RE: makeup or no makeup

RE: makeup or no makeup (Full Version)

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FLButtSlut -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/26/2005 9:36:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2 quote: ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut Both can make a woman feel self conscious about her appearance, but I bet none of you would dispute her desire to have reconstruction surgery because it made her feel better about herself. No one is disputing her desire. In fact we're all encouraging her to really sort out and examine her desires. But we are saying that there is a choice here- stick with your desires, or submit them to the authority of the dominant. Either choice is acceptable and its up to her to decide which is the best for her well-being in the long term. But it is a choice. Actually, the point is that this is not something about a desire to begin with. What everyone on here is doing for the most part is taking the position that "master" has his reasons, and you as the ignorant, uninformed sub just have to do what he says and trust that he is wiser than you. quote: ORIGINAL: perverseangelic Maybe it -would- be a good idea to think about what areas of your life could be control if your dominant partner sees fit. It's always a good idea to realistically know what you don't want someone to tell you to do. Another example--I refuse to change my religious practice. It is realistic to think my partner could ask that. We've agreed that he will not controll that aspect of my life. As new things arise, we either talk about them, or I do what he wants. I think very few people here do not consider what areas of their life they will transfer control of or not. Your example regarding your religion was most likely only brought up because likely you are of different religions. Think about it. Let's for a moment say you are Catholic (I have no idea, just picked the first one that popped in my head). If during your initial "getting to know you" phase, you discover he is also Catholic, you have no logical reason to think that he would ask you to change your religion, so it would not get discussed further. Therefore, when he has an epiphany one night and decides that he would like to become an evangelic christian, and tells you to become one as well, it is an unrealistic expecation on HIS part. It isn't an issue because YOU didn't list it as a "hard limit". There is a world of difference. There are things that during that phase, are discussed, but no limit set because it appears unnecessary. Such as my contact lenses. Unless I am given reason to believe they might become an issue later down the road, I'm not going to sit and tell someone that they can never ask me to wear my glasses over my contacts, it would be ridiculous. As it is, there are enough posts on here poking fun and flaming people who list other hard limits, if we need to start listing every possible thing that could potentially come up, it is going to be nothing more than fodder for a bunch of people to then piss and moan about that. By the way, she didn't say she doesn't "want to do this", she firmly told him "I won't do this" which while maybe not as submissively correct as some might find appropriate is definately saying to him that he does not have control in that area.

Focus50 -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 4:45:18 AM)
It's unfortunate that this rather enthralling question continues to get derailed because of a confused perception of "makeup".... Like most people my age, I've had to endure the shock of a sudden and life-changing affliction. It's damned scary to have to come to grips with a loss of something always taken for granted and consequent realisation you'll NEVER have it back again in your life - ever! Some things are way above BDSM and I think the OP's Master needs to back off and reassess his own need and reasons for this particular demand. To me, it sounds like nothing more than an amateur attempt at psychological healing through the use of flawed reverse logic. I.E. Only sick people take pills so if they stop taking their pills, they're no longer sick.... sheesh Lucky for you that you didn't become a wheelchair-bound paraplegic; he'd probably insist on you learning to live without the chair, too! Being someone's Master does NOT make you a God or even just their God! I make the rules in my relationships and I expect them to be obeyed. Even if there wasn't an agreed limit at the outset, circumstances can change and, frankly, I'll respect any limit that has a genuine reason such as the OP's. To me, it's totally immature of her Dom to insist on this for no other apparent reason than an implied right of ownership. To risk destroying an otherwise happy relationship in order to demonstrate who's in charge is lunacy. This isn't makeup to satisfy a vain woman's vanity, it's makeup as a genuine aid to function in the outside world without drawing undue attention! Hell, I recall once prematurely removing an annoying eye patch because my sore eye drew less attention than the patch did! It's normal to feel self-conscious when you're obviously "different" to most! Personally, I think an obvious compromise would be to forgo the makeup in the privacy of your own home or when it's just the two of you - IF it's really that big a deal to him! In the outside World, Master never does or ever will walk in your shoes and it'd do both of you proud to let this one go.... Can't wait for the over-simplified "sub's really in charge" comments again.... yawn Focus51.

IronBear -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 8:34:30 AM)
If I told a kajira in my collar that camel dung was ideal for beauty care, you can bet a gooses fart to a clap of thunder that the forst thing out of her mouth would be to ask "wet or dry" and when told dry and the older the better, I could guarantee that she's be off with a basket cathering camel dung (assume I have camels). The only other questions I would expect would be "How do I use it?" and "How do I prepare it?" NOTE: dried dung is an excelent exfolient or loofa whan used without water (for obvious reasons). However we wont go into the mater of scent at this time..... Point is regarding any kajira in my collar (House or personal) will be informed what she may or may noy use as far as cosmetics and clothes are concurned. The fact that I may use Eaude d'Sleen is of no importance.

DesertRat -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 8:46:32 AM)
The OP is not talking about mere "beauty care", IronBear; it's not quite so trivial as you seem to think. She also doesn't claim to be Gorean, so there is more room for negotiation in their relationship. Bob

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 8:50:01 AM)
It's not necessarily a gorean issue, many M/s relationships have no compromise in their orders and dynamics, and I know goreans who DO have discussions with their slaves and some tolerance for compromise (let's not start the whole "they aren't TRUE goreans" thing). She has a choice, she gets to choose what will make her fulfilled in the long term.

IronBear -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 9:06:14 AM)
quote: The OP is not talking about mere "beauty care", IronBear; it's not quite so trivial as you seem to think. She also doesn't claim to be Gorean, so there is more room for negotiation in their relationship. Bob Interestingly enough Bob, I read the entire thread. I simply choose not to enter into some discussions with a long face as though the world was about to end. My comments were a fact for me and my home. That we are Gorean makes no difference except that such views I express will mostly be of a personal perception. In fact I could introduce you to a bloke whose girls do use dread camel dung as a form of exfoliation. As for the rest of my comment it is exactly what I said. I will determine if and what a trik of mine will where, or not wear etc. However never once have I stated that everyone should follow my lead I respect each relationship on its merrits. perhaps i missed something which said that there shall be no Gorean orientated posts to this thread.

perverseangelic -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 10:37:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut I think very few people here do not consider what areas of their life they will transfer control of or not. Your example regarding your religion was most likely only brought up because likely you are of different religions. Think about it. Let's for a moment say you are Catholic (I have no idea, just picked the first one that popped in my head). If during your initial "getting to know you" phase, you discover he is also Catholic, you have no logical reason to think that he would ask you to change your religion, so it would not get discussed further. Therefore, when he has an epiphany one night and decides that he would like to become an evangelic christian, and tells you to become one as well, it is an unrealistic expecation on HIS part. It isn't an issue because YOU didn't list it as a "hard limit". There is a world of difference. I disagree here, still. I'm not saying one needs to outline every eventuality, however, even if one appears to share veiws on some subjects, one needs to aknowledge that as someone who is owned s/he might be expected to change, as the owner changes. I didn't say something like "You must always let me practice witchcraft."--a very spesific thing which may or may not change. I said that I did not want him to exert control over my religious practice, in any circumstances, regardless of any changes we both go through. Instead of planning for -one- change, one is examining the areas of ones life one needs to be in control of to be a happy and productive person. This is a lot different than thinking of every possible circumstance. quote: There are things that during that phase, are discussed, but no limit set because it appears unnecessary. Such as my contact lenses. Unless I am given reason to believe they might become an issue later down the road, I'm not going to sit and tell someone that they can never ask me to wear my glasses over my contacts, it would be ridiculous. Again, one needs to decide about entire areas of ones life, not just spesific things. With the glasses/contacts thing, it -is- necessary to decide if one's owner has the right to make changes to appearance, if they don't interfear with life. This is how I'd veiw a glasses/contacts thing. Does one's owner have the right to change one's appearance as s/he sees fit if it doesn't get in the way of one's productivity? If so, in what circumstances? If not, in what areas of appearance -does- s/he have control? It isn't about saying "You can't tell me to wear my hair in a 2/3 pony tail and dye it purple" ie a very spesific circumstance which you couldn't forsee. It -is- about saying "Youc annot change my apperance in a way that will make me unable to go to work." I'm not sure if I'm clarifying the difference as I see it well. One requires the submissive person to be psychic. The other requires them to be realistic in their understanding of the controll that could conceivably be exerted. quote: As it is, there are enough posts on here poking fun and flaming people who list other hard limits, if we need to start listing every possible thing that could potentially come up, it is going to be nothing more than fodder for a bunch of people to then piss and moan about that. I don't criticize people's hard limits. I hvae some weird ones myself. I -do- critique the wyas they are expressed to the dominant person in question, because sometimes submissive people are really confusing. We say "take controll" and only later, when we're asked to do something we dislike say "well, not there!" quote: By the way, she didn't say she doesn't "want to do this", she firmly told him "I won't do this" which while maybe not as submissively correct as some might find appropriate is definately saying to him that he does not have control in that area. I understand that. However, it didn't seem that the dominant person in question understood that. And I think it -is- different than saying that one doesnt' want control in that area. One -sounds- (though I know isn't) like simple disobedience. The other sounds like a renegotiation of the terms of a relationship. To me, it's like refusing to be tied up when your dominant person request it, and saying "no, I won't do that" versus sitting down and saying "I am uncomfortable with being tied up lately, and would like to remove that from the activities that we engage in." Maybe it sounds like semantics, but from my interaction with others it seems that the second one is much clearer and much less likely to raise the "s/he disobeyed I must punish" response which we say that we -want- our dominant people to possess.

mnottertail -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 5:21:37 PM)
So Maybe can way the many issues and consider what's in her. And what could be wrong with that. I wish you well Maybe. Whatever your choice; and I believe you understand that. Ron

IronBear -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 5:47:43 PM)
I know several Masters who in similar situations will follow the agreement to the LETTER, and not the SPIRIT of the agreement. sad really, which is why I question their relationships. Perhaps I can give an example from my owm home and again we'll assume I have a kajira in a collar. The difference in my Gorean home where the only limits are those I impose. Now for a practical perspective, lets assume that I have a kajira who is working, provided that she is not being abused at work or by the system, I will do nothing to impede her working activities (Not the work related social ones – these I do control). If there are problems I will work through things with her just as I do with my wife and if necessary pull the plug on the job for her own good (after an in depth discussion with her), and proceed to help her find a replacement one…. However, if she has a professional career, I value such things too much to even contemplate interfering with it. She will have my support and encouragement. Only if the career threatens to infringe into our home and relationship will I speak out. Because of the ever evolving dynamics of such relationships, I am also aware that she may at some stage desire being released to further her career. Such things happen.

sultryvoice -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 5:54:50 PM)
I suppose I see this from a different perspective. She may not have said it bluntly, but make-up is a hard limit. She stated it all along and he knew that. Yet, he put that order on her. He isn't a psychologist or psychiatrist. Things like this can damage a person's psyche. Vanity is not that bad of a thing. We all have it in one way or another. And, don't say you don't..Someone can be vain on looks, intelligence and so forth. As for demanding to go without makeup, I wouldn't obey that one. And for the record, I only wear makeup when I am dressed up. Rarely do I wear it everyday.. I'm lazy, I suppose or at my age, I am who I am..take it or leave it..lol.... Respectfully, sultry

nephandi -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 6:23:41 PM)
i have in my contract that my Master can not interfere whit my occult study or force me to stop practicing witchcraft, and the reason he can not? it was agreed upon before we enterd the relationship. i also know he hates nail polish, now i have horrible toe nail, they are miscolord so i paint them black or purble or even orange, now that he let me paint my tonails is not a right it is a gift from him and he could order me not to. Why? becouse my contract do not say and you may not make me stop using nail polish. While i personaly might urge the Master of the OP to let her use makeup since it means so mutch to her, if she is a slave, and she dont have it in the contract she dont realy have the right to refuse obeying orders. She can talk aboute it, beg him to let her continue using makeup but basicaly you then have two choices, either acept of stop being a slave. Be careful what go into thoose contracts my frinds, for somtimes being a slave sucks.

maybemaybenot -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 8:16:21 PM)
I have been avoiding my own thread. I'm skeered !! LOL. < j/k > I think I opened a perverbial Pandora's box and much of the thread has roller coasted into a debate of lifestyle protocols, D/s, M/s roles and so much more. That was never my intent. I have been trying to answer many of the posts in e mail form as not to clutter up and fuel the fire, so to speak. Let me just say... and this is soley the opinion of the OP < me>.... This is not a matter of who is right and who is wrong. This isn't about Good Dominant/Bad Dominant vs Good submissive/bad submissive. It's not a matter of winning the big prize. For me, it is about inconsistant behavior of a Dominant. As many have said, it is hard to get into other folks relationships with out both sides and without all the facts. True enough. My OP was written in an attempt to give the basic facts, be concise about it and direct with out re creating my version of War and Peace. Much of the discussion has been about Hard Limits. I can see that. I can agree with IronBear.... if you follow the letter of the law, not the spirit, I should have been more precise and added this to the list. But if you look at on face value and don' t try and manipulate the facts, I was extremely clear about my use of make up. As I have told some in my e mails, I did set a hard limit in regards to my profession. It was that he could not interfere/control my professional life. He is contending that not wearing make up has no effect on my profession. I will still own my business and I will still be a corporate travel agent. He sees this as a matter of controling appearance. Debateable ?? Sure it is... but for me.. presenting myself in a positive way IS part of my profession. And I believe I have the right to decide what is positive in matters of my career. For those who say I also said public, yes, I did. Not career related, but as I said " I will not" means I will not. And to any one who lives in a bubble, when you go out socially you invariably run into people you know from work, or clients if that be your career. So is my stand debateable? Yes, it is. To give one more example of what I consider inconsistant behavior and to me is very puzzeling.. Early on he asked me to change the brand of make up I use. He liked this particular brand better and believed it was a better product. I began using the product he preferred and I love it. He was quite tickled with himself when I told him he was more experienced in make up than I, and teasingly chided him about the possibility he was hiding his CD ing side. To me.. that showed a concern and an interest about something that I put importance on. It shows support. I am saying these two things to point out where I am confused and I feel I am not being ridiculous at all. And/or why I feel he understood the intent of my " limit". I should have put it in the OP.. but as I said;... I was trying to be concise. Do we need to talk further, yes we do. I opened up my own situation in a public forum, as I said for affirmation that I was not being " ridiculous". Some think I am not, some think I am. But I have gotten lots of good thoughts, lots of good input, on both sides. It has helped me stay grounded and helped me open a wider discussion than has already taken place. It's kind of funny, I was perusing the forum and came across a thread that asked the question.. would you shave your head if your Master told you to. Almost everyone answered in the affirmative. With lots and lots of disclaimers. Only if I could wear a wig to work. I would but he would never ask, he likes to pull my hair. I would but I know he would never do that he loves long hair so on and so forth. My point being. It is very easy to answer a question in the affirmative, accepted submissive protocol when there is no chance it will happen to you. Or at least you don't think so. I am not criticizing or saying that any one was being dishonest. It was an observation. I said it somewhere else... everyones reality is based on their own experience. As for you, mnottertail..... yes, I do understand. And a big ol ~ wink~ right atcha !!!!! maybemaybenot

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 8:18:21 PM)
Isn't that why he actually suggested a compromise/staggered setting of this change to allow you to do it at the house and in solely social situations at first?

OsideGirl -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 8:27:59 PM)
I think a lot of people are taking this lightly because it's about make up. So, let's change the context. Let's say that she had bone cancer that required that she have her lower leg amputated and she now uses a prosthesis. Her Dominant tells her that going out inpublic without the prosthesis will teach her humility. So, now you're saying that different because an amputation is a disability. For anyone that thinks that having a face that does not fit what society deems as the "norm" is not a disability, I suggest you try it. Years ago my mother had major orthodontic surgery. The surgery left her bruised from her breasts up to her eyes and she had her jaw wired shut. People would glance at her and then look away, only to look back, point and whisper when my mother wasn't looking their way. Service people wouldn't talk to her, instead they'd talk to all of us like she couldn't understand. After two weeks my mother started to refuse to leave the house because of how crappy people treated her. There's a difference between a Dominant ordering his submissive to do something that is uncomfortable for her and ordering a submissive to do something that is psychologically damaging to her. Only she and her Dominant can determine where this fits for her.

Evanesce -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 8:31:52 PM)
quote: It's kind of funny, I was perusing the forum and came across a thread that asked the question.. would you shave your head if your Master told you to. Almost everyone answered in the affirmative. With lots and lots of disclaimers. Only if I could wear a wig to work. I would but he would never ask, he likes to pull my hair. I would but I know he would never do that he loves long hair so on and so forth. My point being. It is very easy to answer a question in the affirmative, accepted submissive protocol when there is no chance it will happen to you. Or at least you don't think so. I am not criticizing or saying that any one was being dishonest. It was an observation. I said it somewhere else... everyones reality is based on their own experience. Wow... too bad I missed that thread, 'cause my Master WOULD shave my head. He may be a truck driver, but He also holds a cosmetology license, and what my hair looks like (and what clothing I wear) is dictated by Him and Him alone. If He wants to shave me bald, He will do so. Denise the Kaptin's wench

nephandi -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 8:46:33 PM)
i dont see it as being different whit an protesis, if the Master say jump around in public the slave had her order, protesis, make up whatever the Master have final word.

maybemaybenot -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/27/2005 9:24:28 PM)
No, EmeraldSlave that is not an accurate account of my post. I have clearly stated and re stated that I ALREADY do not wear make up at home, with friends, his and mine and with family members. That was not by request that was because I am not socially uncomfortable in that situation. I even go to the beach without make up, because to do so IMO would appear silly looking. I am not a prissy little queen who sits on her thrown with a mirror in hand asking " who's the fairest in the land". He also did not suggest a compromise, he said he wanted me to begin the transition by going out shopping etc. Key word being " begin". A compromise indicates something that is mutually satisfactory to both parties. We all know my position. We all have different expectations of our Dominants. If you accept someone who is inconsistant and wants to split hairs and be on his guard for where he can trip you up and pull the rug out from under you, well that is your choice and I would support it. If social discomfort is your thing, who am I to judge you. If your Owner chooses to tatoo an American Eagle on your face, it's your < collective> thing not mine. You are young, you may not realize the impact an illness or fallout from an illness can have on a person. I was a nurse in my younger years, I learned never to judge how some one handles their own plight. I learned that everyone has their own coping mechinisms for dealing with what they percieve as " control over an illness". And if I think it is healthy or not is of little consequence, it is how it makes them feel, how it makes then function in the world. This is not a vanilla or lifestyle thing, it is a human being thing. In my world a Dominant, < not even a Dominant, a true partner > doesn't mess with things that he has absolutely no experience with. He may suggest things, he may give examples of a better way.. but ultimately how I choose to deal with blotches on my face, is my decision. This is not something we went thru together.. He got me this way, more importantly he ACCEPTED me this way... he knew the score.. he knew my stand. Osidegirl makes some very valid points... Let me add another scenario.... A submissive is an incest survivor at the hands of her father. She tells him from day one.. she "will not" call anyone " Daddy", he agrees and supports her. She does not write this down on her hard limits list, because it is understood. Fast forward to the day said Dominant decides she needs a little humility about her incest experience.. and that he feels her refusal to use Daddy is not a very good coping mechinism.. So from here on out he orders her to call him " Daddy".. She claims she said she wouldn't do it, he says OK.. we will start by you calling me Poppa. Following your reason, he is doing something he sees as good for her, and he feels he has a right to do and she should at least give it a try.. what the heck... she is a submissive and he isn't exactly asking her to do something she said she would not do. He has the old " outclause".. "Poppa" wasn't on the limits list. As OsideGirl said.. people dismiss it because of make up. it is not make up.. it is the use of make up to cover a physical " scarring" and about ones < mine> well being. Not everything in life is as simplistic as.....He's the Dominant, he must know what's best for her. maybemaybenot

nephandi -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/28/2005 2:57:18 AM)
Ok OP let me ask you this becouse i am not sure are you a submissive or a slave, if you are a submissive you tell him you will not stop using makeup, it is to inportant to you and you need to renegotiate your relationship to protect that thing that is inportant, if you are a slave you have no choice but to acept it.

Focus50 -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/28/2005 3:04:17 AM)
Yanno maybemaybenot, if your reaction to this affliction was to just shut yourself away from the outside world and only go out at night etc, then I'd say you had an unhealthy attitude that I (if I were your Master) would want you to face and deal with! I'm "gob-smacked" that both your Master and some people on this board can't see that you ARE dealing with it in a simple, sensible fashion that allows you to function as your usual confident self. Nothing reminds you that you're flawed or damaged like being stared at or constantly having to explain to strangers! I'm certainly not ashamed of my Dom sexuality but I don't let on to all and sundry either - because I don't wanna be forever explaining or justifying to the ignorant or nosey.... Indeed, in one small way I envy your predicament in that you have that option to be close to your "normal" self again.... My affliction is not visually noticeable but there is no cure and, seven years later, I'm still battling to come to terms with the consequences. Clearly there are many here who have yet to face a catastrophic, life-altering event and I find it incredibly ignorant of some to try and reduce yours to a simple "whatever Master wants" scenario. And I'm still shaking my head about those who think it's just about face paint or getting dressed up.... sheesh again! Focus51.

mistoferin -> RE: makeup or no makeup (9/28/2005 6:35:08 AM)
quote: Clearly there are many here who have yet to face a catastrophic, life-altering event and I find it incredibly ignorant of some to try and reduce yours to a simple "whatever Master wants" scenario. And I'm still shaking my head about those who think it's just about face paint or getting dressed up.... Not everyone here is looking at this from such a simple viewpoint. I too have dealt with a life altering, catastrophic illness that I was told repeatedly I would not survive. I understand full well the role that mindset plays in recovery. I have also had the experience for several years in my life of having my face appear completely different than most and have had to deal with the looks and stares and questions. I am legally blind in one eye and for several years had to wear a patch over my good eye in an attempt to strengthen and save the bad one. Let me tell you, there is nothing quite like an eye patch to draw attention. So please don't think that everyone here thinks it's just about make up, vanity or even about contracts and roles. When I was at my most dire points in my illness, people would come to me and ask how I was doing. My pat answer was "I'm fine". Hell, I was always fine. Still am today regardless of what I have going on. We tend to put on that happy mask to the world, sometimes so that we can spare them of the truth, sometimes because it makes it easier for ourselves to deal with the truth. If I keep saying I am fine then maybe I just might start believing it myself and that may lead to me really being fine right? Most people took "I'm fine" at face value....a few saw through to the truth. I responded to maybemaybenot's post in the manner that I did because I saw something in her words that told me that she really is not "fine". Maybe that is because I have been there, maybe it is because as a counselor I was trained to look for those types of subtle little clues. Now don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say that there is anything wrong with her and how she is dealing with what she has to deal with. Actually, I think that she is doing remarkably well and if she presented in any other manner I would really begin to question things much more. What I am trying to say is that I perceived a somewhat mixed message and that if I perceived it, could it not be possible that it may be the same message that her Dominant is receiving? It seems to be that she is so loudly proclaiming to him that she is "fine" with it all that it could just be making him see the "unfineness" even more clearly. Hence my suggestion for a more soul baring communication between them. Possibly that could lead to him having a better understanding that he is pushing in an area that he is really not qualified to push in. I think that maybemaybenot has to do what is ultimately going to be the right thing for her and only she can truly know what that will be. I don't envy her position even a little. It appears this may be the make-it-or-break-it issue that may tear apart a relationship that is otherwise ok. It is also possible that this is just an issue that is bringing into the light some aspects of the relationship that she is realizing that she can not or does not wish to have in a relationship that she wishes to be in for the long term. Either way, it is she who will ultimately have to make those types of decisions. While we can offer opinions and advice it is just impossible for us to decide what is right for her.

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