RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue

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pahunkboy -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 6:16:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: If every vote counts- then who in the right mind would schedule the primary on a date which does NOT count? Whoever scheduled the primary- blunderred. Pennsylvania asked to move up its primary. Was told no. And did not. The rules are the rules. The "whoever" in each case is the state legislature. Did they act prudently in changing their primary dates? With respect to the DNC, apparently they did not. However, the DNC's response to the imprudent actions of the Florida and Michigan legislatures effectively denies the citizens of both states a voice in selecting the Democratic nominee for President. Is that a proportionate and prudent response to an action over which the voters in each state had little if any practical control? I'm sure voters in Florida will be most reassured by your rhetoric of "the rules are the rules." Had the rules in FL been followed the 2000 election would have elected Gore. Elections happen as a matter of routine. We knew it was coming. we know there are rules. Why is anyone surprised by this? We have rules for a purpose. So everyone knows the guidelines. The 2 states blunderred, now they must live with it. Candidate A or candidate B, might have an advantage to a re-do. So here the masses will pay for yet another legislative blunder. The boat has sailed. They are not on that boat. Rather then moaning about the primary -all- should be double-checking the system for November. To answere your post- yes. The rules are the rules.

Owner59 -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 6:20:04 AM)
Lots of myths and mis-understandings going about. This isn`t a DNC problem(or RNC).The N in DNC stands for 'national'. What happened in Florida was a 'state' committee problem and was started,carried out and finished by Florida`s republican legislature and republican governor.This was a result of all of the state`s competitions over this silly primary date shuffle. The democrats had nothing to do with it,either at a state level or a national level. But they have to deal with the mess(as usual) and will,but within the established rules. Dean has said several times that he (as well as the DNC) won`t intervene.He would rather it get hashed out in court with everyone getting an equal hearing/judgment.That`s the fairest way to settle it. The voter`s rights trump the party`s or any one individual.The courts will hold the rights of voters(to have their votes counted) higher than a party or a candidate. Dean will not change the rules midway into the game.These aren`t republicans, after all. As far as Michigan is concerned,Obama was already on the ballot there but withdrew his name from it.It was a bad calculation on his part and something he(and the others) didn`t have to do,but did. Hillary was on the Michigan state ballot (as well as the rest)but never took her name off,like the rest did. Again,someone neutral will have to hash out what happens in Michigan,not party officials nor Dr.John Dean. This is only an issue b/c the race is so tight and an example of how it`s impossible to make a rule/fix/caveat for every single contingency that ever happens. There`s over a hundred different state parties/committees (both Rep.& Dem)and over a hundred different sets of state primary rules.Add to that the national committees/rules and you have a very diverse and not un-complicated nomination system. Those that are claiming un-fairness,that it`s "fixed" or that anyone`s being favored are at best un-informed or at worst,are just meddling republicans with to much free time.

orfunboi -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 6:42:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I'd be more sanguine if people who aren't democrats would butt out of party business. This is Presidential politics. It's AMERICAN business. Nope. This is democratic party business. We make the rules. We cast the votes. You're welcome to poke your nose in it as soon as I'm welcome to start poking around in how the various state GOP's change their primary rules every 4 years in an attempt to favor their prefered candidate. Of course I could start posting the ballot access rules the GOP has that prevent candidates they don't approve of from ever even getting on the ballot. Why did Colbert only try and get on the democratic ballot in SC? I already know the answer but its really none of my business so I have stayed out of it. Just as this matter is none of your business. Then let the DNC pay for the new election or tell them to STFU. Not sure why you are so concerned with the MI and FL ballots though, when you said above that SC was none of your business.

Archer -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 7:15:17 AM)
Owner you missed the one single peteinent fact that makes this a self inflicted wound for the Florida State Democratic Party. Jeremy Ring, Democrat Broward County Introduced the bill to move the Primary. So your statement that it was started by republicans is a false statement. Now I'm not sure if the statement is made simply not knowing the facts, or if it was an attempt to spin the story. However the Florida Congressional record can be used to prove that it was in fact started by Jeremy Ring D (Broward County)

DomKen -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 7:45:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: orfunboi quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I'd be more sanguine if people who aren't democrats would butt out of party business. This is Presidential politics. It's AMERICAN business. Nope. This is democratic party business. We make the rules. We cast the votes. You're welcome to poke your nose in it as soon as I'm welcome to start poking around in how the various state GOP's change their primary rules every 4 years in an attempt to favor their prefered candidate. Of course I could start posting the ballot access rules the GOP has that prevent candidates they don't approve of from ever even getting on the ballot. Why did Colbert only try and get on the democratic ballot in SC? I already know the answer but its really none of my business so I have stayed out of it. Just as this matter is none of your business. Then let the DNC pay for the new election or tell them to STFU. Not sure why you are so concerned with the MI and FL ballots though, when you said above that SC was none of your business. I said the SC GOP process was none of my business as a Democrat. However now that the shit is being stirred by my friends in the GOP I'll be sure to bring up those unpleasant facts the next time someone starts whining about the Democrats.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 8:21:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 This isn`t a DNC problem(or RNC).The N in DNC stands for 'national'. This being the prelude to a national contest, it most assuredly IS a DNC problem. quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 What happened in Florida was a 'state' committee problem and was started,carried out and finished by Florida`s republican legislature and republican governor.This was a result of all of the state`s competitions over this silly primary date shuffle. The democrats had nothing to do with it,either at a state level or a national level. The DNC did not have a hand in the rules violation. The DNC did have a hand in meting out the punishment. quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Dean has said several times that he (as well as the DNC) won`t intervene.He would rather it get hashed out in court with everyone getting an equal hearing/judgment.That`s the fairest way to settle it. Courts settling election disputes is a delicate business at best. Conceptually it might seem fair, but oftentimes the results are perceived quite differently. Florida 2000 is the perfect example. quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 The voter`s rights trump the party`s or any one individual.The courts will hold the rights of voters(to have their votes counted) higher than a party or a candidate. Doesn't this argue in favor of seating the delegates? quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Dean will not change the rules midway into the game.These aren`t republicans, after all. Dean's already changed the rules, by suggesting "do overs". quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 This is only an issue b/c the race is so tight and an example of how it`s impossible to make a rule/fix/caveat for every single contingency that ever happens. That's disingenuous. How much perception is required to realize that stripping a state of ALL its delegates could be seen down the road as overreaching? The RNC faced the exact same dilemma and responded by reducing the delegations by half. The states' influence in the nominating process was diminished but the voters retained their voice. A moderate response WAS possible by the DNC; Howard Dean opted for an immoderate response, and now the Democratic Party has to contend with the consequences. quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Those that are claiming un-fairness,that it`s "fixed" or that anyone`s being favored are at best un-informed or at worst,are just meddling republicans with to much free time. It definitely is not "fixed"--"fucked" is a far more accurate description. No one is favored right now that I can see. It's a lose-lose situation all the way around.

Gwynvyd -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 5:45:37 PM)
chuckles I didnt realize it was a race between the two to see who shored up the nominations first between the DNC and the RNC... wow.. no body told us.. I thought we had until what July? When the fuck did they move it up? What the hell is all that Blustering about Denver for then.. hell lets just flip a coin then. I like the fact that we have 2 strong canidates.. instead of one half assed canidate that wants us in Iraq for 100 years, and a bunch of weak assed losers who couldnt summon up more then 50 delegates combined. ( I actualy like Ron Paul but he didnt have a snow balls chance in hell ) Donchya'll have some some sports or something to watch I mean damn.. if you are gonna bitch about our canidates and how we havent picked one yet but ya'll did... It wasnt a contest to see who could drink the Kool aid the fastest folks. Calm the hell down. Someone will get picked. Gwyn

Owner59 -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 6:57:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Owner you missed the one single peteinent fact that makes this a self inflicted wound for the Florida State Democratic Party. Jeremy Ring, Democrat Broward County Introduced the bill to move the Primary. So your statement that it was started by republicans is a false statement. Now I'm not sure if the statement is made simply not knowing the facts, or if it was an attempt to spin the story. However the Florida Congressional record can be used to prove that it was in fact started by Jeremy Ring D (Broward County) My bad, Archer.You`re correct. I guess both parties participated in that fuck-up. I stand corrected.Thanks.

SinergyNstrumpet -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 7:06:17 PM)
quote: Nope. This is democratic party business. We make the rules. We cast the votes. You're welcome to poke your nose in it as soon as I'm welcome to start poking around in how the various state GOP's change their primary rules every 4 years in an attempt to favor their prefered candidate. What about those who belong to a third party? How about those with no party affiliation? It is attitudes like these that make Ralph Nader more and more appealing to me. I registered as a democrat after election 2000... but I find nothing much democractic about either party. Your attitude is much the same as most democrats... none of us have a right to comment if it might be negative. As a registered democrat I am tired of this party taking my vote for granted because they think I have no where else to go. julia

SinergyNstrumpet -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 7:10:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy CL is right -it is all of our business. Both states flouted the law. other states wanted to move up the primary too, but did not. So blame state governance. I agree with this, not to mention that one candidate lied in the Democrat party and went into Florida after saying she wouldn't. julia

luckydog1 -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 7:59:14 PM)
So Julia, are you "un-informed" or a "meddling Republican with too much free time"? It's great----Hillary's people are now comparing Obama to Ken Starr (the white water prosecutor for the slower folks). Obama is part of the right wing conspiricay. Thaose dang right wing conspiritors are everywhere, even leading the popualar vote in the Democratic Primary!!!! Bet that by the end of the week they will be saying Rove is secretly using Obama, and Obama is not smart enough to realise it. A month ago it was great news that he was drawing Republican support, bet the Spin on that changes pretty soon. This is way better than any sports game. Its like watching a comedy show. The response of the partisan Democrats on these subjects is funny as can be. 6 more months of this. Gwen, yall can pick your nominee anytime you want. But pretending that Hillary saying that Mc cain is more qualified than Obama, and comparing him to Ken Starr isn't hurting your party is hillarious. Six months ago, I was pretty sure the Dems would win, unless they fucked it all up. Chances of that keep looking better and better. What is Obama's stance on Isreal v Palestine anyway?

Owner59 -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 9:13:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SinergyNstrumpet quote: Nope. This is democratic party business. We make the rules. We cast the votes. You're welcome to poke your nose in it as soon as I'm welcome to start poking around in how the various state GOP's change their primary rules every 4 years in an attempt to favor their prefered candidate. What about those who belong to a third party? How about those with no party affiliation? It is attitudes like these that make Ralph Nader more and more appealing to me. I registered as a democrat after election 2000... but I find nothing much democractic about either party. Your attitude is much the same as most democrats... none of us have a right to comment if it might be negative. As a registered democrat I am tired of this party taking my vote for granted because they think I have no where else to go. julia Not sure what your beef is. The Green party has their rules,as does the "Right To Life" party. The Independent party has their rules,as well as the rest. In what way has the democrats taken your vote for granted? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is democratic party business(and not republican business)in the same way that collage basketball is not the business of the NBA. The different outfits, are their own entities with their own sets of rules. How they run their outfits is their business. How they set things up is their concern,whether it`s a sports league,a political party,a church,a school,a club or association or any other grouping. How else would you have it?

Owner59 -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 9:15:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 So Julia, are you "un-informed" or a "meddling Republican with too much free time"? It's great----Hillary's people are now comparing Obama to Ken Starr (the white water prosecutor for the slower folks). Obama is part of the right wing conspiricay. Thaose dang right wing conspiritors are everywhere, even leading the popualar vote in the Democratic Primary!!!! Bet that by the end of the week they will be saying Rove is secretly using Obama, and Obama is not smart enough to realise it. A month ago it was great news that he was drawing Republican support, bet the Spin on that changes pretty soon. This is way better than any sports game. Its like watching a comedy show. The response of the partisan Democrats on these subjects is funny as can be. 6 more months of this. Gwen, yall can pick your nominee anytime you want. But pretending that Hillary saying that Mc cain is more qualified than Obama, and comparing him to Ken Starr isn't hurting your party is hillarious. Six months ago, I was pretty sure the Dems would win, unless they fucked it all up. Chances of that keep looking better and better. What is Obama's stance on Isreal v Palestine anyway? What is Obama's stance on Isreal v Palestine anyway? You gonna call him anti-Semitic, if he doesn`t have the politically correct position?

celticlord2112 -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 10:13:59 PM)
quote: The different outfits, are their own entities with their own sets of rules. How they run their outfits is their business. How they set things up is their concern,whether it`s a sports league,a political party,a church,a school,a club or association or any other grouping. How else would you have it? The various political parties indeed have the right to organize their internal operations pretty much as they see fit. However, I would not say those internal operations are nobody else's concern. The result of their internal operations is to put forward candidates for elective offices in this country. Their rules--and how they enforce those rules--have direct bearing on whom will be the next President of the United States. As such, whether one is a registered Democrat or no, how the DNC resolves the lingering questions of Michigan and Florida is a matter that people should have opinions on. The argument that non-Democrats should ignore the matter and just move along....fails to persuade.

SinergyNstrumpet -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 10:31:11 PM)
quote: So Julia, are you "un-informed" or a "meddling Republican with too much free time"? No, I am an American that is kinda wondering wtf the democrats are doing by allowing Florida and Michigan to even figure into the race at this late stage in the game.... julia

SinergyNstrumpet -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 10:34:33 PM)
quote: In what way has the democrats taken your vote for granted? I have heard more than one democrat tell me to shut up if I did not like the way the party was headed, and when I suggested that I should perhaps vote Green because I do not feel either party represents me or my views the last election, then I got this song and dance that it is people like me that are to blame for GW in the White House, instead of blaming their party for not inspiring more people to vote for them... When it comes to the issues I believe in, neither party is representative of my beliefs julia Edited to add, it also disappoints me greatly when I see someone tell another American to "butt out" of political discourse. I have been accused of partisanship often, and lord knows I am an ideologue in many ways, but what is happening in Florida and Michigan is important to everyone... not just Democrats.

Owner59 -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/11/2008 10:57:30 PM)
ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: The different outfits, are their own entities with their own sets of rules. How they run their outfits is their business. How they set things up is their concern,whether it`s a sports league,a political party,a church,a school,a club or association or any other grouping. How else would you have it? The various political parties indeed have the right to organize their internal operations pretty much as they see fit. However, I would not say those internal operations are nobody else's concern. This is why the process was open,transparent and established well in advance of this election. The rules aren`t going to change in the middle.The super delegates and their rules won`t change.The completely complicated proportional delegate awarding system is staying.The way some states mix caucuses and primaries won`t change.The way the convention is run will remain the same. The result of their internal operations is to put forward candidates for elective offices in this country. Their rules--and how they enforce those rules--have direct bearing on whom will be the next President of the United States. As such, whether one is a registered Democrat or no, how the DNC resolves the lingering questions of Michigan and Florida is a matter that people should have opinions on. The argument that non-Democrats should ignore the matter and just move along....fails to persuade. There seems to be complaints about things that haven`t happened,ie things that don`t exist in the real world. Speculation is fine.But there hasn`t been any malfeasance,mistakes or wrong doing by the DNC. I`m still not sure why people are miffed.I haven`t seen any un-fairness or bad faith on anyone`s part. What`s the big deal here? Specifics please. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As as aside,..complaining is a good thing. However,there should be at least a real infraction or issue,before one complains.There should be at least a rub,a slite or some harm done before a complaint is made. Complaining about things that don`t exist or haven`t happened seems pointless.

DomKen -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/12/2008 12:16:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SinergyNstrumpet Edited to add, it also disappoints me greatly when I see someone tell another American to "butt out" of political discourse. I have been accused of partisanship often, and lord knows I am an ideologue in many ways, but what is happening in Florida and Michigan is important to everyone... not just Democrats. Julia, This really puzzles me. The Democratic party and its state affiliates are private entities. As private entities are they not allowed to establish and enforce whatever rules they see fit? Is it not long established in the US that a group's internal affairs are no one elses business unless laws are being broken? Is it not abundantly clear that celticlord started this thread in an attempt to ridcule Democrats in what is a fairly standard tactic of Republicans of all stripes? Look at the original post again: quote: http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20080309/pl_bloomberg/aalvgqnlfack;_ylt=AsJ6_0tlN79qW5AxZ8NxgaN2wPIE The Democratic party has other problems come November besides who's at the top of the presidential ticket. How can they as a party claim competency to govern a nation when they can't even govern themselves. I would feel more sanguine about a Clinton or Obama Presidency if Howard Dean or other leading Democrats would actually step into this self-inflicted mess and lead. Why would how Dean runs the DNC have anything what so ever to do with whether Clinton or Obama would make a good POTUS? What rational person blames the travails of an organization on people who neither directly nor indirectly had anything to do with either the situation or those managing it? This is just stirring the pot to stir up trouble and I made clear I saw through it. As an aside I've long been active in progressive politics and am quite liberal politically so I deal with questions of party loyalty and the party moving to the right on a fairly regular basis. Why not vote for the Green's? In a race the Green candidate could win sure vote that way. Vote for Nader? Never. If by this point it is not clear to you that Nader has become a willing stalking horse for the GOP I'd question where you've been the last 8 years. How do we as progressives/liberals reclaim the Democratic party? First off we've got to stop acting like the worst of the far right single issue voters. We're a coalition party and we're all going to have to accept some compromise or we can stick to our guns and lose every election and see if Jeb is a better POTUS than GWB come 2012. Also we need to get off our high horses. I'm sure we'd all prefer clean campaigns with substantive debates on the issues but against the GOP that isn't going to happen so we need candidates like Hilary who will fight hard to win and not get outraged when the behavior we desire is put on display. Third we need to get active with our time and money. Progressives/liberals are absolutely awful with actually showing up on time, actually coming through with pledged money or doing the basic scutwork of a political campaign. Finally and probably most importantly we have to stop letting the right define the debate We've let the term liberal be equated with being an unpatriotic communist sympathizer that has to stop. When someone defames us we need to immediately respond in the forceful manner such defamation deserves.

luckydog1 -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/12/2008 12:17:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 So Julia, are you "un-informed" or a "meddling Republican with too much free time"? It's great----Hillary's people are now comparing Obama to Ken Starr (the white water prosecutor for the slower folks). Obama is part of the right wing conspiricay. Thaose dang right wing conspiritors are everywhere, even leading the popualar vote in the Democratic Primary!!!! Bet that by the end of the week they will be saying Rove is secretly using Obama, and Obama is not smart enough to realise it. A month ago it was great news that he was drawing Republican support, bet the Spin on that changes pretty soon. This is way better than any sports game. Its like watching a comedy show. The response of the partisan Democrats on these subjects is funny as can be. 6 more months of this. Gwen, yall can pick your nominee anytime you want. But pretending that Hillary saying that Mc cain is more qualified than Obama, and comparing him to Ken Starr isn't hurting your party is hillarious. Six months ago, I was pretty sure the Dems would win, unless they fucked it all up. Chances of that keep looking better and better. What is Obama's stance on Isreal v Palestine anyway? What is Obama's stance on Isreal v Palestine anyway? You gonna call him anti-Semitic, if he doesn`t have the politically correct position? That would depend on what exact stand he took. There certainly is a position of anti Semetism that exists. I do think it will be the end of his campaign when he answers it though. Much of base seems to want to cut off all aid and sales to Isreal, and let them twist in the wind. Does he support them, or drive the Jews out of the Dem party? He will have to take stands on hard issues at some point.

luckydog1 -> RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (3/12/2008 12:26:00 AM)
IF this is such a private internal affair why are the public courts being used? We are laughing at your party domken. Its hillarious. Hillary's staff is comparing Obama to Ken Star, and saying Mc Caine is more qualified. Keep up that forcefull response, <paraphrase>, "Your not allowed to say anything!!! It's not fair" . That pretty much is the boiler plate Democratic response to everything, and why you keep getting smashed in elections. Along with impossible coalitions like Pro and Anti Isreal.

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