Do subs give their Dominas permission? (Full Version)

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ElanSubdued -> Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/15/2008 9:31:47 AM)

During a discussion I had last night, the notion of submissives giving their Dominas permission came up.  At first glance, one might be tempted to ask "permission for what"?  And, at second glance, a kneejerk answer might be "no", regardless of the domain of the first question.  This got me thinking and I asked myself (a submissive) the question in a more serious way.  Do I give my Domina permission for things?  The answer to this question is a definite "yes".  However, this is a little more complex than may appear on the surface.

I choose partners who are considerate, kind, and polite, and where we both care about each other's well being.  Thus, it's not often a Domina I'm in a relationship with will do something she knows I may have concerns about without asking me.  Indirectly then, I give permission because my Domina asks for my opinions and often respects these or we find middle ground.  She is, of course, still free to do as she wishes, but she is considerate of both our needs.  My Domina may still decide to go ahead with something she wants to do that I disagree with, am frightened of, or detest, but she is careful to ensure that I'm still emotionally and physically safe before proceeding.  For my part, I accept that there are times my Domina will do things simply because she wants to and this is her privilege.

Sometimes my permission isn't indirect.  If something is a concern to me, I'll bring it up.  Likewise, if the issue is extremely important and we can't find mutual resolve, then the issue is still on the table and this doesn't grant my Domina carte blanche to do as she feels.  Now it's true, my Domina *does* have ultimate authority in the relationship, but abuse this power and the relationship won't last.

I bring all of this up because it underlines a big difference between fantasy BDSM and real life, BDSM relationships.  My questions are as follows:

To Dominas and their partners, how do you handle conflict resolution in your own relationships?

As a Domina, would you exercise ultimate authority even if you knew your partner had strong concerns about the issue at hand?  Do you ask your partner for his/her opinion and/or permission before doing things you know they'll have concerns about?

As a partner on the bottom (switch, submissive, or slave), do you just follow your Domina carte blanche or do you like to be asked about certain things?  Are there things you don't want your Domina to do without your permission?

To Dominas and their partners (again), how do you feel about the idea of asking each other's opinions on things - in essence, asking for your partner's approval or permission?  Do you feel this breaks the BDSM dynamic or helps it along?  If your partner has a serious issue or problem, how do you like them to handle this, respectfully, while maintaining BDSM dynamics?

Yes, I realize I asked many questions.  I don't expect people to answer them all, but if something speaks to you, it would be nice to hear your thoughts.

Thank you,

Elan.



darchChylde -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/15/2008 11:14:34 AM)

Permission?  No, that seems too strong a word for me; but perhaps i'm just debating semantics.  Early in the relationship, we had our negotiations; and while there were some things which i listed as my hard limits at the time, there was also one or two things which i made clear i would not submit to without my personal decision to do so on an individual basis.

As far as conflict resolution, an outlet for open-communication is key.  Where the submissive will ask for, and eventually recieve the permission to speak freely to their dominant in order to communicate his concerns and needs.  In my opinion, sometimes the dynamics of Ds have to be layed aside momentarily for a relationship to work.  Ma'am and i have done this only a handful of times, mostly because of something we disagreed upon and i needed to be free of the fear of Her disappointment or consequences.  This has always been away from prying eyes, and even when we spoke with the intent of equals i still spoke with respect and deference.

One of the difficulties of the Ds dynamic is that complete honesty is not always possible when the submissive is not happy with something their dominant has or has not said or done.  But a submissive is also required to be honest and communicate about their headspace and those things bothering them (at least i am).  So this system of my asking "Ma'am, may i please speak frankly?" works to reconcile the desire to submit and my commitment to share what is going on with Ma'ams property. It's sort of like safewording outside of a scene.



LadyPact -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/15/2008 12:17:43 PM)

My dear elan,

Yes, a lot of questions, but good ones.  I am the type to ask permission for what.  I'm the inquisitive sort, so that's just My way.  I want input.  This is something different than asking permission, which I agree is too strong of a word.  I'd only go so far as to phrase something that way, if it would be in the area of one of My sub's hard limits.  Since he came to Me with certain ones, I knew about them and accepted them when I collared him.  Only he can change those limits.  I can not.

Conflict resolution.  Like I stated above, I do want input, but it has to be done respectfully.  There are no 'heated arguements' here.  My sub can offer Me any information as to why he might not agree with Me.  He's been taught how to approach Me and speak his mind when he needs to on any matter.  Still, I make the final decision.

There are obviously going to be times that My sub will have concerns about an activity or a situation.  The backbone of these areas is that My sub also knows that I won't harm him.  I know he trusts Me to ensure that My boy is safe. 

The thing is, we talk a lot.  There were lots of discussions before that collar made it around his neck.  Anybody who tells you communication isn't a big part of this, is probably more fantasy based, than reality based.  Last time I checked, communication only helps things along.



MisPandora -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/15/2008 3:23:34 PM)

Of course you give her permission.  Whether the guy is a client negotiating a session and paying, or a lifestyle sub making small talk that turns into something much bigger at a fetish party, or a guy pursuing a dominant woman for a LTR -- without him saying YES, there's really no consensuality to it.  This is what makes fantasy BDSM so laughable.  Oh, I'll castrate you, BBQ you and feed you to my friends in your dreams, but really.....a sane person couldn't ever say yes to that or most other really off the wall things in real life and mean for me to actually do it.

I've been given carte blanche with several individuals that I've been playing with for 10+ years.  Even though I know them inside out, I still tread carefully in terms of broaching things that we've not done before or that we've not done in some time.  He may not say no to me (or even have it in his powers to say no) but I know the look of "oh my god no" when I see it and would absolutely respect it rather than bring harm to him.



rubberpet -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/15/2008 3:32:43 PM)

Yes, I've recently given Mistress permission to interrupt me whenever I'm pooping and Lord knows She is taking full advantage of that lately!  It's like She's got LoJak on my butt when it hits the toilet seat!  [:D]

Seriously though, we have agreements and arrangements.  She is very considerate and tries to be as unintrusive as possible.  When it comes to everyday life, She is very understanding.  I have a very chaotic work schedule, so Mistress is very understanding when it come to me being out of touch because of my job.  As for the D/s side, She is very kind and nurturing.  If I ever need anything, all I have to do is ask.  She takes great care of me,



DominaSmartass -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/15/2008 5:58:05 PM)

I think your use of the word "permission" covers what most people consider "consent." Yes, the sub has to constantly maintain a state of consent in order to keep the relationship within the bounds that most of us practice and thus if something came up that he wouldn't or couldn't consent to he could absolutely withdraw it. However, I think this is different from giving permission, which implies that the dom is constantly asking "is it ok if I do ___" rather than obtaining a state of consent to cover x,y,z circumstances and running with it.



TheLookingGirl -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/15/2008 11:46:57 PM)

I agree with most everyone that "permission" is the wrong word here. I think that hard limits are a great example and a poor one at the same time. First off, its  a hard limit because you don't want it happening at all--its off limits. So the situation where the other person would "ask for permission" to do any of said hard limits should never arise. However, if the Dom/Domme is feeling that a hard limit may be a "not so hard limit" (as in-- it turns out the sub is into it, and has just never tried it before) then I think asking questions and discussing the situation is a definate yes. I would never ever do something that was a hard limit for someone without asking or discussing it with them. Thats pretty much saying "I don't give a shit if you're scared to death of XXX...I'm doing XXX to you anyway".




chezzy52 -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/16/2008 3:27:19 AM)

Good topic...it's all a matter of semmantics really.There is no doubt almost all Dominas prefer the word consent because saying they were given permission makes them look submissive.To me both words mean the same thing...i see no reason why we all have to get uptight over the word.Bottom line is..the sub/slave will always be the sub/slave,and no amount of dissecting a word will change that.



Politesub53 -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/16/2008 4:06:37 AM)

i agree with Chezzy here, consent/permission whatever word you use i have agreed to undertake something. Even within a relationship, as long as i have a tongue in my head and can say no, then keeping silent is tacit approval.

TheLookingGirl said  <Thats pretty much saying "I don't give a shit if you're scared to death of XXX...I'm doing XXX to you anyway". > i fully understand this yet sometimes, saying nothing and slowly testing the waters may be the only way to get a submissive past a certain point.

I dont think a Dominant who keeps saying " Is this okay ? " is asking permission as such, more like reassuring as the scene progresses.  



LadyJeelys -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/16/2008 6:40:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued
To Dominas and their partners (again), how do you feel about the idea of asking each other's opinions on things - in essence, asking for your partner's approval or permission?  Do you feel this breaks the BDSM dynamic or helps it along?  If your partner has a serious issue or problem, how do you like them to handle this, respectfully, while maintaining BDSM dynamics?


I do want "permission"...I'm sadistic, not a rapist. I want to be sure that my sub understands and agrees to what we do. And that even if he doesn't "want" to do something, he agrees and gives consent. Its that sharing and his willingness to give that I find so enticing. If I did the things I enjoy without that permission, I'd just plain be a bad person.....and probably in jail!

Incidentally, I also want to be sure that he is not agreeing to something because he thinks I'll pick up my toys and go home (without him) if he doesn't agree.

I don't feel it breaks the BDSM dynamic at all----more than control, BDSM is about trust. Too, I adore secondary as a person--he is smart, funny, sexy, kind, loyal....cranky, stubborn... I respect him and am very proud of him. If I didn't enjoy his input, I would be missing out on the input of someone who is intelligent, kind, loyal---and willing to give. I'm spiteful and mean, but I really try not to cut off my nose to spite my face. I don't need or want a drone in place of this wonderful guy with a great brain. Just as he trusts me, I trust him. I trust that if he says, "I'm not so sure...." that he's not challenging me or being disrepectful, but sharing a real concern. Hopefully it will be the same when I find another slave.

Of course, disagreeing with me does have consequences ;)



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/16/2008 8:43:11 AM)

I ask for permission once, and after that, it's pretty much implicit.  I check back and keep an eye on reactions, but when it comes down to it, I am the person in charge, and I am not afraid to give unpopular orders. 

I am also willing to listen, because a person who is not happy serving me is not going to make me happy in the long run.  And it's allllllll about ME!  <G> 



bipolarber -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/16/2008 8:47:24 AM)

Oh, it's a constant thing. As one rather well known Fetish Diva once put it, "It's the Domme's job to continuoulsy seduce consent out of a sub." (slightly paraphrased) Negotiation, check-ins, safewords... they are all there to verify that the Domme still has the consent... the "permission" to continue.

Many BDSM scenes become "blurred." The sub has been pushed right to their limits and is teetering on the edge of a really great orgasm/ OBE, and taking a step too far and having a really traumatic experience. That's why many of us subscribe to these practices. As another poster said, we're loving sadists... not rapists.



AS11 -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/16/2008 8:58:17 AM)

I don’t give anyone permission for anything. I make arrangements and agreements, time and energy given for performances of value. Now that can be in long term lifestyle agreement or the services of a professional or a venture capital relationship, it’s no different, it’s either win/win or it will not occur and I damn sure have something to say about it.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/16/2008 9:51:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Oh, it's a constant thing. As one rather well known Fetish Diva once put it, "It's the Domme's job to continuoulsy seduce consent out of a sub." (slightly paraphrased) Negotiation, check-ins, safewords... they are all there to verify that the Domme still has the consent... the "permission" to continue.


Thanks, I was going to reference that quote but couldn't remember if it was her or Jay Wiseman!



DiurnalVampire -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/16/2008 9:59:29 AM)

I have permission from the boys for many things. I have also been denied permission for some. Limits are the denial of permission to pursue something. With Fox, the permission is more implied. With Angel, it is an ask and answer every time we play. I have permission from Angel to have other partners. I have permission from Fox to have playmates, but not sex partners. There is a host of thigns that are implicitly asked and given. If I didnt think I eeded the OK before I did it I wouldnt ask. But, to keep the peace, I would rather ask and know how they felt about it than do as I please and ruin a relationship. AS for playtime consent, they have the right to say no. If they dont say no, I assume they dont object.

DV



solia -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/16/2008 10:32:42 AM)

hmmm...seems an obvious 'of course' to me.  Whether the term used is 'permission', 'consent', 'agreement', 'negotiation' or any other of Roget's Thesaurus options, without it constitutes assault, rape, molestation, etc that would lead to incarceration, jail, prison, no fun, bad reputation, etc...

We obtain permission to touch a choking person otherwise we can be slapped with assault .. so, yes, use whatever term makes the action more palatable for you at the moment, permission is absolutely given on both sides.  The top gives permission to the bottom and the bottom gives permission to the top.  Yes, at some point in the relationship, a comfort level is reached, trust is achieved and permission seems to not be as obvious as in the beginning .... however, it is always there .. whether by a nod, a smile, a quick breath, the extension of buttocks silently begging for more, or an orgasm.



thetammyjo -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/16/2008 2:19:37 PM)

I think in an ongoing Ds dynamic the submissive recognizes the authority of the dominant over certain areas of his/her life depending on the people involved.

Once that authority is given, it can be withdrawn unless the dominant wishes to commit a crime.

I see permission as a subset of the idea of authority referring to more specific events or activities.



LadyPact -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/16/2008 2:37:31 PM)

I'm glad I came back to this thread.  The other replies were very interesting.

The reason I used the hard limit analogy is because it is very specifically an area where I know I don't have consent.  They aren't activities that I have any power to change.  However, it doesn't mean that it isn't possible for them to change.  Many bottoms have changed their own limits over time, as they have grown, or come to different opinions on certain matters.  I'm sure most Dominants have seen this happen for themselves.

Case in point.  My sub has hard limits that I highly doubt will ever change.  Things like scat, illegal activities, things I won't even mention here, because the post would be pulled, etc.  I don't ask him to change them, or even bring them up.

He also happens to have a couple of hard limits that might possibly change.  One of them is long whips (he has trouble with the loud crack that sounds too much like the shooting in Iraq) and the other is needles (he's currently a nursing student, and a needle mark automatically means paperwork).  I don't ask him to change those either, but I know the possibility exists that, at some point, he might feel differently about the sound of a whip or the mark of a needle.  If or when they do, he knows he can come and discuss them with Me.  They aren't My limits, they are his.

Sorry for the mini hijack, My dear elan.  I just wanted to clarify that.



chezzy52 -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/17/2008 2:56:46 AM)

Here's another take on it all..i wonder if i would have permission to give permission??



vampchick88 -> RE: Do subs give their Dominas permission? (3/18/2008 5:06:07 PM)

When pet and I first began talking on the phone our first convo was pretty much taken over by him. he told me of things he liked and enjoyed doing as well as his hard limits. Any time I think of somthing I might want to try with him I'll talk to him about it first to ensure that it won't fall under an absolute hard limit or be hazardous to his health due to muscle injuries. Its a two way street without a sub I could not Domme without me he could not sub. Its two halves of a puzzel that must be able to fit in unison at least thats my point of view. ~Lorelei



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