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~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 11:59:37 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		Okay People a few things to begin with.

1)      Yes I am involved in a situation that kind of relates but I am NOT looking for advice or Justification just other peoples Opinions.
2)      I’m not looking for flaming opinions but personal opinions that can or can’t relate to the situation and why.
3)      What I am posting isn’t a direct reflection on what is happening in my life at the current moment but a compilation of lots of events that occurred over the past 11 years I have been involved in this lifestyle. (Basically this isn’t really about “ME” right now it’s about Relationships within this lifestyle in general.)

Well Now that all that is cleared up I have been recently wondering about why I’m still involved in this lifestyle. I have been the kind of person to say that this is something that I “AM” and not something that I do. Because of this one could say I am here because there is nowhere else I could be as Vanilla isn’t an option unless I betray who I say I really am.

This taken into account at times I look at relationships I’ve had and the Marriage I am in today and wonder if what I am getting is worth what I am putting in?

Now calm down everyone, I’m not making comments about my sub or about what she does for me but rather the little ugliness that come about and the facade that one puts up in public that only those inside know where all the tarnished parts and minor cracks lie.

It might come as a shock to some but there are days when my wife is just not showing up wanting to surrender, and there are times when the girl of your dreams wonders what she is really getting out of the deal and requires her Dom to show her what she is worth to him and in a perfect Jack Rinella Short Story or John Norman Novel the Dom would set his foot down and the sub would see his dominance and give into his will and know where her place is.

I live in the real world and I like girls who are more than Vapid “Ye’Sir” Robots, women who get PMS and get angry and feel vulnerable and in need of reassurance from time to time and these women at times make points that are hard for me to want to be honorable and maintain what I feel is right at the same time.

My slave feels overwhelmed by duties and I see that she is not working as hard as she can and I believe that if she simply remained motivated on a task rather than dreading it, such as the Dishes or Cleaning the Bathroom that these tasks would take much less time and would not be overwhelming her as much. She asks, at first respectfully, if I could help her as it is just to overwhelming and so I agree but then in a few weeks she is overwhelmed again and again she asks but this time there is a note in her voice that states she is expecting me to help fix what she allowed to overwhelm her again.

Again a Note: If I saw her cleaning such things on a DAILY basis and she was still getting overwhelmed I would jump in or perhaps take over the task myself but because I have given her the ability to do these things as they need done I notice she does nothing about them at all until they become overwhelming and when she looks to me for help again I am disappointed because if only she would maintain the activity then she would not get overwhelmed as easily.

When I finally feel it is necessary to discuss the fact that she lets things get too bad before doing anything about it she breaks down about how she has all these other responsibilities to do and how I only do minor things around the house such as Trash and cleaning the Office/Nursery as it is where I spend the most time and Thus make the biggest mess. And she asks me why everything falls onto her shoulders. At this point all I see is the 4 to 6 hours of TV she watches DAILY and that this is why these things are overwhelming her.

The Point still stands however I do realize that I do not maintain an equal amount of the housework however I see her as being able to maintain these things in learning my household discipline and helping her to be of better service to me, in that the more time and energy I have the more focus I can put on her. I end up resenting the fact that I am doing things that my girl agreed to have as her responsibilities and I am even more resenting the fact that I live in a dirty home because she feels overwhelmed and I feel she just isn’t working hard enough.

So to tie this into the Thread title, sometimes I see what I get out of my girl and what I have to put up with and what I have to give into and give up on and what that is worth.

Like I said this is not a direct relation to what is going on with me, it has a similar feel but this isn’t what I am dealing with.

My Question is do you ever feel that what you are putting in isn’t worth what you are getting out and what do you do to try and fix this issue? I would like opinions from both sides please.

As Always

Steel


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Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 12:10:25 PM   
Gemini1766


Posts: 991
Joined: 3/7/2008
Status: offline 		In a situation like yours, I would likely feel I was not getting everything I should out of the relationship. At least from what you've described. There are much more to the dynamics than what you have given, not enough info, really. And you could never give it all.

Might you consider a TiVo or some such recording device and directly tie her viewing to her required chores? Seems TV would be something she earns, not a right. But, perahaps that's overstepping here. Really, it's up to you to decide. We're all different.

Best of luck.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 12:11:06 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		In a situation such as you describe, what I see you failing at is helping her deal with the tasks on a timely manner. I wonder if she is suffering from any disorders such as ADD or anxiety disorder that is contributing to this. Or Epstein-Barr or chronic fatigue. And I wonder if she's had problems like this her whole life.

And since this isn't a perfect world, if you're both working 8 hours a day, and she then has to come home and work 2 to 3 hours nightly while you watch tv, I would expect her to become resentful. Did she know ahead of time that she would have to do everything or is this a change in expectations? Did she used to cope, and now can't?

But basically I don't see you trying to solve the issue properly which is why you're resentful yourself. Make sure there's no physical cause of fatigue, no mental cause of not scheduling, and help her learn how to do this. There are books and there's also flylady.com. But one week of you helping her work out a doable schedule should go a long way towards a permanent solution.

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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 12:12:28 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		The problem is that you are helping her by giving her fish, rather than teaching her how to fish for herself. 

On the other hand, most relationships are dealing with two simultaneous sets of standards.  This is where compatibility can be so helpful.  Yes, it's true, as a dominant in an authority exchange, your set of standards is what gets abided by.  But that doesn't mean the other person will automatically enjoy them, understand them, or feel it comes naturally to adhere to them.  In fact if your standards come down to a personality issue at its source, it can take years before serious progress can be made towards changing.

She may never be the type of person to automatically SEE something the way that you see it, or feel the impulse to do something about it.  And that's ok.  But training her to be aware of X situation and to immediately take Y action can be done fairly easily.  A possible simple solution is simply to make a very detailed list of chores, a very detailed instruction manual on how those chores will be done and what standards it will be held to and to allot time of every day to complete those chores.

Contemplating whether a certain relationship style works for you is natural, to me it's a sign of growth and change and self-awareness.  But doing it because it's "just too hard" isn't good enough for me.  People do that and then you see them come back in six months because it's JUST as hard on the other side.

Instead of trying to use your own singular standards for what you put out and what you get, work together to figure out where her standards are coming from and how to assimilate them into what you need.

Teach her to fish.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 12:15:38 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah



My slave feels overwhelmed by duties and I see that she is not working as hard as she can and I believe that if she simply remained motivated on a task rather than dreading it, such as the Dishes or Cleaning the Bathroom that these tasks would take much less time and would not be overwhelming her as much.


Dear SteelofUtah:
I really hope this opening post IS about you because it's just better when it's personal (for me anyway) as responding to these endlessly well phrased intellectually pre-determined non-emotive type posts just often bores me....
anyway....
maybe Your slave is an emotional masochist in which case she will NEVER not be overwhlemed and will use being overwhelmed as a device for getting MORE of the same (Take it from one who really knows.....i am giving away am emotional masochist's secret here).
In which case no amount of that ridiculous positive reinforcement is going to motivate her. Ignore her completely. That will really get the job done. Trust me on that one.

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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 12:15:49 PM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		One of the first things I ever read on BDSM, and which made me laugh, was "don't make your sub clean the kitty litter".  (Since I've seen other writings that say that you should!)

Dishes aren't fun to do.  Yes, they are much easier if you keep up with them, but as many times as you tell yourself that you are doing what Master wants to help yourself along it is still boring.  Same for cleaning toilets, vacuuming, grocery shopping, etc.  There is simply little zing in it, especially if little appreciation is shown for it. 

I have what many would consider a radical suggestion.  Why don't you cut TV time to 2 hours a night?  If she has favorite shows, allow her to pick 2 hours worth on weeknights and these are her treat if she gets her chores done.  This will take self control on your part, especially if you are a TV junkie at all.  When my daughter was young I got rid of our TV completely because she spent too much time in front of it.  It is amazing how much time you really have when you are not glued in front of it.  You might enjoy reading to each other, perhaps out of something like The Loving Dominant and talking about it as you go, or listening to your favorite music (or playing it, if either of you are musical).

My feelings were hurt deeply yesterday over a misunderstanding.  I found myself wondering why I don't throw in the towel instead of busting my hump to be as pleasing as possible.  (I was REALLY feeling sorry for myself.)  The misunderstanding was cleared up, we are closer than ever, and I know exactly why I stay in the lifestyle.  I have never felt so fulfilled in my whole life, never so at peace with myself and my role, never so happy.  If you aren't feeling these things any more, let her know without placing any blame.  Ask her to make suggestions that will help to bring the joy back.  You might find out that she is feeling exactly the same way - and being a slave I know that we run on appreciation.  It is the fuel to our lives. 


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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 12:17:52 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:


Teach her to fish.

You know LA just as i was about to blow you out of the water you come out with a gem....
yes i would say further let her starve and give her a fishing rod......

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 12:18:50 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Dude,I learned this the hard way.
 
Fuck the roles. Fuck the stereotypes. Fuck the expectations.
 
Humans are not constant entities that you just wind up and set in motion, down predictable little paths you preconcieve. They have bad days-they have reactance, they question.
 
 Sometimes you fuck up-and they will get mad or sad at you over it. Then you act like a big boy, and eat some crow..hopefully-it leaves a REALLY bad taste in your mouth-one that comes back to haunt you when you find yourself repeating what made that happen.
 
 And hopefully, you also have a woman who passes enough inspiration back and forth with you to find the strength to get over yourselves enough to move onwards. That's how it works.
 
 And for those who can't do that-train wrecks-that's also how THAT works.

_____________________________

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I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 12:35:56 PM   
lally3


Posts: 595
Joined: 3/4/2008
Status: offline 		vanilla, bdsm whatever - sometimes what you put in isnt equalled out.  but at least with bdsm, in a great relationship like yours, most of the time, the balance is there.

i was listening to a vanilla couple in the supermarket once, bitching away at each other, both miserable - they might have a brilliantly tidy home, but everything else is a mess.  i thanked god right there that i dont and wont ever have a relationship like that.

you have to have imperfection sometimes - if only to appreciate the perfection you do have with your girl the rest of the time.


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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 12:40:17 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Being dominant isn't about setting rules and then going fishing.  While I am certain three people will say they do exactly that,  you and your wife are clearly not them.  And yes, I have often felt that what I put in does not equal what I got out of relationships.  Of course I was passive aggressive about getting my needs met and now I am just aggressive and it works much better.

The sort of women I want/lust for/have is the strong independent type who is intelligent and insightful.  They don't seem to make the best dishwashers though.    You can't turn that sort of woman into a scullery maid and not expect it to bite you in the ass. 

I think it is a fantasy for the most part that you can just give orders and forget about them.  Its like training a child, you need to make sure the lesson is presented in a way that works for that individual.  You need to reward them in a way that truly works for them.  Then you have to do all that without treating them like a child or a dog and that the training has to be invisible to them on some level.  Lastly, you have to be consistent about giving those rewards.

Even then you have to treat that person with respect.  Imagine what a "honey, you did such a good job keeping up this week, I am going to do everything and spoil you" would do for marital bliss.  You let them know you recognized their hard work, you tell them they were a "good girl" in whatever way works for her, and  you show that you too can do the work.

Also, just like parenting a child, you have to be careful what behavior you are rewarding with attention.  In your case it seems that if she ignores housework she gets a huge bump in attention when you help her clean house.  Any wonder why she puts it off?

So, what are you doing while she is working?  Are YOU working?  Perhaps make a better connection between  you being away at work and her maintaining the household.  You need to treat it just like homework, when you get home, she doesn't get attention till the housework is done.  Then it is together time.

Or, if housework is done in the evening because you both work, find something constructive to do while she does housework so you are both working.  Women often want to be sex slaves but few want to just be boring old worker slaves.

Also, just as with a child, separate the "bad job" from the "bad girl"...work with her to correct it and assume she wants to do well.  If she associates housework with criticism from you, she isn't going to enjoy housework.  At first, praise her for everything and then slowly narrow the praise down as she gets better so she has to do better and work harder for the same amount of praise.

Lastly, I really really hope she doesn't read CM...


< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 3/21/2008 12:43:26 PM >

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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 12:44:39 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		Some of these are freaking Brilliant I don't want to say who but some are just Brilliant.

Others are missing the point or just picking a Party to Back and not realizing that I am discussing a Concept not an Event.

Keep um Coming people I am VERY Interested in your opinions

Thank you for what you have already said.

Steel

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 12:49:21 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		I think that occasionally its far easier to see what you put in and not realise the effort for another person. Some people find things hard to do, thats how it works, so for example I am very able to put aside what I need for the sake of other people, some people cant do this, I am guilty of at times expecting the same as I give from others, but if they cant do it very easily their putting effort in may look a lot less than mine but for them it may be twice as hard. I dont know if that makes much sense, I hope it does.

So with your example of washing up, I like to wash up my dishes as soon as they have been used then I can forget about them, other people like to leave them till there are lots, some just really hate doing the dishes, so for me it would be very easy to stay on top of that task becuase it is something that I do myself, If a person doesnt do it then changing will be an effort. Also everyone takes the path of least resistance, people do things the easiest way. For example if a child knows that by crying they will get their parents attention quicker than if they simply asked then they would cry.

I often in the past have felt that I have put more effort into relationships, but that may be because I can do it with more ease, but I am starting to learn when enough is enough in terms of not getting anything back. Unfortunatly I think i tend to give everything right away and ask for nothing, people get used to that so when I do ask for something they think I am being demanding (i really have to stop doing that)


_____________________________

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I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 12:51:04 PM   
LostLittleSoul2


Posts: 25
Joined: 3/21/2008
Status: offline 		I agree with DesFIP and am wondering as well if there might be any hidden disorder there, as I just recently (after 14 years) got diagnosed with Fibromyalgia which explains finally to me not only, why I am unable to cope with severe bondage (as it causes far too much pain), but also might be the reason why I am often fatigue and also fairly easily get distracted. I got told all my life at every school I would have A's if I would do just a little bit more but somehow most of the time never managed to pull myself together for it except on very rare occassions. Same with housework. I live here on my own with my cats and have days where I start a good clean up but then don't have the energy to continue (doesn't matter if same day or the next day) or to keep up the cleanlyness, eg to clean my dishes every day instead once a week *sigh*.

I think I am able to change if I would meet my Dom on here, as I worked well in other subjects when I experienced kind of structure from a true friend here who can be pretty dominant in other aspects of life, but I know the feeling of fatigue fairly often and then simply can't be bothered, and that has not necessarily to do with lazyness, but might be connected with my Fibromyalgia.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 1:12:21 PM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		In this concept we're discussing, do both parties work outside of the home? My answer would vary depending on the answer to that.

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~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com


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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 1:12:54 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Michael started saying all of the things I had written up before I dropped the post.  I'm going to see how much of it I can remember. 

For one thing, I'm definitely with LA.  In this particular case, you're not teaching her anything, except for the fact that when your girl is overwhelmed, you will bail her out.  Guess who's responsible for that pattern?  You were the one who established it, so guess next who gets to undo it.

I'm glad you asked for perspectives on all sides, because I have a couple of things to throw at you.  For one, I'm a firm believer that this isn't all about the sub doing all of the tasks, and the Dominant sitting back and enjoying the fruits of the labors.  In My view, a submissive does these things for us to make our lives easier, so that we can focus our efforts, not on leisure time, but on other tasks.  In other words, flip the coin.  In a lot of cases, it's as easy as simple praise and reward.  My own sub will tell you that his greatest accomplishment is pleasing Me.  His greatest remorse is My disappointment in him.

Since you're specifically not looking for advice, I'll just try to give you a bit of a glimpse into how things work in My household.  This is a poly household, so some things might not relate directly to you.  Each of us has certain responsibilities for the house to function.  My sub does more of the menial tasks than I do.  For instance, I can't tell you the last time I dusted.  My boy does, I would guess, eighty percent of the domestic chores.  Actually, he is a fan of theflylady, so thanks to whoever mentioned that. 

The hours he puts into domestic service, are equaled by Myself in other ventures.  These things include reading, instruction, learning, acquiring those skills I feel a Dominant should possess.  Some of it is directly related to that time which I spend rewarding him.  (I can count on one hand those instances where I have had to punish.)  It also goes toward investing in and taking those opportunities for play, and other activities.  Those, of course, are at My discretion.

I'm giving a very poor example here, but I'm hoping the message is still coming through.  The point is that, My sub benefits from these things, whether they be directly or indirectly.  I'm not just sitting back, eating bon bons, while he does all of the work.  It's just that My work is...... different.  The fruit of both labors feeds the dynamic, and helps it to remain healthy and grow.

Perhaps I could have made the whole post easier, My dear Steel.  Flip the coin.  Is your sub, getting  what it's worth?


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 1:34:05 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

In this concept we're discussing, do both parties work outside of the home? My answer would vary depending on the answer to that.


Through out my life that answer has changed. Sometimes they did and some times they didn't. Somtimes they worked from home and other times at Companies, sometimes full time and sometimes part time.

The concept that I am discussing is that there is a place where I see what is not getting done as a matter of effort and not amount as I will regularly clean the house to baseline and explain that this is where I want the house to be on a daily basis or at least returned to this place by the time we go to bed. The look will stay for a week or so and then things will start to deteriorate and the excuse is offten the same it is all based on how overwhelmed they are, I will offtern watch and review what they are doing and I will watch that the ammoount of time they spend dreading doing the task is how long the task itself would have taken them if they just did it.

I can clean a DISASTER Area of a home in a day, Because I start and don't stop till it's done. The Concept I am trying to discuss is what one puts in and what one gets out.

I like where the little off shoots have gone but some are really off the mark. We REALLY aren't JUST discussing my wife we are discussing some Half Dozen relationships that went seriously over the past 11 years.

I am just looking for opinions on how others see this particular situational concept. Not what I need to do about my wife as that is something that we are working on together I used her as an example because it is fresest in my mind as it has happened recently.

Steel

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 1:42:05 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

I can clean a DISASTER Area of a home in a day, Because I start and don't stop till it's done. The Concept I am trying to discuss is what one puts in and what one gets out.



See I think I get what you mean but I guess its motivation and stuff, for example I have been cleaning my room today because I know i have to, but I dont feel like it, so where some days I will wake up and cant rest until its clean today its still just as bad as it was when I woke up (actually it may be worse) Because I cant motivate myself. Some people are easier to motivate, for example my Dad cant stand mess, he wont let things get messy he cleans up right away. My mother will go on a mad cleaning thing once its a tip. The problem is judging people by the way that you think about the situation I think, which i think I already said all be it not the best in the world so I wont try saying it again :D


_____________________________

Resident Lime(y) Tart
There would be no gossip without secrets
I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 1:45:25 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

My Question is do you ever feel that what you are putting in isn’t worth what you are getting out and what do you do to try and fix this issue? I would like opinions from both sides please.

As Always

Steel



I have always been of the belief that a Master doesn't has the slave he wants, he has the slave he deserves. If you want a different sort of slave, then be a different sort Master.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 1:48:59 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

will offtern watch and review what they are doing and I will watch that the ammoount of time they spend dreading doing the task is how long the task itself would have taken them if they just did it.


So you watch and criticise?  Do you watch to see what she is doing wrong?  Do you praise her for what she does right and ignore the bad? 

I worry less about what she is doing wrong than what I can do to help overcome whatever difficulty SHE has (not the one I assign her but the internal thing that is stopping her) and in so doing actually help her overcome the problem.

This isn't a great analgy but I think it is effective.  It is like yelling at an alcoholic and telling them to just stop drinking.  IT  JUST  ISN'T GOING TO WORK.    Instead, find out why she dreads it, fix THAT, and she will love you for it.

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RE: ~What you are getting and what that's worth.~ - 3/21/2008 1:50:13 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I have always been of the belief that a Master doesn't has the slave he wants, he has the slave he deserves. If you want a different sort of slave, then be a different sort Master.

Celeste


Thanks for the compliment Celeste!

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