RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!!

RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (Full Version)

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boy46 -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 12:17:02 PM)
I think there is no need to say i dont hate americans, nor chinese, nor israel people. I think there is good people in every place, i every country... I am only being descritive about we read in newpaper every day. :)

Sanity -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 12:20:02 PM)
Yeah, you're right. I do find it incredible. Are you sure? After all, nothing that you listed logically proves that you don't hate America... after all, the al-Qaeda agents who killed 3000 innocent Americans in 2001 did all that too. And we're not just talking about competition we're talking about potential world war. Here and where you live people can protest and they can vote and they have something of a say in matters of war and peace. But in places like China and Tibet they don't. Perhaps someday you might see the difference, and understand why that causes some people legitimate concern. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver I know you might find it incredible but I don't actually hate America, my brother lives in California and I visit quite often and enjoy myself immensely. I have shelfs full of books by American writers and racks of CDs by American musicians. I will even be drinking with a couple of Americans this evening. It's the constant worrying about potential competitors that lights my fire, when no one is within a million miles of the USA's military and economic power.

Politesub53 -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 12:25:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Has anyone ever noticed you never see the Dalai Lama and Barack Obama in the same room? True, but ive not seen you and Seeks in the same room either [;)]

LadyEllen -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 1:48:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: We must also bear in mind that China has one of the oldest cultures in the world, in relation to which our western civilisation is a mere upstart; we have to show respect even if it does stick in the craw. China today is not the culture that existed long ago...why would anyone have to bow and scrape to someone because they used to have an Emperor? India and Africa have older cultures, so we should show our respect for the genocide in Darfur, and the atrocities committed by greedy modern politicians who happened to be born there? Hogwash. Neither is any culture anywhere as it used to be. Culture is an evolving entity, and in the context of their thousands of years of civilisation, even the cultural revolution was nothing more than a tiny episode in the evolution of Chinese culture, just as the coming of Islam was a tiny episode in the evolution of Persian culture. But the point is not how we see them, it is how they see themselves. For us young whippersnappers, who a thousand years ago were living in mud huts in the forest, to be taken seriously by the likes of the Chinese and Persians, we have to show a little respect. Blundering in there telling them theyre all wrong about everything on the basis of our very young culture just comes across as a little arrogant in their eyes - kinda like the imperialism you were talking about earlier in this thread. When we've survived another millennia we might be past this point, but right now we're the junior school kids trying to tell the college students what to do, and that isnt going to work out unless we show some respect. And by the way, showing respect is not the same as "bowing and scraping", and I didnt say we should show respect for the human rights abuses of any culture. If my post is read as it was intended, it makes it quite clear that whilst we should prod and prompt, we will get better results with the carrot rather than the stick in this instance. E

Owner59 -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 3:30:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: He is a teacher. That is great in and of itself. It depends on what is taught, the sincerity behind the lessons, and the actions to back up your assertions. Thought without action is not admirable. It's easy to sit around telling other people how to live, when you don't have to make a living. I was lucky enough to see Tenzin Gyatso give a lecture on peace at Rutgers a couple years ago. He is a humble and peaceful man,in spite of what the Chinese have done.He has more backbone than most of the world`s leaders b/c he hasn`t succumbed to hate and vengeance. Like Dr M L King,Mahatma Gandhi,and Jesus,he`s set an example of resistance through peace and non-violence. ~The theory is that the oppressor will become so embarrassed with their behavior,that they will clean up their acts. However,if no one says or does anything to embarrass the oppressors,they go on and on.~Post #: 33 ~ Tenzin Gyatso just a man.He certainly didn`t want to be kicked out and have to deal with loss of home and home-life. He`s doing what he can and as far as I can see,neither he or the monks who follow him are bad faith players. I think you`re be to hard on him,slaveboy. What would you have him do?

slaveboyforyou -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 3:54:37 PM)
quote: I think you`re be to hard on him,slaveboy. What would you have him do? I'd ask him to renounce his claims of ruling status over Tibet for starters. He is not an elected leader. He is a person chosen by the pre-Chinese rule, Tibetan aristocracy who believe in reincarnation. They used this belief to excuse away feudalism. The serfs they virtually owned were told that they deserved this treatment because of sins in their past lives. Well that parallels feudal Europe's beliefs that all people deserved hardship because they were all sinners and could only work towards making a place for themselves in a utopian afterlife. It's a con, and I reject the liars that perpetuate that superstition.

seeksfemslave -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 4:01:44 PM)
I am very impressed with Slaveboy's knowledge of Tibet and the fact that he doesn't fall for wishy washy Liberal arguments.. I will kick his arse to prove it if I have to lol Joke Mod 11 You have to be careful these days.

Owner59 -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 4:01:53 PM)
Is it the surfs out there battling the Chinese, to become slaves again under the old system? That doesn`t add up. If the Chinese are all that great,why the troops and riot gear? I appreciate your flip-side perspectives ,though.A pot stirring avatar would be good for you(and me too).

slaveboyforyou -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 4:23:19 PM)
quote: I am very impressed with Slaveboy's knowledge of Tibet and the fact that he doesn't fall for wishy washy Liberal arguments.. I will kick his arse to prove it if I have to lol Joke Mod 11 You have to be careful these days. Thanks Seeks and kick my ass all you need to. I don't know why people on the Left are so adverse to cynicism now a days. Yes Mod 11, please don't get upset. I promise I am trying my best to behave. I haven't insulted anyone personally here as far as I know. quote: Is it the surfs out there battling the Chinese, to become slaves again under the old system? That doesn`t add up. If the Chinese are all that great,why the troops and riot gear? I appreciate your flip-side perspectives ,though.A pot stirring avatar would be good for you(and me too). No Owner, I am not saying the Chinese government is great. I just don't see what the Dalai Lama supporters have to offer to replace it. I don't like people that support causes to be trendy. I think that constitutes the majority of Free Tibet folks. The Dalai Lama seizes on this fascination with Eastern religions that many hippie types have (I don't want to categorize all Lefties in here, so I use hippie for lack of a better term.). He uses it to his advantage, and then tries to trivialize the historical atrocities of the system that gave people like him power. I have not once heard an alternative from the Free Tibet crowd. They just shout, "Free Tibet!" and leave it at that. They fawn over the Dalai Lama and give him awards, so I assume they want him to regain power. Well that didn't work in favor of Tibetans before; why would it suddenly work now?

LadyEllen -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 4:29:01 PM)
I'm wondering, given SB4U's contributions, whether this isnt all a little similar to the Cuba situation? The west decries the Cuban situation, yet prior to the current situation the ordinary Cuban people were little more than slaves working for the wealth of a lucky few. Now they have universal education and healthcare and despite the lack of political freedom, their lives are immeasurably better than they were pre-revolution. The most vociferous opposition to Cuba seems to be from those for whom the revolution meant the loss of assets and power and/or the opportunity to achieve them at the expense of the slaves, veiled in arguments for "democracy". The west decries the Tibetan situation, yet prior to the current situation the ordinary Tibetan people were little more than slaves working for the wealth of a lucky few. Now they have universal education and healthcare and despite the lack of political freedom, their lives are immeasurably better than they were pre-annexation. The most vociferous opposition to Chinese Tibet seems to be from those for whom the invasion meant the loss of assets and power and/or the opportunity to achieve them at the expense of the slaves, veiled in arguments for "self determination". And whats also similar? That the revolution in the one case and the invasion in the other brought assets and power to the revolutionaries and the invaders respectively. And in reality perhaps, thats all that the "free Cuba" and "free Tibet" campaign leaders are about too - regaining what they lost. The people meanwhile will have to put up with the depredations of whichever masters they have, according to the interests of those masters. E

popeye1250 -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 4:48:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: It seems since no one has contradicted his points that slaveboy from Arkansas got it right when speaking of the state of serfdom in Tibet's recent past. Well serfdom isn't much of a loss...is it ? Democracy is not the choice of every people. Invasion is the choice only of a conquering people. Tibet was invaded. That his historical fact. Their culture has been attacked. That is historical fact. China is the aggressor nation. That is historical fact. We endorse the territorial sovereignty of Kosovo, we support the rights of Kurds; why exclude Tibet? Celticlord, "we?"

Owner59 -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 4:50:29 PM)
"we" The world , Popeye. You`ve been around it enough to know it`s there.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 5:05:29 PM)
Lady Ellen, it's absolutely comparabable to Cuba. The United States got pushed into the Spanish American War because of idealistic, yellow jounalism. The Spaniards were running concentration camps withing Cuba for dissidents. U.S. public opinion at that time was staunchly against European imperialism, and the newspaper giants seized on it. The plight of Cubans sold stories, and average Americans ate it up. It was very true that the Spanish were brutally oppressing Cuba. But it wasn't really our business, and it was blown out of proportion. But you had internationalists like William Randoph Hearst and Joseph Pulitzer that wanted Americans to join in the imperial scramble with Europe. They did it for their own benefit (to sell newspapers) and they achieved that goal. We entered that war with idealistic ambitions to free the oppressed, and we ended up being the oppressors. Now we pander to the Cuban exile population for votes. The boycott on Cuba has not worked, and it will never work. But you have people on the Left who oppose that policy screaming for the same policy against China. All the while, we have a small Tibetan exile lobby that uses current pop culture to manipulate Leftists into supporting their cause.

Owner59 -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 6:06:52 PM)
I never saw this in terms of left or right. More about right and wrong. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And logic would say that the left supports China ,which it doesn`t. Corporate America(Walmart) and their political arm(the GOP) are in support of China,not the left.

celticlord2112 -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 6:11:52 PM)
quote: I'd ask him to renounce his claims of ruling status over Tibet for starters. He is not an elected leader. He is a person chosen by the pre-Chinese rule, Tibetan aristocracy who believe in reincarnation. They used this belief to excuse away feudalism. The serfs they virtually owned were told that they deserved this treatment because of sins in their past lives. Well that parallels feudal Europe's beliefs that all people deserved hardship because they were all sinners and could only work towards making a place for themselves in a utopian afterlife. It's a con, and I reject the liars that perpetuate that superstition. You denounce HH The Dalai Lama because he subscribes to a differing cosmology from yours. You are, of course, at liberty to do so; it renders your assessment of Tibetan culture highly suspect. The Tibetans are....Tibetan. Their culture is not my culture, nor would I wish to live as a Tibetan. I do, however, desire that Tibetans be allowed to live as Tibetans. Say what you will about their culture, you cannot dispute that Tibetans were living in peace in a stable regime prior to the Chinese invasion. They did not threaten their neighbors. The same cannot be said of the Chinese. Yet you weigh both nations in the balance and somehow find the Tibetans wanting. I would say it is a curious logic you have, but your own words amount to a rejection of logic. Anger drives a man in so many perverse ways.

Sanity -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 8:09:04 PM)
This just in from the AP - Olympic official: athletes mulling Beijing boycott An exerpt: Javelin thrower Christian Obergfoell said the Games were her first priority but that her impression of China had worsened with the latest developments. "I had been asking myself the whole time why they gave the Olympic Games to China," she said. "After Tibet, my feeling will not be any better."

Owner59 -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 8:15:17 PM)
Wouldn`t it increadible if most of the athletes didn`t show up,and killed the games? Wow.

Kirata -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 8:25:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Wouldn`t it increadible if most of the athletes didn`t show up,and killed the games? I wonder what would happen if they showed up and chanted Om Mani Padme Hum. K.

Owner59 -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 8:28:31 PM)
Shades of Tiananmen square ,I guess.

Owner59 -> RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! (3/16/2008 9:55:21 PM)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080317/ap_on_re_as/china_tibet Tibet protests spread to other provinces

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