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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 6:27:10 PM

SixFootMaster

Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

FR to both of you [SixWhatever and xoxi]--edited for clarification

Can you honestly say that this is not your M.O.? Do you stir shit up and argue for the sake of argument? How many threads have you commandeered for this "exercise?" It's all in the archives. It's what you do and you should be ignored. What would jesus do? Hah.

Thanks for your thoughtful response to my and many others' thoughtful posts to the OP.

No, I don't. After wading through six pages of utter unadulterated self-congratulatory back-patting intolerant and abusive drivel from only a handful of antagonists, the last thing on my mind was to congratulate you on your post, lally3's post, and a couple of others that actually managed to be on topic.

I'm not here to "Stir shit up" but I'm not here to "tow the party line" either - I'm here to attempt to engage in rational and insightful, intelligent discussion. That means being able to support your point of view, and being willing to do so when challenged on it. The OP asked exactly what it was supposed to ask, and thank you for giving a reply that was on topic and worth reading.

But please, don't accuse US of starting the ruckus when it had already gone on for 5 or 6 pages by the time we started reading.

Six.

_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 161

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 6:34:48 PM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

Fine. I honestly state it. It's not true.

I've tried emailing you to resolve this but since you want to keep it public, here's the 2nd email I wrote to you. Boldness added for emphasis.

irst of all even though the thread was hijacked, I consider it to be a debate rather than a fight. I'm not calling names, and neither is the other side. We're presenting sourced information to back up our perspectives.

As far as what I get out of THAT, if I believe something strongly enough I will bother to back up my words with facts. I don't enjoy people insulting things I care about. If you look at the "fights" I've been in, they tend to start when someone insults something I care about - my religion, my Master, my morals, my lifestyle, etc. I defend what I care for.

Go ahead, please do search the archives for my posts. Aside from this thread, the more recent discussions I've been involved in was helping a girl in the Gor forums quit smoking and a friendly discussion about how we see our slavery in relation to other people. The only argument I've been in recently was a post where some douche randomly insulted my Master and said if he wasn't around the Sydney scene he was somehow inferior.

You don't know me, and you really can't analyse my motivations very well if you only pick and choose what to look at. If someone insults me or something I care about, I choose to respond rather than ignore. You can agree or disagree with that tactic, but know that I never insult anyone first. Every single 'argument' is a response and I know the archives will bear that out.

Search them if you want, but don't claim to know what's in them til you've read them ;)

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 162

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 6:35:07 PM

TracyTaken

Posts: 615
Joined: 2/1/2008
Status: offline

quote:

I didn't say you insulted me, genius. I said you insulted my beliefs. IE Christianity.
Should I go find the quotes, or does that clarification make enough sense?

Please do.

I have no objection to discussing this until the cows come home. I'm not the one whining at being a called a "shit-stirrer."

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 163

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 6:37:31 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

All right, stop, collaborate and listen!

This thread is meant to ask "How does YOUR religion affect or reflect in YOUR day to day life and your lifestyle" - this thread is entirely NOT about Christianity, it was started out of curiosity to see how other religions are reflected in the relationships of their practitioners.

Now that said, and for the record:

A religion is any system of beliefs and practices. Atheism is a religion, Agnosticism is not.

I'm Christian. I do however take the Bible quite literally when it says "God is infinite" - neither male nor female but possessing all characteristics and traits of both. The assignment of Father is a human one, just as the assignment of Goddess is. In my belief, Jesus did not become flesh just to tell everyone to be nice to each other, but explicitly to die, and in dying to rewrite the rules and open the way. Life is a burning searing forge of suffering and joy, what we do matters little, how we live our lives matters little. The end result will always be the same.

Six.

Now that is just plain silly....In order... Where does John Norman fall in amongst the prophets? Do you live your life in accordance to the teachings of Jesus or John?

Worshipping false idols doesn't pave ones way.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/10/2008 6:38:14 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to SixFootMaster)

Post #: 164

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 6:38:53 PM

SixFootMaster

Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Sigh. Like most dicussions of "religion", this has, sadly, become a circle jerk. That is because, imho, peeps become too attached to their opinions. Sometimes , as history has shown us, that can lead to killing, a damn lot of it.

I agree with subtee on this. Y'all need to get laid....well, not y'all, really, didn't mean to generalize. But, ya know who ya are.

No, I think Y'all covers it. Unfortunately, I'm at work.

I apologise for the ongoing ranting, just is a pet peeve when someone attacks my religion, particularly if they are just quoting the same-ol-same-ol, you know?

Anyway, to all forced to endure it, sorry for that, and maybe we can get the thread back on topic.

For the count:

I don't think my religion influences my relationships that much if at all, I just don't tend to think along those lines. Sure, it is in accord with the Bible, but that's more a case of coincidence rather than deliberate arrangement. My mother did always leave the final decision to my father, though in other respects the two were more or less equal - though he always got the lions share. Additionally, it was always made clear that it was HIS castle, not hers, despite the fact they both worked to pay for and build it. I couldn't speak to their motivation on that arrangement though.

Six.

_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to cjan)

Post #: 165

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 6:41:35 PM

SixFootMaster

Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

All right, stop, collaborate and listen!

This thread is meant to ask "How does YOUR religion affect or reflect in YOUR day to day life and your lifestyle" - this thread is entirely NOT about Christianity, it was started out of curiosity to see how other religions are reflected in the relationships of their practitioners.

Now that said, and for the record:

A religion is any system of beliefs and practices. Atheism is a religion, Agnosticism is not.

I'm Christian. I do however take the Bible quite literally when it says "God is infinite" - neither male nor female but possessing all characteristics and traits of both. The assignment of Father is a human one, just as the assignment of Goddess is. In my belief, Jesus did not become flesh just to tell everyone to be nice to each other, but explicitly to die, and in dying to rewrite the rules and open the way. Life is a burning searing forge of suffering and joy, what we do matters little, how we live our lives matters little. The end result will always be the same.

Six.

Now that is just plain silly....In order... Where does John Norman fall in amongst the prophets? Do you live your life in accordance to the teachings of Jesus or John?

Worshipping false idols doesn't pave ones way.

It's a good question domiguy, but a misguided one. I'm not Gorean, and I don't follow or worship Norman in any particular way other than someone who had some insight into various aspects of D/s relationships, and a great deal to say about personal responsibility, freedom, and integrity. I've never claimed to be a particularly good Christian either, though I do endeavor to be so.

Six.

_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 166

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 6:41:45 PM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

Sure no problem. You didn't quote the whole post, you just quoted the 'continuing to add insults' but that was in reference to this sentence in the part you didn't quote:

quote:

but TracyTaken kept saying she had the "right" to say what she wanted, and continued to insult my religion,

And as far as what you said to insult my religion...

quote:

It's my right to tell you that your belief is full of crap and not fit for consumption on this planet.

quote:

especially really destructive, hatefilled doctrine involving the abuse and murder of children and homosexuals, along with genocide, patricide, matricide and homocide in general. Then there's the lovely bit about the punishment for denying the "holy spirit" (eternity in hell).

quote:

"Religion is collective insanity and endlessly destructive."

Sound about right?

(in reply to TracyTaken)

Post #: 167

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 6:49:51 PM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

Fair enough. I feel like I've defended myself adequately.

One thing I was curious about was this post on page 1 by UKCouple4femsub:

quote:

To suggest that any form of pagan (of which there are many) worships any form of deity is misguided. Many of them feel that it is arrogant to suggest that any deity would be in the slightest bit interested in a meer mortal. Many of them also worship both male and female aspects of the divine. So there is no deity defined dominant role in a 'neo' pagan family. There again, ask a dozen different pagans what they believe, and you'll get 13 different answers

I'm guessing 'pagan' was the wrong word here...but aren't there Goddess-worship sects or religions? I know that there are some who worship Mother Earth, but others that worship avatars of pagan deities like Artemis or Isis.

I'm guessing though that a lot of pagan religions, similar to Buddhism, view both genders as inherently equal, without one as the leader and one as the supporter. Does that sound like an accurate assessment?

(in reply to lally3)

Post #: 168

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 6:52:47 PM

SixFootMaster

Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline

Hmm, going back a bit in time now, but I remember some of my friends referring to "The Lady and her Consort"... anyone got insight into that? Not sure which religion it refers to.

Six.

_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 169

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 6:56:16 PM

cjan

Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline

Thinking of John's tune... "Imagine".

Imagine ,no religion... nothing to kill or die for...etc.,...

R.I. P., John

< Message edited by cjan -- 3/10/2008 6:59:54 PM >

(in reply to SixFootMaster)

Post #: 170

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 7:02:15 PM

SixFootMaster

Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Thinking of John's tune... "Imagine".

Imagine ,no religion... nothing to kill or die for...etc.,...

R.I. P., John

Sadly, people will always find something to kill and die for, religion, resources, prestige, power, even national identity. As long as we think in terms of the individual, there will always be "me/you" and "them/us".

Six.

_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to cjan)

Post #: 171

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 7:18:15 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

The Bible states clearly that the natural order is for a wife to submit to her husband.

This assertion, from Paul (Saul of Tarsus), and the influence it has had on doctrine, is believed to be the reason 1 in 4 Christian homes have domestic abuse problems, which is higher than what you will find in atheist households, for instance. It's pretty solidly documented that Paul was a misogynist, so it's sad to see that his words have been given precedence over the words of the man he was charged with taking down. Paul did his job well, and his successors have kept up the good work.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 172

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 7:26:19 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Littlepita

I'm Christian and while I have many issues that need work and forgiveness, I do believe that my form of BDSM doesn't go against my religious beliefs.

Those locks on the corner of your head would be among those issues. Also, if the hair isn't naturally red in color, that would be another one of those issues. Let's not forget that depilation is pretty much frowned upon, too, so I hope you don't do that, either. And you couldn't possibly be pretending not to be unclean during that time of the month, I hope, just as your husband hopefully remembers to stay away after orgasm. He is your husband, right?

Divine and inspired word my ass. 5 texts edited into the Torah, various versions of the rest of the Old Testament, and a thousand years to decide what texts go into the NT and what texts do not, with the major factions having agreed to disagree on the topic. Let's not forget shepherding little lost seal babies, 'cuz they don't have lambs up wherever. I'm sure the symbolism is exactly the same. It's divine and inspired, after all.

Tell you what, the last time I listened to another priest, "divine and inspired" is not what his recital sounded like; soulless is more like it.

And I certainly was not inspired to anything so much as to send him off to Azazyel and finish the baptism myself.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Littlepita)

Post #: 173

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 7:31:02 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

The Bible also states that you must kill homosexuals. If that's the divine and inspired word of god, God can kiss my ass.

That's because the Jews needed customs that would isolate them from the Canaanites, so that they wouldn't be subsumed into their culture and lose their identity. The Canaanites practiced incest, LGBT, poly, bestiality, and a bunch of other stuff. These were conveniently used as points to differentiate the Jews. Later authors and humanists have continued to build on the restrictions introduced there, and more recently some have started deconstructing those norms again.

Hopefully, people will eventually realize that the Jewish identity is firmly established, and that Canaan is dust.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to topcat)

Post #: 174

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 7:34:40 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CarrieO

New book for the new church, or so I was told.

Gospel of Matthew, cliff notes version:

"Until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished."

Unless the 2nd Coming happened while I wasn't looking (in which case God abandoned us), the Torah stands.

Note that the Gospel of Matthew is on solid ground: it's the least disputed text.

If anything in the New Testament holds, this passage holds.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to CarrieO)

Post #: 175

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 7:43:04 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubbieOnWheels

* Eve acknowledged that she was tempted by the serpent. Adam blamed both Eve and God ("the woman you gave me"). That doesn't make him equal to either Eve or God in my book.

Eve was the inferior woman that served as a pacifier when Adam and Lilith couldn't work out their differences and couldn't agree who would be the dominant party. Some suggest she was miffed that he made out with whatever else was handy in the garden, which makes sense (this was before the apple, remember?).

However, all of this derives from the J-source, if memory serves, not the E-source. Bear in mind that the tale of the Garden of Eden is based on concatenating two different creation mythos. To loosely paraphrase another poster, in the E-source, we have a pretty benevolent creator who makes humans in the divine image, while in the J-source, we have a snake problem, and a figure that curses humanity to the end of our days. That theme repeats itself later, too, with אלוה ('Elwh) playing the "good God" and יהוה (YHWH) playing the "bad God."

Needless to say, the church latched on to the "bad God" for inspiration ...
... the one who, in BDSM terms, is simply a crappy Dom.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to SubbieOnWheels)

Post #: 176

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 7:48:07 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Oh goodie - another thread where christians have to defend themselves.

As a pious Christian, in fact a priest by the old standard of the term, I see no need to defend myself.

What does need defending, but for which few defenses work, are prevailing interpretations.

It gets a lot easier if you start with life, and simply ask "how does God fit in?"

The other way around is putting a cart in front of a dead horse.

quote:

Serious question though - why is it that when a religon thread rears it's head, and a variety of religons respond - that the christians or muslims end up on the list of the hate-mongers?

Because people do not want to face up to the fact that these are human flaws.

It's always easier to face the idea that they did it, than the idea that we did it, whatever "it" is.

Health,
al-Aswad.

Edit: Messed up the font.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 3/10/2008 7:55:51 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 177

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 7:52:57 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubbieOnWheels

Excuse me, but all this lovely discourse seems to have drifted away from the OP's original question. I interpret the question to be, "Is it consistent with practicing Christianity for the woman to be the dominant in a D/s dynamic?"

The question might just as well be "is it consistent with practicing Christianity for the woman to play golf?"

Whatever comes naturally to the couple in question is basically consistent, unless you listen to Paul.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to SubbieOnWheels)

Post #: 178

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 8:02:29 PM

SixFootMaster

Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

It's always easier to face the idea that they did it, than the idea that we did it, whatever "it" is.

An interesting point - "we" collectively are responsible for everything that "we" have ever done. It is preferable, easier definitely, to think that the people that committed those acts did so because of some irrational belief, warped doctrine, some impulse we can disassociate ourselves from, rather than admit that such flaws exist universally in humanity, in the human condition, and inevitably rise to expression. This - to me - is the fallacy of "what if there was no religion" since those flaws that drive man to pervert religion as a vehicle for an agenda, would find another vehicle in absence of that one.

Six.

_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 179

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 8:46:27 PM

ModeratorEleven

Posts: 2007
Joined: 8/14/2005
Status: offline

Ok folks. There has been a bit of cleanup here. Please leave the personal attacks at the door. If you can't participate here without attacking other people, find someplace else to spend your time. Those who continue in that behavior will be removed.

XI

_____________________________

This mod goes to eleven.

(in reply to SixFootMaster)

Post #: 180

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