RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (Full Version)

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LadyHibiscus -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (4/30/2008 12:26:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantJenny

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

*wanders in, looks for the box marked "freak", fails to find it, leaves*


Hey, wait...*points over there* It's so FRICKIN' HUGE you don't even realize it's a box sometimes...:) But I spend an awful lot of time in that box, and it's a rawther nice place.


My corner is plenty cozy!  Come on down!



ShaktiSama -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (4/30/2008 12:42:18 PM)

*curls up cozily between DJ and LadyH*  Are there snacks in the Freak Shack?  I made a vow long ago never to stick a label to my chest for any party or gathering that does not provide snacks.




BlackPhx -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (4/30/2008 12:47:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Araven

you need up with 9 different boxes. Example is below


                Normal                                   Dominant                                  Submissive

Normal

Sadist  

Masochist                          



      
 
You need more boxes...trust me.  Why? Because you have not even begun to touch the different combinations that can exist within the same person physically, emotionally and mentally, much less the number of permutations that can occur when you change just One element of a relationship dynamic.
 
Example
I would classify as a Dominant Sado-Masochist, being that I am equally Sadistic and Masochistic and a Dominant personality as well.
 
With my Ex Husband since he was a Dominant Submissive male  as an example I was purely Top Dog.  He was Dominant everywhere save the bedroom with me, incapable of being Dominant with me, but Dominant towards all females and males in his vicinity or willing to play with him, unless they were more Dominant then he fell into submissive mode with them (See what I mean?)
 
Now I on the other hand am never Submissive though I can submit (to Master only), extremely Dominant in every area of my life, but also heavily Masochistic and Sadistic. OTOH I can when neccesary put up a submissive fascade until such time as I can turn the tables and reverse the situation. This generally happens during periods where there is extreme danger of uncontrolled violence happening. Learned in childhood, has come in handy a few times, including during a mugging. Unlike it seems every other female I meet, pulling my hair only makes me growl in anger and want to fight . Sigh (wondering what I am missing) Emotionally however I am an extremely empathetic person and tend to hold tight to my emotions to keep from feeling what everyone around me is feeling. I am easily hurt by those I care about and once badly hurt, rarely tender the trust that would allow it to happen again. I am not an emotional masochist. Mentally I must be, I am more stubborn than a mule (as Ithink some have seen when I am making a point) and willing to dicus things until we agree to disagree or the cows have walked in demanded to be fed and milked and walked out again.
 
Master on the other hand is a Sadist, would not have by John Jacobs definition been considered a Dominant because he is emotionally connected with me and will take my advice and give me credit for it, while allowing me to buck him as a dominant myself. But he is a Dominant Sadist, needing equally the Dominance over another ( he will play with submissives since I can't do that for him consistently), and exercising his need for sadism regularly. However he can also be very tender and romantic, considerate, empathetic and a myriad of other adjectives.
 
Or you could just call us Humans or Freaks..either works, but if you are going to cross classify...you need more boxes. Lots More.
 
poenkitten



DominantJenny -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (4/30/2008 1:02:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

*curls up cozily between DJ and LadyH*  Are there snacks in the Freak Shack?  I made a vow long ago never to stick a label to my chest for any party or gathering that does not provide snacks.




There are most definitely snacks. *nodnod* :)



aidan -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (4/30/2008 1:40:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

*curls up cozily between DJ and LadyH*  Are there snacks in the Freak Shack?  I made a vow long ago never to stick a label to my chest for any party or gathering that does not provide snacks.




Did somebody say snacks?

*curls up in Mistress' lap and sniffs around for snacks*

I'll wear whatever goofy title or costume you want if there's free food involved.

And because I can't resist...
One of us! One of us! EEEE-hehehehehehe!



LadyHibiscus -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (4/30/2008 2:28:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

*curls up cozily between DJ and LadyH*  Are there snacks in the Freak Shack?  I made a vow long ago never to stick a label to my chest for any party or gathering that does not provide snacks.




Now.  {hairy eyeball}  when would I EVER not serve snacks-o-plenty??  And cheesecake. 



ShaktiSama -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (4/30/2008 5:46:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aidan
And because I can't resist...
One of us! One of us! EEEE-hehehehehehe!



*tickles her boykin affectionately under the chin*  Gabba gabba hey.

Ok, so I'm a freak.  My freakishness generally expresses itself in "Top" mode, although I like to Bottom for intercourse and service.  I am usually Dominant and as Sadistic as circumstances require and allow.

All this being said, I make zero promises.  If I discover some kind of freaky bottom-ish or masocchistic thing that floats my boat, gets me off, or makes me happy?  I'll go for it.  I'm not going to deny my pleasures for the sake of a role constructed by others.

That's the joy of being kinky.  I'm already bent and twisted.  I don't have to bend and twist according to some pre-approved plan.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (4/30/2008 7:46:08 PM)

And that is exactly Midori's point in that workshop---that everything goes and liking to be spanked does not make you less domly, while having a great time doing shibari ties does not make you less of a sub.  IT'S ALLLLL GOOD.

Go FREAKS!



MasterFireMaam -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (5/1/2008 12:39:49 AM)

I violently disagree with the term "normal" in either usage. We are NOT abnormal. Neutral would have been a much more appropriate term.

As far as the theory...I've held it for years as has most of my leather tribe.

Master Fire



IvyMorgan -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (5/1/2008 3:47:54 AM)

What happens if I want to wear all the labels? 

Can I be a vanilla, submissive, masochistic sadist, please.  (Now I feel like I'm ordering coffee.)



LaMistressa -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (5/1/2008 4:53:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan

What happens if I want to wear all the labels? 

Can I be a vanilla, submissive, masochistic sadist, please.  (Now I feel like I'm ordering coffee.)


So you're a Venti?

As for the OP, I think what Midori used is a good basic rubric, and people fall somewhere on the scale. You could do a more detailed one with more descriptive categories, but it covers the basics. I find labels  useful only in aiding communication, but that in itself is a very big issue. Besides, if Midori was teaching the class it was probably fun and hot, so I'd sit there and listen to her read the dictionary!



IvyMorgan -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (5/1/2008 6:48:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaMistressa

So you're a Venti?


A What-i?  This would probably be a good time to point out I don't actually drink coffee.



MadameMarque -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (5/1/2008 7:41:53 AM)

I see a lot of dismissing of "labels," here.  On the profile side of CM, there are terms such as "Dominant," "Submissive," "Switch," "Slave."  Does anyone else have one of those checked?  Does anyone else find that information useful, or use those as search terms?
 
Words, as tools, are as dull and vague or as sharp and exacting, as our commonly-understood definitions of them.
 
I observe that people do not have a commonly-held definition of terms such as dominant, submissive, masochist, sadist, and fetishist.  When they use these words, they tend to think that others have the same idea that they do, about what these words mean, and this unspoken assumption causes a lot of misunderstanding and sometimes, grief, between people, and even in people's feelings about themselves.
 
What is a commonly held perception (no, not universal, but very common), is that there are two options on the menu: dominant and submissive.  That "dominants" enjoy all things Top, and are all things Top, and only Top; submissives, likewise, enjoy all things bottom, and are all things bottom, and only bottom. 
 
This is the way that these descriptive terms become a burden.  This general and absolute definition of these labels, blunts communication between those trying to find each other and wanting to understand each other's desires. 
 
And it gives the impression that this is what is really inside of others, that this is how others feel and operate.  Sometimes, people wonder what's wrong with them, and hope that maybe they'll learn to like what they're "supposed" to like.  Sometimes, people are just dissatisfied, because they can't seem to find what satisfies them, or can't seem to convey to others, what it is that excites them.  It's like, it's not on the menu.
 
I would have to consult my course notes, from Midori's very useful, insightful class, but I believe that she used the term "neutral," rather than normal, to describe a person having no interest in a certain vein of kink.

"If his love is to be called perverse, then let it be so, for maybe love is too great to be normal, too intense to be sane."
 
- from commentary on the film Gekko no Sasayaki aka Moonlight Whispers, by myownpteidaho, http://imdb.com/title/tt0208178/usercomments



ShaktiSama -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (5/1/2008 10:00:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameMarque

I see a lot of dismissing of "labels," here.  On the profile side of CM, there are terms such as "Dominant," "Submissive," "Switch," "Slave."  Does anyone else have one of those checked?  Does anyone else find that information useful, or use those as search terms?


Given the number of people who send me email on a daily basis without having read my profile at all, because they  respond solely to a "dominant red" name color and a photo--I am not a big fan of the search terms approach, no.  The people I have befriended and met through CM tend to be people I meet and find interesting through these forums--I have yet to find a single connection that panned out through the "gold-panning" method out there. 

I find it more useful to get a grasp of who people are and whether I personally like them by reading their posts and opinions here than by trolling profiles.  Meeting people through the forums opens me up to a much wider geographic span--I end up knowing quality people no matter where they hail from--and I also end up taking an interest in a much wider variety of human beings, including people I probably would never see if I was just seeking via a narrow google band filtered via stereotype ("submissive hetereosexual male" only).

This way, I get to talk to other male and female dominants, or a wunnerful lesbian switch, or men and women who are in solid monogamous or poly relationships but who are well worth knowing as friends and contacts, people who might normally be outside my age parameters or who don't post photographs...etc etc.

So yeah.  Upshot is that labels are not all that useful to me.

If I have to pick one, I still prefer "Freak", though.  Maybe I will start a pride movement for Freakish-Americans.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (5/1/2008 12:18:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama


If I have to pick one, I still prefer "Freak", though.  Maybe I will start a pride movement for Freakish-Americans.



Can we have a special tiara?  I love tiaras........



rubberpet -> RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?! (5/1/2008 12:23:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Araven

So I recently attended a workshop in which the presenter (Midori) gave an outline of classical defintions and then challanged them. In most typical cases it seems that by defination A dominant is a sadist, and the submissive is a masochist. Broken down... you have two things here. You have the sensation (sadist and masochist) and the Dynamic (dominant and submissive). And then you have what I'de like to call "normal" or "nilla".

I like the defination of a sadist as a person who likes to cause sensations in another, and the masochist likes to feel the sensations. But I suppose the neat thing about this class was.. if you look at these things on a graph (Im a nerd and love graphs) in which you compare Dynamic vs Sensation with the categories on the Dynamic Axis as (Normal, Dominant, Submissive) and then the Sensation Axis (Sadist, Masochist, and Normal) you need up with 9 different boxes. Example is below


                Normal                                   Dominant                                  Submissive

Normal

Sadist  

Masochist                          



       The nine catergories are Normal/Normal, otherwise known as vanilla. You have your "normal" Dominant and Submissives, typically these are those who enjoy service and the recieving of service orientated things. You have your "normal" sadist, and masochist, there is no power dynamic here, simply people who enjoy giving and recieving sensations.You have your Dominant Sadist, and Submissive Masochist. The real interesting thing I found though was, there is a spot for a Dominant Maso, and a Submissive Sadist.  How do these fit in? My thought was... a dominant maso can still be dominant, but command their submissive to strike them or cause sensations to them and still maintain their control. The submissive sadist can work by taking orders from a dominant to cause sensations in another.

So sorry for the long post, but I wanted to know: How many of you take on these mixed labels? What is your life-path like? Have you switched boxes before? Are you a submissive sadist, or a dominant maso? have you switched roles mid scene? Perhaps this little bit of knowledge I learned, can help others in expressing their own desires and kinks.
 
I am a submissive, but a sadist, too.  When I got the opportunity to top someone, I really enjoyed making them "feel" things.  [sm=pushed.gif]



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