Needs vs Wants vs Desires (Full Version)

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pixelslave -> Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/7/2008 8:37:17 PM)

Another session I attended at SPLF was about Relationships, both starting and ending them. [:D]
 
The session was very interesing for several reasons to me.  First, it was led by a woman who considers herself poly, while I relate to others as monogamous.  Yet that didn't prevent me from walking away from it with many insights which I felt worth sharing and worthy of further thought and disscussion.  From her poly premise, she considered that no one person can meet anyone in particular's needs.  In many senses there's some truth to that in that we have often have friends with whom we only share certain activities with.  For me, the more intimate ones would be activities which I'd only want to share with my partner.  Your mileage of course would vary and I make no judgements on your choices in the matter. [:D]
 
The real gist of her presentation that I'd like to discuss is that she suggested we make lists of our "needs", our "wants", and our "desires".  As presented, she considered needs as being non-negotiable.  If a person couldn't satisfy your needs, then it was obvious to her that you should rule them out as a partner.  When it came to wants, those are what she considered negotiable in a relationship, provided they could be balanced to the satisfaction of both.  Desires of course were what I'd call "icing on the cake".  I learned a long time ago that there'd be some activities which I enjoy that I'd readily do without when looking at the big picture in order to have an overal satisfactory relationship.  While I do have a foot fetish, I've yet to meet a woman who didn't enjoy having her feet rubbed. [;)]
 
Needs are things like emotional security, trust, honesty, commitment, chemistry, and many other things which are unique to each individual.  Wants might be things like "services", kinks, kinds of play, amount of time for play, details of a power exchange, shared vanilla interests, someone who'd do the cooking, etc.
 
Desires of course could be brown hair, blue eyes, slim, rubenesque, muscular, wealthy, "beautiful" (eye of the beholder kind of thing if you ask me), drives a ferrari, and so on.
 
So my question to you, is how many of you have taken that kind of look at your needs, wants and desires?  More importantly, does your profile reflect them and will it attract the kind of person who fits the balance you're looking for?  If it doesn't, are you fishing with the right bait?  Are you prepared to share this kind of information with a prospective Domme or sub?
 
As a final part of her presentation, she shared her thoughts on how to end relationships more peacefully and on a more happy note.  I think I leaned forward to listen to this part carefully. [8D]  Her suggestion was to have a prenuptual or the equivalent for all of your relationships, such as a D/s contract that included such things!  Her reasoning was that while you're still in a loving relationship, it's much easier to work those things out than when one or both of you is angry at the other and involving divorce attorneys or friends on how to split your assets.  She also suggested they be reviewed regularly as things change and you're still in a loving relationship and able to divide things amicably.  When I think of the money, emotional grief and legal expense it would have saved, my how I wish my ex and I had done something similar! [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m24.gif[/image] 
 
As a result of doing that, she's been able to remain friends with all of her exes (previous partners as she prefers to refer to them).  I thought that was worth sharing and would welcome any discussion it would generate.  I remember one comment I made during her presentation was that I could envision where reviewing and adjusting a prenup for life changes when things were going well, could possibly in itself set off a divorce or othe conflicts.  LOL! [&:]
 
 - pixel



Kitte9 -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/7/2008 8:44:57 PM)

As always, pixel, thought provoking, well-presented, and insightful. I shall have to do some soul-searching to find the anwers right for me. Thank you.



MsIncontrol -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/7/2008 8:54:18 PM)

Pixel,

Thanks for sharing this.  As a person who is an organizer of events and presenter at events, I am happy to see you more than a week later still contemplating and discussing things you learned at your event.

As far as needs, wants and desires go...this is something I am very well aware of.  Because I do identify as poly I think I am more aware.  My primary partner meets all of my needs, most of my wants..and a few of my desires.  Those additional play partners and potential life partners will also have to fit into that same ratio for both of us. 

Interestingly my submissive/husband and I have a planned weekend retreat that coincides with our anniversary each year that we do somewhat of a "state of the union" discussion.  We talk about the previous year, accomplishments, downfalls, areas to improve...make goals for the next year...and long term....and re-assess the relationship.  Fortunately this time of reflection has always been a wonderful period of good communication, growth and maintains the health of the relationship.

I am also friends with all of my previous partners...and love that term..thanks for suggesting it....I think I am very good at assessing things and have always been able to end things amicably and friendly.  It is a small world and even smaller circle when you are the BDSM community..so it is likely I am at many events per month or year with the same people and I never want to have any anger toward someone I once loved.  I think this is more about choosing people wisely in the first place also.

For what its worth, my husband and I have a pre-nup...and I am so glad we do.  We were both a little older when we married and both had quite a number of assets and property.  Some people who knew about it were up in arms saying things like "why plan for your divorce before you get married etc." but my answer was...I buy fire insurance even though I never plan on my house burning down. 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  Your post have been very thought provoking lately.

Edited to add:
I once heard a comedian say something like...too bad marriage licenses weren't like drivers licenses that you had to renew every 4 years.  That way you wouldn't need divorce..just don't renew the license.



MaamJay -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/7/2008 9:38:03 PM)

Great post pixel! I did a lot of work on needs, wants and desires twice ... once after My first marriage failed, and again once I had discovered bdsm and decided, hell yes, I want to LIVE this life. Since then it has become second nature to regularly review these, especially in terms of what I hope to find in a 24/7 sub/slave for Me. I like to be clear but also still be flexible to not close off opportunities too soon.

Re the previous partners ... well so far I am doing pretty well in terms of My 2 husbands. I am still friends with both, even though the second one caused Me lots of grief and I've not yet done divorce thing from him. I was such good friends with #1 that he gave Me away when I married #2, and I sang at his second marriage! I figure there's enough hate in the world, why add to it? In terms of divvying things up, I haven't had a pre-nup (they're not very common in Australia). However, the one pre-agreement was, if anything goes wrong, we handle it ourselves and keep lawyers out. My first hub and I deliberately waited some time (over a year) before divvying anything beyond the essentials I took when I moved out ... by then the heat was off, and we could be calm and helpful to each other. Both made a concession or 2, but both ended up feeling satisfied that it was as fair as possible. With hubby 2, I was moving interstate so the divvying had to be done sooner and I don't think it was quite as good. But then, a big part of why I was leaving was his selfishness, so that was always going to be an issue when splitting up goods. There are a few things that irk Me, but then as now, I come back to "Is it worth creating WWIII over an ornament (even if it was a birthday gift to Me from My sister?) or some teddy bears or some signed CDs or whatever?" I decided it wasn't. He still feels I owe him some $$ back ... I know that if I took it to court, he would owe Me ... but then the ones who'd get it would be the lawyers. So I don't want to go down that track. Master and I don't have a formal prenup either but there is a clear understanding in place. And as He is the most trustworthy of the 3, I feel pretty safe. However, I can see the value in a prenup, especially where both partners have prior assets ... or where there is great disparity in assets (I am sure Paul McC wishes he'd had one!). And MsIncontrol ... I liked your comment about insurance ... exactly! We all hope we never get to use the accident, cancer, fire, theft, flood etc insurance that we take out and pay for ... but it's helpful to have it in that event!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]



ShaktiSama -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/7/2008 9:51:41 PM)

I've never liked pre-nuptual agreements, because I think it is hard to succeed at something as difficult as love if you give yourself constant permission to fail.   Then again, I'm not revolving-door poly--once I love someone, they stay loved, even if we are no longer "together" per se.  So perhaps I am practicing the same strategy, in a different way.  My pre-nuptual agreement is "I will always love you."

I haven't had any trouble maintaining peaceful relations after a break-up for many years.  Parting ways without the need to punish someone is fairly easy, if you didn't get into the relationship expecting them to be something they were not, and you have accepted your own responsibility for the failure.

I deliberately keep my profile free of prescriptions and my mind and heart open to people of all sorts, precisely because I find that real humans are more valuable than my prejudices.  I am as capable of making a laundry list as anyone, but I find the practice pretty negative in general--it rarely attracts even people who have the qualities you might be looking for, and drives away other people who think you aren't looking for them before you've even had a chance to look!

The things that are really non-negotiable in my life are not about potential partners anyway--they are about me.  My nature, goals, and obligations I cannot really change.

I need to be myself.  I want someone to share my time on earth with.  I desire submissive men as partners.

That's about it.  [;)]



aidan -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/7/2008 10:17:34 PM)

If you switch around some of the pro-nouns and terminology Shakti and I are pretty much on the same page.

I can certainly see the benefit of codifying some of the things you talk about pixel, but personally I would feel rather foolish doing it.

There are somethings that yes, I feel are pretty much necessary for a romantic partner. We need to have common philosophical ground, I need to be able to spend a good amount of time with you in conversation without feeling the urge to gouge out my eyes with a grapefruit spoon, we need to have at least some of the same interests and hobbies. These, though, are pretty general terms for anybody I associate with on a non-professional or -academic basis. (Now that I look back, this explains why I avoid my genetic family so much.)

But I'm a skeptic by nature, and there's always the caveat that something could possibly turn these ideas on their heads. Is it likely I'd fall so madly in love with a devoutly Catholic woman and force myself to move past that huge philosophical road-block? Statistics and a dental record say that, no, no it's not. Is it possible? Of course, and I'd be rather short-sighted to not keep that in mind. If there's enough of a connection there, it's possible we can circumvent it because we click in other ways. As long as I don't have to change who I am and what I believe.

To paraphrase Shakti, I need to be myself.  I want someone to share my time on earth with.  I desire Dominant women as partners.



pixelslave -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/8/2008 9:26:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
My pre-nuptual agreement is "I will always love you."


What if the "you" that you married greatly changes and becomes an entirely different person after 15 or 16 years that you no longer recognize as the person you married?  I ask because it happened to me.  You may be in control of yourself, but you can't control the other person regardless of how much you'd like to think you can.
 
quote:


I haven't had any trouble maintaining peaceful relations after a break-up for many years.  Parting ways without the need to punish someone is fairly easy, if you didn't get into the relationship expecting them to be something they were not, and you have accepted your own responsibility for the failure.


Again, if the other doesn't want to end things amicably, what can you do?  Regardless of how much responsibility you accept for your part in things, you may have to deal with an angry former partner.  I have no desire to punish my former partner and only wish her happiness (most of the time, the exception being when I'm very frustrated with her behavior).  Yet, dealing with her in terms of my UM's is often a struggle due to her frequent passive-agressive behavior toward me and her stated desire to not participate in co-parenting the UM's.  She still wishes to treat me as though I'm her submissive partner who should be at her beck and call whenever she wishes; becoming very angry when I no longer respond in that manner. 
 
So, what does one do when they're in that situation?  What does one do when their former partner decides to litigate during a divorce until the assets they accumulated during a marriage that lasted for over 15 years are completely gone and even more is spent on legal fees beyond that over the silliest of things?  I've been subpoenaed to appear in court to sign documents that all my former partner would have needed to do was ask.  Imagine spending $12 to $15k in legal fees between the two of you to sign a simple document of no real consequence! [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m13.gif[/image]
 
That's the benefit to having a prenuptual that the presenter spoke of, especially if reviewed periodically as things change in your situation (such as when children are introduced into the picture).  These kinds of things are hopefully avoided.  My former partner used the legal system to vent her anger toward me to both our financial loss, creating stress in both our lives, and more importantly to the detriment of our UM's emotional stability. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m23.gif[/image]
 
quote:


I deliberately keep my profile free of prescriptions and my mind and heart open to people of all sorts, precisely because I find that real humans are more valuable than my prejudices.  I am as capable of making a laundry list as anyone, but I find the practice pretty negative in general--it rarely attracts even people who have the qualities you might be looking for, and drives away other people who think you aren't looking for them before you've even had a chance to look!


That has always made a great deal of sense to me.  I've always tried not to visualize the person I might be with next. [&:]
 
quote:


The things that are really non-negotiable in my life are not about potential partners anyway--they are about me.  My nature, goals, and obligations I cannot really change.

I need to be myself.  I want someone to share my time on earth with.  I desire submissive men as partners.

That's about it.  [;)]


I think that was the point of the session I attended; understanding what your nature, goals, and obligations are that you really cannot change with the rest presumably being either negotiable or things I'd consider bonuses or inconsequential. [:D]
 
 - pixel



MiladyElaine -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/8/2008 9:52:22 AM)

There's an awfully fine line between wants and desires!
In My life I've concluded that people change and circumstances change.  If you can't live with the changes you move on best you can.



LadyPact -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/8/2008 9:59:31 AM)

Hello pixel.

First, let Me compliment you on a well written post.  It's a credit to the presenter, as well as to yourself.  I'm glad you came away from this having learned so much from the event.

Some time back, I began discussing a possible situation with an acquaintance who was petitioning to serve as My boy.  During those talks, I recall a particular conversation we were having by phone one evening.  As I was going through some of what I thought were key questions to see if we were well matched, I asked him to tell Me about what he believed to be his needs and wants on a physical, emotional, spiritual, and emotional level.  Let Me interject here that this happened to be an articulate and well rounded individual, who was very open about himself and I never had to do any prompting of any kind to get him to tell Me his point of view.  He was well versed in the lifestyle, and had served several others in his experience.  This was the only occassion where the other end of the phone had gone silent.  When I asked him why he wasn't answering Me, he told Me that he was completely shocked, and didn't know what to say because no Dominant, male or female, had ever asked him that before.  (For other reasons, we weren't matched, but I'm very fond of him.)

It seems to Me that these are all questions that we should be asking ourselves, before asking them of someone else.  Afterall, if we aren't aware of our needs, wants, and desires, there's no possible way to know if a potential partner meets them.  Being poly Myself, I'm very much accepting of the fact that I don't think any one person can fulfill all of My needs.  My husband does come close in many areas, but not all.  It's that knowledge of Myself that allows Me to know what wants and desires should make a sub a good match for Me. 

No, I don't especially have these things listed in My profile.  I consider these types of things that should be talked about with a potential partner.  This includes those things that are kink related and non kink related.  I'm more the type to have this type of conversation privately.  It's more an opening of My inner self, so I prefer to keep that intimate.



MiladyElaine -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/8/2008 10:18:30 AM)

LadyPact says " It's that knowledge of Myself that allows Me to know what wants and desires should make a sub a good match for Me."

Are you saying you have to know yourself in this way in order to know what you are looking for in a partner?  While I know My wants, I have trouble distinguising them from desires.



ShaktiSama -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/8/2008 10:51:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave
What if the "you" that you married greatly changes and becomes an entirely different person after 15 or 16 years that you no longer recognize as the person you married?  I ask because it happened to me.  You may be in control of yourself, but you can't control the other person regardless of how much you'd like to think you can.

 
I was married once too.  [;)]  I suppose there is some wiggle room as to how we define "you" in "I will always love you"  [:D].  But I would tend to say that situations where someone becomes "unrecognizable" after years of marriage tend to be situations where their true nature is finally revealed--retrospectively, you can usually review the relationship and see that these tendencies were always present, and either largely suppressed or simply ignored.

Anyway, all exes and all break-ups are not created equal.  Ultimately, there are people I have parted ways with, as friends or lovers, that I no longer speak to or spend time with.  If they contact me, however, they are met with as much warmth and understanding as possible.  As you point out, I do have control over myself--and it's amazing what the control of self can achieve, in terms of one's relations with others. 

 
quote:

Again, if the other doesn't want to end things amicably, what can you do? 

 
Walk away.  If you have no need to punish the other person, and they need to hurt you, then remaining in contact is simply an expression of the desire to punish yourself.

In this case, the involvement of the children is a difficult issue.  I have always been of the opinion that if two former spouses cannot get along, especially if one or both of them have a tendency to use the children as implements of torture on the other parent, one of them needs to take full custody and establish a long break and a lot of distance from the other.  The children may actually be better off taking a longer "break" from the suffering parent than they are to be subjected to the flailing and raging between the two parents.  Divorce is sometimes a painful surgery to turn one conjoined legal/emotional entities into two autonomous ones again; writing down an "agreement" beforehand will not necessarily make that process easier.  No one can honestly sign a piece of paper which says "I will not feel sadness, rage, betrayal, shame, guilt, and denial if this relationship does not work out."  Especially if the circumstances of potential break-up are unknown. 

Regardless, it is incredibly unhealthy for a child to be used as a means to hurt an adult parent; if your former spouse is subjecting her children to that kind of abuse, they may be better off without her in their lives for a while.  At least until such time as she vents her anger, goes through her stages of grieving and achieves acceptance, finds a new relationship, and/or loses her need to punish. 
 
This is just my opinion, based on completely subjective experience.  My father was married uncusscessfully twice, and had two daughters:  the mothers of the two children tried different strategies in dealing with the post-break-up parenting.  Turns out that in our case, there really was no such thing as too much distance from a bad spouse/bad parent.  [:'(]



LadyPact -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/8/2008 11:46:24 AM)

Elaine, I will make My best attempt at an explanaiton.

For Myself, I have to say, yes, I do.  I have to know what I am looking for in order to find it.  This does not mean to say that My wants and desires do not change in time.  I'm very much of the mind that certain people in My life fill these spaces, just as I fill it for them.

Let's pick something in particular to use as an example.  I think the easiest one for Me would be playing with whips, to demonstrate the point.  It's obviously not a need.  I'd certainly survive if I never picked up a whip again.  It isn't especially a want, because I really don't see it that high on the priority list.  However, get Me in the company of others throwing whips, and it's certainly a desire.

Where does this fall into the context in My life?  Well, I can promise you that My husband, who does fit most of My needs in My primary relationship, wouldn't step up for it.  He's seen Me use whips on others, and he certainly wouldn't be willing to bottom for it.  (I mean no offense to him by this, but he'll readily tell you that he isn't nearly as intense as I am in play.)  He's neither a submissive, nor a masochist.  My sub, who is a masochist, has this as a hard limit, due to his own personal life experiences.  As I said, the whip thing isn't a huge deal to Me, and if I decide I have a desire to engage in that play, I have a casual partner or two who would gladly accomodate My little whim.

I hope at least some of that made sense.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MiladyElaine

LadyPact says " It's that knowledge of Myself that allows Me to know what wants and desires should make a sub a good match for Me."

Are you saying you have to know yourself in this way in order to know what you are looking for in a partner?  While I know My wants, I have trouble distinguising them from desires.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/8/2008 4:33:54 PM)

I know who I am, and I know what I want and need.  In spite of being an introspective and analytical person, I am sometimes surprised at what turns out to be a hard limit for me.  I am poly---and that is non-negotiable.  Who knew!  [:D]  That I got to that conclusion without a concurrent Relationship Disaster is the surprising part, I guess.

I think I added the line with a few personal adjectives when I figured that out---poly, atheist, politically liberal---just as a screen for those who would run the other way at the very thought of consorting with such a person.  I have always said "you can change your behavior but you can't change your Self", and that might sound flippant, but for me it holds true.  I can learn to TOLERATE having my feet rubbed---sorry, Pixel, you have now met the woman who hates foot massage!---but there's a host of other things that I will no longer compromise myself for. 

Would I have given you this same answer when I was twenty?  I'm not sure.  I wasn't all mellow then, the way I am now....



pixelslave -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/8/2008 5:50:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

Regardless, it is incredibly unhealthy for a child to be used as a means to hurt an adult parent; if your former spouse is subjecting her children to that kind of abuse, they may be better off without her in their lives for a while.  At least until such time as she vents her anger, goes through her stages of grieving and achieves acceptance, finds a new relationship, and/or loses her need to punish. 
 
This is just my opinion, based on completely subjective experience.  My father was married uncusscessfully twice, and had two daughters:  the mothers of the two children tried different strategies in dealing with the post-break-up parenting.  Turns out that in our case, there really was no such thing as too much distance from a bad spouse/bad parent.  [:'(]


Unfortunately, the legalities involved don't present me the option to remove my UM's from their mother.  Unless it can be proved she is physically abusing them (emotional abuse is nearly impossible to prove) or posing some other kind of threat to them such as disregard for their safety, ignoring their health care needs, or neglecting them by leaving them alone and unsupervised, it's nearly impossible to do what you suggest. [>:]
 
If there's one thing I discovered during my divorce it's that the laws here in Texas are greatly biased against a male who is submissive to his spouse or becomes a house husband at her request.  They just don't understand the dynamic nor see you as a man here unless you're the primary breadwinner for the family. 
 
 - pixel




pixelslave -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/8/2008 5:53:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I can learn to TOLERATE having my feet rubbed---sorry, Pixel, you have now met the woman who hates foot massage!---but there's a host of other things that I will no longer compromise myself for. 


Wow!  You're the first for me Lady Hibiscus!  Have you ever experienced reflexology with it? [;)]
 
 - pixel



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/8/2008 9:12:16 PM)

Foot massage is excruciatingly painful!  Foot worship, just nauseating...except for this one client I had that was an utter genius!  I am sure that reflexology would have me in really serious misery.



pixelslave -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/8/2008 9:21:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Foot massage is excruciatingly painful!  Foot worship, just nauseating...except for this one client I had that was an utter genius!  I am sure that reflexology would have me in really serious misery.


I'm genuinely sorry to hear that Lady Hibiscus.  I can't imagine giving a foot massage to a woman and causing her pain!  Ditto for a reflexology treatment which I always incorporate into my foot rubs to at least some degree.  For me, avoidance of pain, since it's so individual, is what I rely on feedback for as I begin to work with a new Mistress.  If it hurts that much to have your feet touched, it sounds to me as though they need some serious attention by a sensitive and responsive care giver. [&:]
 
 - pixel
 



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/8/2008 9:23:27 PM)

Welcome to my world.......most massage is out of the question for me, I have odd skin sensitivity.  Deep tissue stuff is RIGHT OUT.  I think it's part of my autoimmune thing, since my feet never hurt normally, except for the arthritis. 



pixelslave -> RE: Needs vs Wants vs Desires (3/8/2008 9:35:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Welcome to my world.......most massage is out of the question for me, I have odd skin sensitivity.  Deep tissue stuff is RIGHT OUT.  I think it's part of my autoimmune thing, since my feet never hurt normally, except for the arthritis. 


I see we're wandering far from the original topic.  If you have no objections, I'd be more than happy to contact you on the other side with some thoughts I could share. [:D]
 
 - pixel



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