless her!

Out of curousity, as you seem to have done a good bit of studying in Chem, did they ever teach you (or others you knew) to solve Schronginer's equation, or did they just keep doing this analyze-it-piece-by-piece bit? Chem's not my primary major, so I doubt I'll get far enough to find out.. I'm just curious, though, as the piece-by-piece bit drives me nuts.




ShaktiSama -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 4:00:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
It's been some time since I have been in school. Does that scenario sound familiar and fair to you? What might you do going forward? Presume that getting high marks is extremely important to you.



Getting high marks in chemistry is extremely important and indeed required for some majors.

No, the test and the teacher's behavior pattern are not correct.  Depending on the mathematics involved, 37 questions and six pages which are not conceptual or definition-oriented is too much to give to people with 50 minutes to take an exam.  The extra minutes before and after are irrelevant; many students will have other classes before and after his period, some of which may be giving other midterms.

I'm not impressed with the description of the teaching style either.




subtee -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 5:01:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

It's good to stop well short of thinking like a republican, however. [:D] hug.


Hard limit!!!

[emphasis added]




Hippiekinkster -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 6:26:04 PM)

R = 0.0821 liter atm/mole K
You should have that memorized. Should be instinctive, like dozen = 12.

Shrodinger's equation. 30 years ago. I seem to recall something about time-dependence and time-independence; the particle in a box, quantum numbers, eigenvalues, wave functions, spectral lines, and all that stuff. I'd have to review so much math to get anywhere close to solving it. Think I'll stick with memorizing German verbs.




DominorSomnium -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 7:54:05 PM)

first, I have never had a grad student teach any class. I will drop like a hot rock if I find out they are a grad student.
secondly, study study study. and then study some more
third, if you can't drop it, talk to either department chair with your concerns (most are cool as hell I have noticed) or the dean of the college (most of whom are also decent people and try hard to fix problems, or at least have in my case.)

I have taken constitutional law classes from two serious scholars, both basically law school prep senior level stuff, and I have never had issues because I read the readings more than once, ask plenty of questions in class, by email, phone, carrier pigeon and smoke signal. University is not that hard in my opinion, its just a bunch of hoops to jump through, some are bigger than others and some are on fire. The key for me when I am actually in classes (had some endless summers and some long snowboarding winters ;) ) is just to keep jumping and rolling ala Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Don't give up, fight for every A, go to class damn it. I am done rambling now.




SugarMyChurro -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/5/2008 8:20:55 PM)

Thanks for the many replies. I often post things that aren't about me, despite what some may think. And this wasn't about me.

I think the teaching seems scattered. It's clear that they don't have this guy's full attention as he pursues his own agenda. I also would drop and add a different class if I discovered a grad student was teaching the course - they tend to grade harder and often their expectations are unrealistic. I would be unhappy if too many classes were taught by a substitute teacher and there were no scheduling changes to correct that issue - how does the instructor know the material is being covered properly? The length of the exam suggests that it was structured for a different class with a different schedule - like a twice a week class at 90 mins a session. That kind of inflexible and lazy approach on the part of the teacher would send up red flags for me.

I think ShaktiSama's reply nailed it according to my own thinking. I thought DominorSomnium's reply was also helpful as was that of Archer.

I personally stress having a personal relationship with the instructor. I think they care and are often willing to change their normal trajectory when they know a diligent student with a good GPA is having issues with the course "as is." And, of course, nothing could be better than one on one instruction from the person doing the evaluation for the grade.

I also think study groups are great. One can learn much from the casual tutoring of others. Better still, if you can teach what you are supposed to know and will be evaluated on, they you have it down cold already. All good stuff, plus the society and camaraderie of others.




MollHackabout -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/6/2008 1:31:40 PM)

I cannot speak to this specific example, as I have not done uni work in maths or science. However, it has been my experience that grad students, typically, have unrelentingly high expectations of their students. This isn't an inherently bad thing. The problem emerges when these high standards are combined with inexperience, which leads to teaching methods that are often ineffective and simply cannot produce the results needed to expect such high levels of performance.

On a personal level, the way my peers talk about their students is offensive. Many take their role as TAs or sessionals to mean it is their personal responsibility to weed students out of programs, often in disproportionately high levels. I wonder if this is the case here.

For example, in the law course I am currently marking for, the two other TAs I am working with have given class averages of around 55%, well below university mandated averages (which, admittedly, have no bearing on reality....) Given my experiences with the class, this should be situated closer to 65-69%, or a high C. This seems indicative of the disdain many grad students have for undergrads.




DominorSomnium -> RE: University Students: Test Question (3/6/2008 1:43:52 PM)

I agree with Moll about grad students, most of them in general are arrogant self important jackasses. I have heard TA's in hallways call brilliant kids stupid and idiots because the morons have made the class impossible to pass. Yet another reason they should never teach, or get their Master or Doctorate.




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