RE: Contradictory Dogma (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 2:18:05 PM)

The unborn isn't a person (second edition).




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 2:25:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Abortion is sometimes necessary; execution never is. Abortion can save a woman's life; execution will never make a wrong right.
For me it's very simple.
A woman's body is her own.

When is it moral for a group of people (the State) to do that (take a life) which it is immoral for one person to do? Never.




Owner59 -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 2:58:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Maybe the difference between pro abortion and killing felons may come down to nothing more than vengeance.


Very insightful,Aneirin.




SinergyNstrumpet -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 3:37:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The unborn isn't a person (second edition).


It is a person, it is an immature person. It is a human being. It isn't a cat or a dog. It isn't a monkey. It is alive too. But being a person does not make it a sentient being. Being a person does not make its right supercede the right of the mother.

Scientifically speaking under the criteria of what life is, that is what a fetus is... but that does not mean anything when it comes to the discussion in my mind.



julia




Owner59 -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 3:45:31 PM)

 julia,

Would you then make abortion services un-available and illegal?

(which btw,contrary to popular belief,won`t stop abortions.It will just drive them  underground to a very dangerous and frightening place)




Level -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 3:46:51 PM)

She's already stated otherwise, O.




Owner59 -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 3:48:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

She's already stated otherwise, O.


And so goes the sticky wicket...on and on...





Level -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 3:50:42 PM)

I always thought Sticky Wicket would make a good band name. [X(]
 
And, I should not have answered for julia, she's more than capable of doing so herself.




SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 4:01:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Abortion is sometimes necessary; execution never is. Abortion can save a woman's life; execution will never make a wrong right.


execution is not about making the wrong right. it is about punishment...a proper punishment for a horrible crime.

putting a rapist in prison will not make his victim ever be a person that was not raped.  putting an armed robber in prison will never make his victim live without the nitemares.   no punishment ever makes the crime "not have happened"

putting a murderer to death assures they will not murder again.....and it is the only just punishment for the offense.  sadly, there are so many extinuating circumstances needed to justify the death penalty, it is not used enough.  i know of 2 i would pull the switch for my self, but alas, they didnt quailfy for it.




SinergyNstrumpet -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 4:12:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

julia,

Would you then make abortion services un-available and illegal?

(which btw,contrary to popular belief,won`t stop abortions.It will just drive them  underground to a very dangerous and frightening place)


My other posts on this topic are very clear, I am pro-choice. I do not think abortion as murder. Being scientific about the fact that a fetus is living tissue, and that this living tissue has the DNA of a human being does not negate my being pro-choice.

The fact of the matter is in nature mammals abort litters after they are born all of the time. They also take the life of their infants if they are weak and diseased often. It is not unheard of in nature for this to occur. It seems to be instinct in my mind for a woman to believe that the situation to deal with bringing a child into the world is not optimal and the chances of survival for the infant are less because of that and to make the decision to abort it. I am just looking at this from the perspective of what is adaptive. We are putting the word "murder" on to something that has been done by women for millenia because they were unable to care for an infant. They did it in ancient Israel, they did it on the American continent before the White man came... abortion has been performed by midwives for a very long time.


julia





kittinSol -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 4:15:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinergyNstrumpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The unborn isn't a person (second edition).


It is a person, it is an immature person. It is a human being. It isn't a cat or a dog. It isn't a monkey. It is alive too. But being a person does not make it a sentient being. Being a person does not make its right supercede the right of the mother.

Scientifically speaking under the criteria of what life is, that is what a fetus is... but that does not mean anything when it comes to the discussion in my mind.



julia



According to the highest court in the land, the fetus isn't a person... and it means a lot to the discussion in my mind.




Level -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 4:21:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

According to the highest court in the land, the fetus isn't a person... and it means a lot to the discussion in my mind.



What if they reverse that ruling? Will it mean less?




SinergyNstrumpet -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 4:21:21 PM)

quote:

According to the highest court in the land, the fetus isn't a person... and it means a lot to the discussion in my mind.



If this was a legal question in my mind, then I might agree with you i suppose. It isn't for me, it is a scientific one. A fetus needs food to survive, it has cell division, it grows, and if left to mature into a sentient being it will reproduce itself if healthy enough to survive that long... that makes it alive


julia




Real0ne -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 5:08:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinergyNstrumpet

quote:

According to the highest court in the land, the fetus isn't a person... and it means a lot to the discussion in my mind.



If this was a legal question in my mind, then I might agree with you i suppose. It isn't for me, it is a scientific one. A fetus needs food to survive, it has cell division, it grows, and if left to mature into a sentient being it will reproduce itself if healthy enough to survive that long... that makes it alive


julia




Though we disagree on the line between murder and not murder I explained what kit is talking about way back on page 1 4th post.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1711785

There is no valid data that I am aware of that would imply a fetus is not sentient.  How could anyone make that determination in the first place?

I agree that is a life, and a human life at that.   I suppose the question here is will we lower ourselves to the level of the beasts in the manner in which we govern ourselves in matters of life and death?







Real0ne -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 5:21:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

According to the highest court in the land, the fetus isn't a person... and it means a lot to the discussion in my mind.



What if they reverse that ruling? Will it mean less?


The reason they made the ruling in the first place is not to make it legal which is how most people read it as that is the result of these kinds of rulings but to say it is not illegal.  Now I realize that sounds like a play on words but people were refusing services based on their religion which frankly is their right and the state jumped in to stop it.

Women always had the right to get an abortion as far as the constitution is concerned so that did not change.  It was the states who passed uncoonstitutional laws against it that forced to the ruling. 

Everyone knows only the fed can can get away with passing  unconstitutional laws.




kittinSol -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 5:24:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinergyNstrumpet

If this was a legal question in my mind, then I might agree with you i suppose. It isn't for me, it is a scientific one. A fetus needs food to survive, it has cell division, it grows, and if left to mature into a sentient being it will reproduce itself if healthy enough to survive that long... that makes it alive



Yes, it's very much a legal question. We both agree that it should be an available choice to women, so the legality of abortion (or not, as some would have it) is crucial.

I actually agree with the law insofar as a fetus not being person, precisely because it cannot exist outside of the woman's womb.A cluster of dividing cells could belong to any specie of plant or animal - and life alone isn't enough to make a person. It's a huge subject though... and a matter for debate.




awakenednj -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 5:39:30 PM)

I always found that the heart of the question of abortion (IMO) doesn't get much air time... When does life begin? If life begins at conception... than... but if life begins at some other point in the fetus's growth: When the blood infuses the body? When quickening begins? (mother feels the movement) When the fetus can survive through care outside the womb? Not until actual birth? I don't believe that we have the technology to determine brain cord activity in a fetus like they do to determine brain death... Can we really determine if abortion is wrong without knowing when life begins?

I love one answer I saw on this thread: I support a society where abortion is not necessary.

Death Penalty (IMO-of course): Shouldn't this only be used to remove danger from society... much the way they put down a predator (lion or whatever) that has  begun hunting humans. I do not think it should be taken lightly... i know our justice system is screwed up and I have no useful ideas on how to fix it... but if used it shouldn't be for any reason except that someone has become too much of a physical and fatal danger to the surrounding community (town/country/world/whatever) with no hope of recovery...
Not opposed to it in this situation.. but then there is the "are you really sure" aspect... It's a hard call to make in each instance if we are not to become the animal we wish to rid ourselves of.

Edited to add: The attitude that bothers me with death penalty is that "they deserve it" as opposed to "it has become necesary in this instance". When we start using it as vengence is what really worries me...Don't know if that makes any sense to anyone...




TheHeretic -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 5:42:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I pointed out the absolute fallacy of equating a non viable fetus to a legal person. You have now tried to take umbrage. You're never going to get any sort of apology or retraction from me for responding to what you actually wrote.



         You're the one who assigned a 'life begins at orgasm' definition.  I never indicated that was my belief. 

Taking your premise to the logical conclusion every egg and sperm is a person so is male masturbation mass murder?

       You have to ignore a lot of science to get to the notion that a human life doesn't begin until the cord is cut.  There are a wide variety of criteria to go by, heartbeat, brainwaves at a number of different levels, ability to survive with intensive medical care, with intensive maternal care.  I'd say have you have the much more extreme position.




Level -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 5:43:36 PM)

I always post this whenever we have an abortion thread.
 
Feel free to call me redundant. But only once.

According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, the research arm of the nation’s leading abortion provider, Planned Parenthood:

At current rates, an estimated 43 percent of American women will have at least one abortion by the age of 45.

  • Two-thirds of all abortions are among never-married women.
  • Fifty-two percent of U.S. women having abortions are younger than 25 years old.
  • About 13,000 abortions each year are attributed to rape and incest—representing 1 percent of all abortions.3 "






      Social Reasons (given as primary reason)


          - Feels unready for responsibility
      21%

          - Feels she can't afford baby
      21%

          - Concern for how baby would change her life
      16%

          - Relationship problem
      12%

          - Feels she isn't mature enough
      11%

          - Has all the children she wants
      8%

          - Other reasons
      4-5%




        TOTAL:
      93%


      "Hard Cases" (given as primary reason)



          - Mother's Health
      3%

          - Baby may have health problem
      3%

          - Rape or Incest
      1%




       
      TOTAL:




      7%



      Source:  Aida Torres and J.D. Forrest, "Why Do Women Have Abortions?"
      Family Planning Perspectives, Vol. 20 No. 4 (July/August 1988) p. 170.
       
      According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, there has been nearly 40,000,000 abortions in the United States from 1973 through 1998. If the above cited statistics are correct, that means over 37,000,000 were for "convience".
      -------------------
      Week 3

      At this point, the blastocyst, or developing embryo, is looking for a spot to implant in the uterus.  Early formation of the central nervous system, backbone, and spinal column has begun.  The gastrointestinal system has also begun to develop with the kidneys, liver, and intestines forming.  The heart has begun to form. 

      Week 5

      The embryo’s tiny heart begins to beat by day twenty-one.  The brain has developed into 5 areas and some cranial nerves are visible.  Arm and leg buds are visible and the formation of the eyes, lips, and nose has begun.  The spinal cord grows faster than the rest of the body giving a tail like appearance which disappears as the embryo continues to grow.  The placenta begins to provide nourishment for the embryo.   

      Week 7

      Major organs have all begun to form.  The embryo has developed its own blood type, unique from the mother’s.  Hair follicles and nipples form and knees and elbows are visible.  Facial features are also observable.  The eyes have a retina and lens.  The major muscle system is developed and the embryo is able to move.

      Weeks 9-12

      The heart is almost completely developed and the heart rate can be heard on a Doppler machine at the doctor’s office.  Most major organs and tissues have developed and red blood cells are now produced in the liver.  The face is well formed and the eyes are almost fully developed.  The eyelids will close and not reopen until the 28th week.  Arms, hands, fingers, legs, feet, and toes are fully formed.  Nails and earlobes start to form and tooth buds develop in the gums.  Fetus can make a fist with its finger.  Testosterone (male sex hormone) is produced by the testes in male fetus. 

      And so on. For anyone wishing to see images of the fetal development spoken about above, here are a couple of many links:  http://www.wprc.org/trimester1.phtml   or http://www.realalternatives.org/pregnant/fetaldevelopment.htm




    • SinergyNstrumpet -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/16/2008 5:44:44 PM)

      quote:

      Yes, it's very much a legal question. We both agree that it should be an available choice to women, so the legality of abortion (or not, as some would have it) is crucial.

      I actually agree with the law insofar as a fetus not being person, precisely because it cannot exist outside of the woman's womb.A cluster of dividing cells could belong to any specie of plant or animal - and life alone isn't enough to make a person. It's a huge subject though... and a matter for debate.


      Here is the issue, once you call it what it is, a person, a human being, a homo Sapien, then it doesn't sound so PC to the ears. It is what it is... I do not think an embryo/fetus to be a sentient being. I also do not think people who are so severly brain damaged to lack conscious thought to be sentient beings. They can be kept "alive", but that does not make them self aware....

      My trouble with using some legal definition to define life is that people who are anti abortion can steer something the size of a gas guzzling hummer through that argument because it isn't science based.

      Now when a life becomes a sentient self aware life, that is another question. Bacteria are alive, but I would not call them self aware... just sayin


      julia




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