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The Girl In The Box - 7/14/2004 7:34:52 PM   
MasterMalice


Posts: 51
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		If Anyone watched A&E tonight I would like to hear your comments of The Girl In The Box. I will add my comments later.

AMERICAN JUSTICE®
The Girl in the Box
Tune In:
Wednesday, July 14 @ 7pm ET/PT

In the Spring of 1977, 20-year-old Colleen Stan left school to hitchhike from Oregon to Los Angeles. Little did she know when she accepted a ride with Cameron and Janice Hooker that she would end up their captive for seven years.


Explore the case that became a national sensation after Colleen finally escaped. Raped, tortured and kept confined, often inside a coffin-like box beneath the Hookers’ waterbed, the Hookers appeared mild-mannered and church going. Cameron Hooker insisted that their perverse master-slave relationship was consensual and that they were in love. Colleen told a very different account. The case remains riddled with contradictions, as expert witnesses, investigators and attorneys discuss what really happened.


http://www.mastermalice.com
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 7/14/2004 7:50:29 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Hello Malice,

I haven't seen the documentary in question, and I don't know the specifics of the case, but it raises a related issue that is worth mentioning. Many dominants (especially the men) think that the risk that they take when interacting with a slave or submissive that they don't know is minimal, and that the slave is taking all the risk. It ain't so. As I said, I haven't seen this documentary, and I don't know the case, but every dominant out there needs to be aware that a story like this could be told about them at some point by an emotionally unstable man or woman who feels wronged for whatever reason and wants to "get even". No, it's never happened to me, but I know of instances where it has. The take home lesson is don't rush into things with submissives or slaves that you don't know. They aren't the one taking all the risk.

Take care of yourself.

Leonidas

(in reply to MasterMalice)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 7/14/2004 8:13:19 PM   
SherriA


Posts: 544
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I've read the book "Perfect Victim" which tells Colleen Stan's story. She was vulnerable and Hooker got lucky. He did indeed find a "perfect victim", who he was able to brainwash enough to believe that if she left she would be hunted down, tortured and killed by a secret society of "masters".

It really was a very disturbing story, and yet another example of how NOT to do things.

IMNSHO, ymmv, etc, etc, etc.

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to MasterMalice)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 7/15/2004 12:35:07 AM   
UtahGoddess


Posts: 205
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Utah
Status: offline 		Just to keep this from becoming a "Let's feel sorry for Cameron Hooker because he was a misunderstood Dom"....I want to remind everyone he was a sadistic KILLER...not a Dom.

I did not see the Television docu-drama in question, but I am familiar with the particulars of this case. So before we go feeling sympathy for him....let's reflect for a few minutes on the fate of his first victim. Marie Spannhake was 18 years old when they stopped to give her a ride. She was beaten, hung from the rafters. To stop her screams he cut her vocal chords. When she still did not comply he attemped to kill her by shooting her with a pellet gun. This "naughty slave" was STILL not obedient enough to die ....so in the end he strangled her.

Just a little added perspective from me to whomever may be interested. You can read more about this case at :

http://www.koolpages.com/bedlam/hooker1.html

Ms Sandi

< Message edited by UtahGoddess -- 7/15/2004 12:36:00 AM >

_____________________________

"The Masochist desires to experience stronger sensations, but desires that it should be inflicted with Love. The Sadist desires to inflict stronger sensations, but desires that it should be felt as Love" Havelock Ellis The Project Gutenberg

(in reply to SherriA)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 7/15/2004 6:52:17 AM   
melycious


Posts: 45
Joined: 1/20/2004
Status: offline 		i have read numerous books on this case..it always amazes me that because at some point Colleen did not scream and run away and didnt fight the abuse (and yes it was abuse), she somehow requested this encounter?...

lets all sit back, and think.. we are hitchhiking(in a time when hitching was a normal occurance) we got picked up by a straightlooking couple with their infant child in the car.. within an hour, we were bound and our head stuck in a closed box lined with rough carpet, where we could see nothing, hear nothing and a baby was placed on top as a sitting spot. Within the first 12 hours, we are subject to electrical torture, and confined in a close box.... i'm thinking..as much of a smart ass as i am, and as much as i think i would fight, i might also be thinking the this man is incrediably above the normal societal fears (kidnapped in daylight, with infant in tow) and perhaps i need to cooperate. As time went on, i believe she simply was a victims of stockholm syndrome.

is she a victim in this situation ... of course.. is she submissive in general? perhaps.. but in order to enter into a submissive relationship, she needed to know that she was submission and that her submission was as a result of a educated, thought out process. Because she obliged her captor in engaging in his sadastic tendancies does not equal consent on any level.

I agree with the assessment of Cam as a killer, we know about Maria S.. and believe that there may have been others..

I find it interesting that no one has commented on Janice Hooker. the wife, who aided and abetteted (she states she did this because if she let her husband have a slave, he would let her have the baby AND would stop asking her to do the harder stuff), of course, she had the baby, he got the slave AND he continued to torture her as well.. finally she disclosed the history of the previous years..

Interesting case in all its facets....

mely

(in reply to UtahGoddess)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 7/15/2004 8:20:22 AM   
SirDominion


Posts: 1
Joined: 5/24/2004
From: Houston
Status: offline 		I have also read the book "Perfect Victim" and the idea that Cameron Hooker was some sort of misunderstood Dom is scary enough.

A good Dom has to be able to tell the difference between what is basically a fantasy between two consenting adults, and reality. Therein lies Hooker's problem, he wanted a "real" slave, someone that was not only completely dependent on him but had no choice but to be completely dependent on him. He tortured Colleen Stans with no regard to her safety, comfort, or even permission for pete's sake. He kidnapped her, and this was no playful fantasy between two people who knew each other, Hooker found someone venerable and he took complete advantage of the situation.

Nor am I comfortable with the idea of Colleen being a "perfect victim", whatever the hell that means. None of us know how we would react to such manipulations (for manipulate Colleen is exactly what Hooker did, from creating phony news articles about the so called BDSM group he belonged to, to creating a sense in her that this organization was world wide and all sorts of important people were in it. Hooker had a surprising level of sophistication when it came to brainwashing techniques). Hell I am a magician that specializes in mentalism and con artistry. Yet even I was almost taken one day by one of the oldest con's in the book, The Pigeon Drop. No one can tell how they will behave when caught completely off guard, like Ms. Stans was, most certainly.

Lord knows I have kept women in boxes, but the difference is that the women in question always knew that all they had to say is "Enough" and that would be that. They were not forced to stick around, and everything, but everything was consensual. I work really hard to make sure that anything I do with a sub/slave is safe, clean, sane and consensual.

I also have to agree that a Dom can be in just as much danger from an unknown sub than a sub with an unknown Dom, though I am not sure if the frequency is quite the same (I have known many subs that have gotten hurt from idiot wannabe Doms, I only know one Dom who was arrested for rape after meeting with a supposed sub). It does not hurt to have some sort of written permission slip when starting play with someone you don't know very well. Don't get me wrong, I don't think a court would accept such a contract as a contract, but it would at least show that the submissive was in an agreeable state of mind before anything happened.

So bottom (heh) line should always be:

Let's all be extremely careful out there.

< Message edited by SirDominion -- 7/15/2004 8:21:14 AM >

(in reply to melycious)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 7/20/2004 11:19:11 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with You Leonidas
and Utah he was a Sadist
which is a part of BDSM.
One need not be a Dominant
nor a suplicant to be BDSM
and many S/M folks are religious.
True the not so happy ending
side of Our Lifestyle but a very
real and true part of it none the
less. A Sadist at any given time
can overstep control if They feel
They can or have gotten away
with it. However the majority of
Us can and do keep control of
these desires at All times. The
majority of Sadists you will never
know for most hide their Sadistic
desires and actions and travel
amonst a small group of like minded.
Like stories of this are more common
then you think. Many only hear the
stories of such from their local areas.
Its very easy to see the statistics
Country wide and World wide on the
Police, Sheriff, State Troopers, FBI,
public information sites.

(in reply to SirDominion)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 7/20/2004 1:08:15 PM   
dixiedumpling


Posts: 456
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: southeast Mississippi
Status: offline 		I believe there's a generally accepted condition that develops when someone is at someone else's complete mercy. They hold your life in their hands, they torture you and keep you in a closet or box. Brainwashing? But there's another name for it. Something Syndrome. Think about Patty Hurst. Or Elizabeth Smart. They couldn't have run away even if they had been given the opportunity to. They are literally scared to disappoint their captor. They begin to identify with the person who has the control. This isn't about D/s. Hooker was/is a criminal and Colleen was a victim.

_____________________________

Toodles,
dixiedumpling

My mind is no place to play alone. Anna Pigeon as written by Nevada Barr

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 7/20/2004 1:14:19 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

They are literally scared to disappoint their captor.


The psychology is a lot deeper than just fear.

An abused spouse, a hostage, or other's who live in terror simply hit a point where they can no longer comprehend a life outside of the situation they are in. They identify with their captors, and in many cases correspond with them in jail as if they are lovers or former lovers.

I hear people talk about how a survivor of spousal abuse should just "leave her husband" and these people dont realize that, for the most part, she cannot.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to dixiedumpling)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 4/8/2006 12:36:19 AM   
rivenmoon


Posts: 330
Joined: 6/5/2005
Status: offline 		I read the same book here in Australia,

I am not SM inclined, however...
If S&M is practiced by consenting (and i mean consent being give before activity and not under any duress) then thats fine.

However, when a sadisticly influenced mind oversteps the mark then its a different matter and that also includes abusive relationships.

To draw a parallel -  I have been a advocate for mental illness and the majority of ppl who have mental illness conduct their lives and contribute each day within the general community.
Through positive moves the general community is slowly becoming more tolerant and understanding of mental illness with positive information and education to overcome the uncalled for discrimination against the mentally ill.
There is only a small percent here in Australia (I don't know USA stats) of ppl who are catorgised as criminally insane.

You could see a similiarity in misunderstandings encountered by the sado-maso lifestylers (correct me if I am wrong) they live within the general community and contribute, yet they also encounter ignorance and discimination. 
Just as BDSM does across the board due to ignorance in the general public and misrepresentation by media.


As for anyone that oversteps the mark and breaks the law, then they have to face the justise system irrespective.
Which I  feel is what had to happen with Cameron Hooker and his wife Janice who was an accomplice to the fact.

I suppose in such cases you could term them the criminally sadisic; I have a gut feeling that they are the same as the minority of the criminally insane a small percentage of the general population. What do you think?

The question of judgement on such cases is whether the criminal act was done due to a criminally sadistic mind or a criminally insane mind....and a victim is still a victim regardless, Colleen Stan was kidnapped, had her civil liberties denied and was tortured without consent in the first instance and in that very first instance a crime was committed.
Ask yourself seriously, either way,  do you want such persons to be loose within the BDSM community let alone the general community????

I can think of 2 such ppl here in Australia David and Catherine Birnie.Their sadistic criminal activities eventually lead to the murder of several victims for which they where brought to justice and were finally imprisioned, David Birnie eventually hung himself in prison, Catherine to date is still awaiting parole.
. 

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 4/8/2006 12:54:44 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		I thought this looked familiar: http://www.collarchat.com/Girl_in_the_box/m_252567/tm.htm



_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to rivenmoon)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 4/8/2006 6:11:25 AM   
OwnedTimes


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		Hey fellow,that story is now old hat. I recall reading the book 20 years ago and it was old then.

(in reply to MasterMalice)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 4/8/2006 12:28:16 PM   
MasterRenegade77


Posts: 1852
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Upstate N.Y. (Broome Co.)
Status: offline
I heard of this story a long time ago, I wasn't there so I can't judge who's wrong or right, I'll  let others judge for themselves...
I do think every Dominant should have a contract with an sub/slave that they're going to be with or even scene R/t with... It should be Witnessed by several people, possibly even notarized that way Both the Dom & the sub/slave know where they stand...
It should be all inclusive ie Duration,Location, Acts to be performed & Hard Limits!!!

(in reply to Leonidas)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 4/8/2006 6:04:03 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		You feel sorry for this girl, what about Jack in the Box. From my calculations he's be in that box for decades and no one has even attempted to free him. I guess as long as he makes those spicy chicken sandwiches and potato logs no one cares.  

(in reply to MasterMalice)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 4/8/2006 7:39:16 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		I tried to free Jack on several occasions using M80s. I think that's where they got the idea for those commercials when they started getting rid of the giant heads that would take your order. Now, I kinda miss those...

sniff...

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

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RE: The Girl In The Box - 4/8/2006 10:46:32 PM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I've read the books and seen this case on another detective show. The guy was a lunatic and his wife was so mentally abused and brainwashed she didn't have a clue. The woman he kidnapped he totally brainwashed her and kept her with threats of a secret orgnization of Masters that would kill her if she tried to run away. Its really very sad and sickening to know there are people like this out there.

~Lashra

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 4/9/2006 7:43:36 AM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		I've read about the case in the past, as true crime is one of my interests. As I recall, the victim was allowed some freedoms, but never felt that she could escape. Assuming what I remember is true, I can understand the possible occurance of Stockholm Syndrome (that is, identifying and coming to "love" or "admire" the captor). However, I do not believe that attacking, kidnapping, torturing, and forcing a woman into captivity is a form of consensuality.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to MasterMalice)
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RE: The Girl In The Box - 4/9/2006 8:14:48 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Ha! To the "Jack-in-the-Box" comments. 

Re:" The Girl in the Box"  event - while even if I was able to understand why this guy did this, it goes without saying that he had no consent from his victim. He's a criminal and the justice system dealt with him. Good. That girl's life is forever changed (It's maybe a good bet not in any good way at all) because of what he did to her.

I live in Omaha, Nebraska - and about 18 months ago there was a similar story that happened in our town. 

This couple who were married and had four kids lived in a house that had the windows and doors all boarded up. Since it was a neighborhood where people didn't take great care of their property I guess no neighbors ever questioned why they were all boarded up. Or maybe (can't remember) they had an received some relatively plausible explanation from the husband as to why they were - in any case no neighbors seemed very curious about why the house looked this way.

The husband never, ever let the wife - for 10 Years - leave the house for any reason. He had physically removed handles from the house's two entry and exit doors and boarded over those doors too -  and he told her he woud kill her if she ever tried to leave the house. She was something like 28 years old at the time and he was a similar age (maybe 30). They'd been married for 10 years when she finaly got away from him. Right after their honey-moon he'd apparently turned from Dr. Jekyll into Mr. Hyde and started beating her to a pulp every day and gradually boarding up the windows and finally the doors in the house. He almost killed her more than once.

He did it in front of their kids. She kept having more kids. I guess she didn't really want to do that (not that it would have mattered) because after she escaped she said the reason she finally decided to run away was because she didn't want her kids exposed anymore to her daily beatings. They saw it all (thanks dad).

Their kids (ages something like 4,6,8 & 9, I forget exactly now - how old they were - but they were young) didn't ever get to go outside the house either - the youngest  had never seen  snow - or even grass flowers or trees- because they were never outside.

One day when the husband was at work - even though she was terrified to do it (she was convinced he meant what he said about killing her if she tried to leave) the wife just took some tool (a hammer and screwdriver I think) and started prying boards off the back door. She told her kids she was taking them for ice cream or to the store (I forget which).

The kids were all excited because this Jack_ass of a husband never, ever took his family anywhere - no playground or anywhere - ever. She piled them in the car (for some reason, they had two cars even though he only used one)and they drove to her mother's house. Her mother had not seen her in-person in 10 years - even though they "got along". This is where I really gotta wonder  why nobody did something to find out what was going on here - I remember reading some half-baked explanation as to why her relatives didn't try to contact her - she'd told them some reason she could not see them - but they were (supposedly) "suspicious" it wasn't "the real reason" she'd said she could no longer see them - But- her relatives (she had two sisters and a brother and they said they all cared about her and seemed like nice people but somehow - they never followed up and found out just why she'd become so isolated. Why not?  They just "let it go". Why? if that were my sister I'd be over there with a gun myself - or call the police and have them do it.

Anyway - she stayed for a night or so with her mother, but then knew her husband would be out with a gun hunting them down (some folks of course have no fear of the law, and-or perhaps working brain cells)- so she stayed at a woman's shelter for a few months and they "re-situated her' - in town. She was in an "under-ground" shelter situation where nobody except the shelter workers knew where she was for her own safety.

I can't even remember now how her story got on the local news, but it also made the national news and she told her story on a "60 Minutes" type of tv show last year. After her story got some publicity she (I'm glad) got all kinds of organizations and institutions that offerred to do things like put her through college and help her with housing and things like medical and day-care. It was a heart-breaking story.

When they interviewed her on tv I thought she appeared amazingly composed, considering what she'd been through. She said her kids are "doing fine" - they were not on the tv show. They'd been allowed to attend schoool in the boarded up house - for a few years. Then suddenly - no school, even. So they had a lot of school to catch up on. At least now they know and see their masternal grand-parents. I can just imagine what life must be like if her (now ex) husband's parents are in a court battle trying to see those grand-children. The tv interview didn't cover that part of her situation much.

Her husband is doing a long prison sentence. Fine by me. - Susan   

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2006 9:08:29 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
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