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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 9:06:39 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

I think the Earth's axis shifted in the mid 1970s, during the recession triggered, to a great extent by the OPEC oil embargo. Or maybe when the Beatles were on the Ed Sullivan show for the first time.



Clear. Succint. To the point. Bravo.

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 9:13:51 PM   
heartcream


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Status: offline 		The Earth needs to be the next Superpower. All this competition is ridiculous. Why does one Nation need to be on top? We all have loads to offer, let us all get along. Let's stop manipulating, exploiting and shoving our ethnocentric dicks at each other. No one country is the Owner. It is a charade. People starving Anywhere means it is out of balance Everywhere. This is our World. We need to take care of each other, stop being so blind-sided by the glaring white light that has called itself power. All these set-ups, War games. It is all distraction. It would funny--if people didnt suffer gravely at the Hands of it. It would be easy to laugh at if the Earth wasnt being raped and abused by the Humans on it, treated as though Earth is a Third World Planet.

Loacation, location, location.

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 9:26:47 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Huh, when did America ever have an Empire? Its influence in the world was the result of monetary and economic dealings and the underhand support of dictatorships and other dodgy regimes... America never reigned over the Universe, like England did  .





        Exactly, Kitten.  We've haven't done it, yet.

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 9:48:06 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		We have never had an empire.  We flirted with the idea around the late 19th and early 20th Centuries with the Spanish-American War and our acquisition of Hawaii, but it never happened.  Empires are a bad idea; they are not sustainable.  The British Empire was a necessity of mercantilism, which is an idea that the Brits held onto even after it proved to be a bad idea.  I don't blame them.  Island nations like Britain and Japan had to do that.  But, it's much easier to trade with people rather than move in and control them.  America never had to do that.  We had all the resources we needed, we didn't have to get them somewhere else.  People should remember that most of the petroleum from the late 1800's to almost the middle of the 20th Century came from the United States.  We didn't need to spend large sums of money or manpower controlling distant lands. 

We were successful in the 20th Century because of our geographic isolation.  The USA was not in ruins after the First and Second World Wars.  Continental Europe was in ruins after the First World War.  All of Europe was in ruins after the Second, and so was a large portion of Asia.  We did share our wealth.  We are the ones that contributred huge amounts of money to help rebuild Europe and Asia.  That wasn't imperialism; it was good policy.  You can't really trade with someone if they don't have anything to trade.  It took awhile, but those countries caught back up with us.  That's not a horrible thing, it's actually good.  Competition is the best motivator for creativity and hard work. 

Empires are over, and superpowers are on their way out.  If you want to know who will be calling the shots in the 21st Century; it's business. 

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 3/8/2008 9:51:22 PM >

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/9/2008 2:47:09 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

It did happen.

Many would argue it was at the end of the century, a decent mark for the end of an era....others could argue that it was during Bush I, and then it slid through Clinton (1), others would say it was Bush II....some say it started in Reagan....

There's no question that the 20th century belonged to America, we owned the currency, we owned production, we owned the ideas.....and some would suggest that this is just a "lull" in the world order...but the truth is....it's clearly someone else's time.

When did it start....and when will our time clearly (definably) end?

And who will own it?

Who's the next Superpower?


There is plenty of 'question' that the US owned the entire 20th century... The start of unrealistic expectations about profit margins, outsourcing jobs, rise in imprisonment, raiding retirement funds, watering down of the currency, lobotomizing of the school system, etc. dates to the 1970s at least.

And the question as to whether China will be able to carry the ball remains to be answered. Even before reaching top dog status they are already plagued by problems that show up in the decline of a civilization... are those growing pains, or will China just be too big and ossified to ever sustain a pre-eminent position?

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/9/2008 4:31:02 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Huh, when did America ever have an Empire? Its influence in the world was the result of monetary and economic dealings and the underhand support of dictatorships and other dodgy regimes... America never reigned over the Universe, like England did  .



You have had you head in the sand if you really believe that, the American Empire operates exactly like the British Empire did, given a few slight differences due to a slightly different era. You say that America never reigned over the universe like England did, well you have more troops in more places in the world than Britain ever did. At the height of its power Britain had only 38,000 British troops in India, less than the number of American troops in Iraq. But that is by and by, the point is to force countries to trade on your terms, a foreign policy the US has consistently had and enforced where and whenever it can. It is only in the last decade that the US is being challenged. Americans are about the only people in the world that don't think the USA is an empire. It's an empire that dare not speak its name at home but empire it is. Go on believing the fairy tale you are fed in the American media that USA is only in foreign lands for the good of those lands. Yes, many people like American money (they liked British money once) but that doesn't mean they like America.

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/9/2008 4:42:30 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

We have never had an empire. 



Only Americans believe that.


quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

We flirted with the idea around the late 19th and early 20th Centuries with the Spanish-American War and our acquisition of Hawaii, but it never happened.  Empires are a bad idea; they are not sustainable.  The British Empire was a necessity of mercantilism, which is an idea that the Brits held onto even after it proved to be a bad idea.  I don't blame them.  Island nations like Britain and Japan had to do that.  But, it's much easier to trade with people rather than move in and control them.  America never had to do that.  We had all the resources we needed, we didn't have to get them somewhere else.  People should remember that most of the petroleum from the late 1800's to almost the middle of the 20th Century came from the United States.  We didn't need to spend large sums of money or manpower controlling distant lands. 



Are you trying to say America doesn't control other countries?

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

We were successful in the 20th Century because of our geographic isolation.  The USA was not in ruins after the First and Second World Wars.  Continental Europe was in ruins after the First World War.  All of Europe was in ruins after the Second, and so was a large portion of Asia.  We did share our wealth.  We are the ones that contributred huge amounts of money to help rebuild Europe and Asia.  That wasn't imperialism; it was good policy.  You can't really trade with someone if they don't have anything to trade.  It took awhile, but those countries caught back up with us.  That's not a horrible thing, it's actually good.  Competition is the best motivator for creativity and hard work. 


My parent's generation thought the sun shone out of the arse of Americans, they wouldn't hear a bad word said against America. However, subsequent generations have mixed feelings, more conservative types still think America is the light of the western world, many others think the US has over stayed its welcome when it became an empire. Left wing and liberal Europeans thought the war had ended imperialism in the west, it was disappointed to find the west had a new imperial power, this time in the shape of the USA.


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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/9/2008 5:01:02 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh

My vote is for India.  They are rising as the face of freedom in the world.  I think that we will be defined as having ended with the millenium, much as the British empire was seen as ending with the 1800's even if they were still the premiere power in the world after that for a time.


Ah but china now is letting people own land!  The question is....do they pay taxes on theland they own?  If they do then its nothing more than the fuedal system we have right here.






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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/9/2008 5:03:01 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		The US is empire.   any country that doesnt dance the dance is  ---reprimanded.

i  submit that history  is speeding up.    when bush stole the election - that is where i determine the line of   pre-emption has started.

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/9/2008 5:07:39 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Huh, when did America ever have an Empire? Its influence in the world was the result of monetary and economic dealings and the underhand support of dictatorships and other dodgy regimes... America never reigned over the Universe, like England did  .

Point is, Rich, the world doesn't revolve around this country... Time to wake up and smell the coffee: America's losing at her own game, and some say, about time, too... it's somebody else's turn. Personally, it doesn't affect me either way: I have no emotional investment in this.

All is for the best in the best of all capitalistic worlds :-) .


You think not?   Didnt you notice the world markets when we slid last time?  What do you think will happen to the world markets if we crash?  For those of you who think america is not an empire simply need to open your eyes imo.

quote:

rships and other dodgy regimes... America never reigned over the Universe, like England did .
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I disagree with you... America doesn't have an Empire. America just gained political influence through economic clout... Empires work the other way around...

Empires suck... I wouldn't claim I'm part of one... certainly, the end of the British Empire was a great thing. The shift in power has more than begun, whether you like it or not.

Now, if only we'd work at ensuring the balance doesn't tilt one way or another...


I would also disagree with this.  Economic, with a healty economy you can buy armies countries anything you want. 

When in hostory has "any" country that "did not" have a healthy and strong econmy ever become an empire?

Are you thinking brute force?  SOldiers need to be fed and paid you know.  Cant do that with out money.


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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/9/2008 5:13:29 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Huh, when did America ever have an Empire? Its influence in the world was the result of monetary and economic dealings and the underhand support of dictatorships and other dodgy regimes... America never reigned over the Universe, like England did  .

 

      Exactly, Kitten.  We've haven't done it, yet.


As I previously pointed out, only Americans believe that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Empire
Stuart Creighton Miller points out that the question of U.S. imperialism has been the subject of agonizing debate ever since the United States acquired formal empire at the end of the nineteenth century during the 1898 Spanish-American War. Miller argues that this agony is because of United States’ sense of innocence, produced by a kind of "immaculate conception" view of United States' origins.
 
Additionally, the U.S. has often provided direct military and financial support of autocratic rulers in its former possessions who accomplish US military and mercantile objectives, including Ferdinand Marcos, Park Chung Hee, Omar Torrijos, and Manuel Noriega - though all former US colonies, except Cuba, currently have democratically elected governments (this is debatable)

Hell, you just have to analyse American foreign policy, the deployment of American bases and troops around the world and the opinion of ordinary people who have to live under the regimes supported by the USA.  Yeah, many governments and establishments like the American Empire, they are looked after, just as many governments and establishments liked the British Empire too. Its the people beneath, who are robbed of dignity who recognize an Empire when they see one. Why do you think there is so much support for Castro and Cuba around the world? Because he fucked off the American Empire. Why is America so bitter about Cuba? Because its bad for any Empire to allow a small power fuck it off. Why couldn't America ever manage to get a working relationship with Iran? Same again, Empires can't allow smaller powers to get their independence without a high price.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/9/2008 5:14:21 PM >

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/10/2008 12:51:56 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		An interesting article discussing whether the US is an empire or not.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20040301fareviewessay83212a/g-john-ikenberry/illusions-of-empire-defining-the-new-american-order.html

The British Empire included both direct colonial rule and "informal empire." If empire is defined loosely, as a hierarchical system of political relationships in which the most powerful state exercises decisive influence, then the United States today indeed qualifies.
 
The United States is the imperfect but natural inheritor of the British system of global governance; it is open and integrative and inclined toward informal rule.
 
But Ferguson is even more taken by parallels with the British Empire. U.S. presidents, from Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, and John F. Kennedy to Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush, have put their power to work promoting the great liberal ideals of economic openness, democracy, limited government, human dignity, and the rule of law -- a "strategy of openness" that is remarkably similar, Ferguson argues, to the aspirations of the British Empire in the second half of the nineteenth century. After all, it was a young Winston Churchill who argued that the aim of British imperialism was to "give peace to warring tribes, to administer justice where all was violence, to strike the chains off the slave, to draw the richness from the soil, to place the earliest seeds of commerce and learning, to increase in whole peoples their capacities for pleasure and diminish their chances of pain. ... "

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/10/2008 1:24:30 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Intersting link you posted Meat, as usuall, it doesn't really agree with you. 

You quote miller, from the same article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Empire

"However, the historians Archibald Paton Thorton and Stuart Creighton Miller argue against the very coherence of the concept. Miller argues that the overuse and abuse of the term "imperialism" makes it nearly meaningless as an analytical concept.[3] Thorton wrote that "imperialism is more often the name of the emotion that reacts to a series of events than a definition of the events themselves. Where colonization finds analysts and analogies, imperialism must contend with crusaders for and against."[4] Political theorist Michael Walzer argues that the term "hegemony" is better than "empire" to describe the US' role in the world."

The article defines Imperialism---the Us does not meet the main defnition.  The third definition of the term Imerialism is as an Insult.  You can indeed use it that way if you like. 

We did hold an Empire after the Spanish American War--we gave it all back.  

And we are in Western europe at the behest of the countries there.  France asked us to leave and we did.  Czechoslovakia asked the USSR to leave, they sent in tanks and killed people by the hundreds.  Same happened in Hungary.  Bush and Rumsfled threatened to leave and the Europeons begged us to stay.  Meat is just angry because the Marxists didn't take over western Europe.  That doesn't make us an Empire.  But it does say a lot about you. 

The idea of the Modern American Empire is just leftover marxism.  America is a hegemonic power in a world economic system.  If we were a freaking Empire running things for ourselves, the world would be very different.   Whiny Europeon Marxists not withstanding.




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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/10/2008 2:33:12 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Whether you define it as an Empire or not the US has intervened in both overt and covert ways to remove regimes that it thought were inimical to its interests.
Mostly I think this intervention was wrong, ie Chile, Viet Nam, especially Viet Nam, Nicaragua etc.Further back, forcing their way into Japan.

http://ronpaul2008nyc.wordpress.com/foreign-policy-tidbit/
take a peek at number 9 in the list provided in the link.

The major blot at the moment on US foreign policy is the totally one sided support for Israel.
Why is that foreign policy  so blatantly biased?
Palestinians kill 10 over a couple of weeks, they, the Palestinians, are terrorists of the worst kind
Israelis kill 130 in one operation and flatten civilian living areas. Treated as a defensive operation and no critical comment, leastways none that I ever read.
Does the American public even know this kind of thing is happening ?

As for the anti Communist posture post WW2,.... laughable. Led to the VietNam tragedy that did.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/10/2008 3:12:55 AM >

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/10/2008 6:45:32 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		The answer is quite easy.   Who does the future belong to?    Well- those who earn it.  Thats who.

Aside from the Internet- creativity is lacking. Creativity and hard work are the seeds of new futures.

Due to my grandfathers gernation, I enjoy a good quality of life.  riding on that coat tail.  but as time goes on, things change.

a burst a creativity is needed to solve todays problems.

It could come from a person in America- but not necessarily.

Rather then worry we may not be the future- we should exsplore all.

America is big enough that if one region is too blank- one can pick up and locate to a region that suits.

Everything has become an us vs them mentality.

As for the future-birth rates in the west are low. a younger population is where the future usually is.

on that note illegal immigration is good.  we need people like this.
people on the mayflower did not have a license.  that-said, the newcomers should try to blend in. speak the language and blend in. that is what the deeper issue is.   people bash globaliztion- yet- when you shop- you vote with your dollars.... or yen or euro.

the leadership here is flawed. if the premise is "we are shortchanged"  then it spurs no creativity.  instead a call to action for THE most creative approaches to solutionns totodays problems, and a media that truly elaboarates ideas- is best.

based on media tho- we are screwed.   there is a HUGE dis-connect as to what Americans think America is-vs what the world thinks it is.

the disconnect is like legilating farts- you can try but all of humanity will fart, some will shtt profusely others will be constipated.   but no worries we will declare a war on farting.

anyhow  - the future goes to those that earn it. simple really

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/10/2008 10:48:14 AM   
xBullx


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Status: offline 		Hi kitten dearest,

I wasn't referring to the combative conquest, the fight  to perservere perhaps. My morality is a bit diifferent than yours I think and yes you are idealistic and int hat sady enough probably always going to end up disappointed with humanity as a whole.

I was gearing this post more to hard work achieving goals and desires. To being the vigilant man and not surrendering your rights and properties to someone that might behold the greed you are eluding too.

maybe someday, maybe someday.......

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

But Bull, you speak as if humanity  has fight over these spoils... there's more than enough resources for everybody... if we spend wisely. Don't you think it would be refreshing to stop fighting and killing each other out of greed and to start looking at the bigger picture? it's all such a waste... all this "my country's bigger than yours"... so pathetic and wasteful...

What legacy is all this leaving for the future generations? I become more nihilistic as I get older, because we are such a desperately selfish, petty specie... yet we have this capacity for beauty and spiritual enlightening... and I won't stop being...

Hopelessly idealistic.


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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/10/2008 10:51:17 AM   
kittinSol


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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Go on believing the fairy tale you are fed in the American media that USA is only in foreign lands for the good of those lands.



Hmmm... that is so far remote from my opinion, I don't know where to start in order to correct you.

PS: I'm not even American. Oil well...

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 3/10/2008 10:53:05 AM >

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/10/2008 12:46:21 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		I think the fact that we have military bases in well over 100 countries says something to this point. Why ? It's been said that if people in other countries were truly given a choice, many would elect anti-American leaders. But that only means it's been said. Now that we have exported our brand of democracy, they do not have a choice. And if they dare have a revolution, well maybe that is the reason there is a US military base in their country.

Think about it.

Kit, far be it from me to be an English teacher, but I know you to be intelligent and literate, as such I point out a minor mistake. The word species is singular, the plural is species'. The word specie is something else, it basically means money, or actually an agreed medium of exchange. Feel free to let me know if you catch me in an error. Also I realize that it may have just been a missed key. If that's the case just tell me to shutup.

Anyway, an empire is not all that well defined anymore. Sections of the empire with semi-autonomy or the illusion of autonomy are not necessarily discluded from what could be termed an empire. It may be the presence of our species on their soil, or it may be their government's addiction to our specie that subjugates them, but subjugated they are nonetheless.

The world is a big mess, if I were in charge I would leave it alone. And in the end I would want friendly relations, not with who was right, but with who was left. (non-political meaning).

When you see an Iraqi, do you see a possible insrgent terrorist or do you see someone who is hurting because he lost his family to American bombs ? It is all in the perspective. If not an empire, why all the military bases across the globe ?

Perspective is a funny thing. Why was the election by the people of a politically incorrect leader in Austria called "A slap in the face to democracy" ? Who are insurgents and who are freedom fighters ? Indeed who are the patriots ? Are they those who blindly follow the "leaders" ? or are they those who question everything, and do so in the context of "What good is this doing our country ?".

Fact of the matter is I would start a revolution if I thought it would work, but it won't. In fact I say to anyone with such ideas, don't even think about it.

The empire will fall just like the Romans. And it will basically rot from the inside out. I know that some of you must shield your virgin eyes from anything that is not politically correct, but nonetheless I would like to point out that in the book The Turner Diaries, the revolutionaries could never have accomplished what they did without co-opting people inside the government.

People ultimately make the fate. We allowed it to get to this point, and no I am not enough of a guru to say even what should have been done, much less what should be done now. We do not have the numbers nor the coherence to stand up to the tyrants and make any real change. Ron Paul offered a glimmer of hope but that proved to be a flash in the pan.

At this point all we can do is wait until the (non)empire collapses from it's own weight, and folks, I think most of us will live to see it happen. What to do about it ? Just about nothing. It is going to hurt, and the best thing you can do is to stockpile non-perishables, water, weapons and tools. Your money in the bank is going to become practically worthless.

I am not religious at all, but the guy who wrote Revelations was pretty smart and intuitive. I don't believe that he had any divine inspiration, but I think he had a good grasp on human nature and could see where it was heading. Can't buy or sell without the mark, try to rent a car without a credit card. Men shall seek death but not find it, ummmm Kevorkian got thrown in prison didn't he ?

In the words of George Carlin - They OWN you.

You shall submit your sons for their goals, and if they die in the war sorry, he was a good soldier and could have killed more people for us. They think no more of us than we think of those little plastic pieces that represent armies in a game of "Risk". If you've ever played Risk you know what I mean.

If you think I paint too bleak a picture of the world these days, I remind you that I understand how they are because a couple decades ago I used to be how they are. They are almost literally cutting open the goose that laid the golden eggs.

I know how they are, I understand them, and if someone has a few million laying around use it to buy me some time to have a debate with one of the Presidential candidates. When I was on the way up I could scratch and claw with the best of them, well not quite. I didn't get very much in the way of a claim to fame, I never reached that critical mass. But then I started alot lower on the totem pole so to speak.

But that was my old life, and God forbid that any of our politicians ever have an enlightenment. It took a near death experience for me. I would bet that if these politicians really became self aware, with their guilt load they would have to be institutionalized. A shame though, that they will never grow into real people. But they don't have to as long as they got that money.

But I'll be watching. Let me tell you this, I think Ron Paul would begin to dismantle at least part of the empire, but that does not mean I think he is enlightened ? He is not. You can't hold what he holds as his views on abortion and the rest of his ideology at the same time, most of which is libertarian in nature. Any politician against abortion should be forced to go dive into those dumpsters where they find the dead babies and retrieve the corpse. Do that a few ten twenty times and remain firm in your stand against abortion.

Go see the inequities in the countries where we prop up a government the people do not want. Learn the language, talk to the Man on the street. In some countries their dictator or whatever is just one of our minions.

Someone around here has a sig line that goes something like "It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilisation fall" and I would have to agree that we are in for a hell of a ride. I think their sig says "show" but it will be a ride, a ride down.

When someone wants to take over the world they get cohorts who also crave power. I must admit that the current crowd of them has gone farther than anyone else's in history. With changes in technology and their control over it they have almost got it done. I stand in awe of their accomplishments, I really do. Nobody has ever gotten this far, not even close.

When the empire grows, some of the "colonies" , for lack of a better word, must be given some dgree of autonomy to accomodate their culture, and to make the subjugation pallatable to the people. Two generations of no bombing usually does the traick, as long as you got a thumb on their government. Or would that be our goverrnment there ?

Those who know me know I pride myself on being able to other sides of issues, and in that quest I have found that not only are there two sides, two perspectives, there are actually more than two, sometimes there are many.

But at this time I am here to express my point of view, while I might argue against myserlf later on some point, which I do sometimes, not right now. Right now, it is an empire. That is my opinion.

This empire tries not to look like an empire, and it does a pretty good job. Subjugated states are allowed controlled elections just like us, and to the casual observer we come out smelling like a rose.

And folks, most people are casual observers because they lack the intelligence to see past the surface of issues. That is how they were taught. And this was by design.

Now I will say now that I specifically do not include most members of CM in that statement. I guess that's why I am here.

This is long enough for now. Be well or get well, whatever it takes.

T

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/10/2008 2:39:53 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		The United States most certainly has an empire. What do you call 100 and odd bases around the world and the overthrow of several governments in order to install puppet regimes? Imperialism is a different fish in the 21st century; economic colonisation is imperialism to all intents and purposes.

As for the United States losing their place in the world, the Chinese and Indians have a long way to go to usurp the US; they have the labour force, but they don't have the know-how.

I'd argue one point from the OP, "we had all the ideas"......more like "the United States had some of the ideas and had the money to buy ideas from elsewhere". You may be surprised at the number of ideas of English origin that were bought and turned into a product by the Americans (and the Japanese, too).

On the 20th century being the American century, I can see your point of view, but it was a century where Western dominance over Asia came to an abrupt end. The 20th Century is as well explained by the decline of Europe and the rise of Asia, as it is the success of the United States.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/10/2008 3:00:25 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

Only Americans believe that.


Well that's simply not true. 

quote:


Are you trying to say America doesn't control other countries? 


We influence other countries greatly; no doubt about that.  That's not an empire.  We have a worldwide sphere of influence, which began after the Second World War.  Before WWII our sphere of influence was mainly delegated to the Western Hemisphere, which is what the Monroe Doctrine was all about.  Yes we have military installations all over the world.  But those host countries can ask us to leave anytime they feel like it.  Of course, we will resist that and probably meddle a bit.  But most Western nations meddle in the affairs of other nations.  I am not saying it's right, but it does not fit into the definition of an empire. 

quote:

My parent's generation thought the sun shone out of the arse of Americans, they wouldn't hear a bad word said against America. However, subsequent generations have mixed feelings, more conservative types still think America is the light of the western world, many others think the US has over stayed its welcome when it became an empire. Left wing and liberal Europeans thought the war had ended imperialism in the west, it was disappointed to find the west had a new imperial power, this time in the shape of the USA. 


I am well aware others call our adventures in the world imperialism.  But calling a chicken a duck, does not a duck make.  The United States does not own any countries.  We are meddlesome, yes.  But we do not outright claim any other nation as a part of our territory.  That's an empire. 

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 3/10/2008 3:02:05 PM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 40
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