The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submissive Sadist?!

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The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and Submi... - 3/22/2008 12:00:37 AM

Araven

Posts: 149
Joined: 3/16/2006
Status: offline

So I recently attended a workshop in which the presenter (Midori) gave an outline of classical defintions and then challanged them. In most typical cases it seems that by defination A dominant is a sadist, and the submissive is a masochist. Broken down... you have two things here. You have the sensation (sadist and masochist) and the Dynamic (dominant and submissive). And then you have what I'de like to call "normal" or "nilla".

I like the defination of a sadist as a person who likes to cause sensations in another, and the masochist likes to feel the sensations. But I suppose the neat thing about this class was.. if you look at these things on a graph (Im a nerd and love graphs) in which you compare Dynamic vs Sensation with the categories on the Dynamic Axis as (Normal, Dominant, Submissive) and then the Sensation Axis (Sadist, Masochist, and Normal) you need up with 9 different boxes. Example is below

              Normal                                  Dominant                                  Submissive

Normal

Sadist

Masochist

The nine catergories are Normal/Normal, otherwise known as vanilla. You have your "normal" Dominant and Submissives, typically these are those who enjoy service and the recieving of service orientated things. You have your "normal" sadist, and masochist, there is no power dynamic here, simply people who enjoy giving and recieving sensations.You have your Dominant Sadist, and Submissive Masochist. The real interesting thing I found though was, there is a spot for a Dominant Maso, and a Submissive Sadist. How do these fit in? My thought was... a dominant maso can still be dominant, but command their submissive to strike them or cause sensations to them and still maintain their control. The submissive sadist can work by taking orders from a dominant to cause sensations in another.

So sorry for the long post, but I wanted to know: How many of you take on these mixed labels? What is your life-path like? Have you switched boxes before? Are you a submissive sadist, or a dominant maso? have you switched roles mid scene? Perhaps this little bit of knowledge I learned, can help others in expressing their own desires and kinks.

< Message edited by Araven -- 3/22/2008 12:03:32 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/22/2008 3:55:28 AM

Madame4a

Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Araven

So sorry for the long post, but I wanted to know: How many of you take on these mixed labels? What is your life-path like? Have you switched boxes before? Are you a submissive sadist, or a dominant maso? have you switched roles mid scene? Perhaps this little bit of knowledge I learned, can help others in expressing their own desires and kinks.

I tend not to use labels too much or think of them as labels or roles, but rather who I am. The labels mean so many different things to so many different people, its just better to get to know people rather than assume I know what the label means.

I don't think I take on mixed labels as you've defined them here. I have been a bottom and in service; I have never submitted nor could I ever be a masochist.

I think any knowledge is good at expressing desires...

(in reply to Araven)

Post #: 2

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/22/2008 7:38:53 AM

khem

Posts: 300
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline

Sometimes I wish CM made use of those labels. I can't tell you the number of times I have seen posts from people who are looking for tops, but are solely *masochistic tops or masochistic normal* , but NOT submissives. But when they ask, we all chime in with advice on how to be submissive.

Not that it's a bad thing to be trying to convert more people to be submissive... it's just not everyone's thing and CM lists bottoms as either submissives or slaves.

I am definitely a sadist and a dominant, but if CM had enough check boxes I'd also be a situational masochist as well.

Titles are complicated, but they do help let others know in a fast (if not confusing) way where you stand.

(in reply to Madame4a)

Post #: 3

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/22/2008 8:01:48 AM

Kirren

Posts: 580
Joined: 9/5/2007
Status: offline

I think I have to agree with Madame4a I dont think about the label, tho in My profile on the flip side youll see that I have Myself stated as a Sadist....and I am...I enjoy giving pain. But at the same time, I also take pain, even in session with My kitten. I do this by watching her in pain, and knowing that she is almost in tears, if not fully so....or by using the wax on her back with My hands, and not just dripping it on there. So that her pain becomes My pain and we bond thru that pain.

I mean there are a thousand different ways to look at life, and what people are. I think that the need to put labels on people is really a way to define some one...so that you think you can look at them and by saying "ah yes..shes the one thats a submissive sadist...I know exactly whats going on with her" it would give you a way to relate to an otherwise unrelatable person. And the fact is no matter what label you put on some one...you wont be able to relate to what really makes them who they are. Just because you know or share that label with them, you wont have the ability to predict if they like white or dark chocolate, or if they like ranch or french dressing. Or if they like summer or winter better....

I think labels as a whole are another way we have become lazy. If you know what some one is labled as, or think you know, then in some way it takes the work out of having to get to know them. I mean...look at CM...they make Domme's red, subs ligher blue or pink and Dom's dark blue...so you can even know what the person may or may not want before you open that mail, and in the instant that you see that, you can prejudge your reaction. Even if you dont openly admit that, its what you are doing. "Oh look...Im a Domme...and some dumbass Dom is emailing Me...what the hell is he thinking?" When in reality the poor guy may be asking for directions to the mens room....

Lables take away the guess work invloved in getting to know some one. They make a relationship into a microwave meal...its done in under three minutes....maybe not to your liking, but it is. And thats stupid. Its better to have to work to get to know some one, and where they come from and what makes them who they are, so that you appreciate what and who that person is.

And to answer your question...a truely intresting person would cross lables, cross dress, cross thread, and cross barriers at every chance....just to be something unique and to be an individual.

_____________________________

Everything has been said before
There's nothing left to say anymore
When it's all the same
You can ask for it by name

Did I fail to mention...I am a BITCH?

(in reply to khem)

Post #: 4

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/22/2008 10:52:21 AM

Shawn1066

Posts: 987
Joined: 10/7/2007
Status: offline

Those labels are even too restrictive for some people. What about a Dominant who's sadistic and masochistic? Or how about a submissive who wants the same? There are some people that don't fit so neatly into the boxes. Lets not even start on the fact that there's no room for switches, who are also be normal, sadistic, or masochistic.

People don't necessarly fit into the categorys. I do, but others don't. :-p

DV's Fox

< Message edited by Shawn1066 -- 3/22/2008 10:53:43 AM >

(in reply to Kirren)

Post #: 5

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/22/2008 11:36:53 AM

LadyEnglish

Posts: 4
Joined: 9/9/2005
From: Grand Rapids, MI
Status: offline

A label belongs on a can or jar at the grocery store!

~ Lady English
"Beat me" said the Masochist. "NO!" said the Sadist.....

(in reply to Araven)

Post #: 6

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/22/2008 3:54:45 PM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

I am not a label fan, but I do trot out Midori's ideas when someone gets all appalled by the idea of a submissive topping, or a dom enjoying pain play....there is such a wide range of what people like to do, why not explore new definitions?

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to LadyEnglish)

Post #: 7

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/22/2008 4:04:13 PM

Araven

Posts: 149
Joined: 3/16/2006
Status: offline

Thank you for all the great replies, Im not a big fan of labels myself either, but I kind of like how this opens up the idea of discussion and posabilities. Of course I agree that nobody can ever neatly fit into a "box" or a certain "label". I myself often don't think that I fit into one of those boxes so neatly, its a combination of several things =).

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 8

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/22/2008 7:20:32 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

There's nothing wrong with labels. There is a problem (too often) when the labels are misunderstood and, therefore, misused. It causes people who are interested in BDSM, D/s or M/s to misrepresent themselves.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to Araven)

Post #: 9

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/22/2008 7:22:59 PM

Boondoggle

Posts: 123
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline

Labels are how humans survive in this world. We're subconsciously always compartmentalizing our experiences. It's human nature to do so. Furthermore, it's necessary on a site where people are trying to meet others with whom they are compatible. Labels, themselves, aren't the problem. The problem comes from people assuming that because someone uses a label, they automatically do or don't have certain qualities that are often, but not always associated with that label, or worse, that someone can or can't have qualities because of the label they use.

_____________________________

You see I'm not the kind of fella'
who can get off on vanilla.
No I need a little color in my sex.
--The Wet Spots

(in reply to Araven)

Post #: 10

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/22/2008 7:28:06 PM

Lynnxz

Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline

Hehe... the first thing I think of when I hear "Dominant Masochist" is the guy that loves it when the sub unconsciously claws his back/arm wtf-ever during sex.

(in reply to Boondoggle)

Post #: 11

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/22/2008 8:56:19 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

You've left out of your graph those of us who like sensation play that isn't pain play. We're bondage freaks here.

That aside, I really see very little difference between someone wanting a foot massage or a heavier foot massage with an implement- that's commonly called bastinado. Or someone who likes shiatsu for a back massage, or a flogger for the back massage. Shiatsu can be more painful than a lightweight flogger. It's okay for him to sprain a muscle and ask for an ice pack but it wouldn't be okay to ask for ice for sexual arousal? I don't know who makes these rules.

But I rarely find that doing activities that are fun and hot are required for me to feel submissive. I feel just as submissive when he tells me not to get the strawberry ice cream but to buy chocolate marshmallow instead. All it takes is for him to take the lead to inspire me to follow.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to Lynnxz)

Post #: 12

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/23/2008 12:34:39 PM

Ariane23

Posts: 88
Joined: 12/2/2007
Status: offline

Dear dear dear. People do like to shove everything into little boxes, don't they?

Dominant and submissive are personality roles, while sadism and masochism relate to physical expression. The difference is in how you approach it.

I am completely Dominate, I don't do sub in any way shape or form. But I do enjoy sensations, why should the sub have all the fun? It's all a matter of who is in control. If I want a little endorphin high, I may well shove a flogger into my subbies hands and tell him what to do with it. He'll stop when I tell him to. Probably a lot sooner than I would stop when doing him, but one does enjoy a taste every so often, and I do like to try out all my new toys to ascertain their exact effect.

< Message edited by Ariane23 -- 3/23/2008 12:35:36 PM >

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 13

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/23/2008 2:30:03 PM

sirguym

Posts: 318
Joined: 8/10/2007
Status: offline

Yes Dominant masochists exist, and submissive sadists, I've met them; but the point is that only defines a person at a given point in time.

There is every kind of switch too and many variations between. A useful shorthand, but only a model of much more complex reality.

(in reply to Ariane23)

Post #: 14

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/23/2008 10:16:40 PM

MistressTaboo

Posts: 147
Joined: 6/10/2005
Status: offline

I think another problem is we aren't the same all the time and in all places...
I think most people are about 80% Dom or Sub...the other % might be vanilla or BDSM or sexual or not...It's hard to say I'm a sadistic Domme...if I'm playing men...I can't play or hurt a woman...no matter how much of a painslut I know her to be...It's MY hard limit...I found this out the hard way...But I can beat the living tar out of a man and torture him nine ways to Sunday...so I'm not always a sadistic Domme...

I'm not a pain slut...but I do like fireplay...from only one Dom...we have established rules and boundaries and all is good...I can relax..But that's as close to subbing as I'll ever get.

My slave is only a submissive to women...and only my slave...does that mean he's not a submissive or not a masochist? Nah...but he's a bigger pain slut if I'm doing CBT then canning...He's a very Dom person if you put him in a room full of men. Very competative and macho...you'd think he was a Dom...

Labels don't always fit all the time...give me an off night...and you never know what I might be...

_____________________________

"I'm a bitch, I'm a lover, I'm a child, I'm a mother, I'm a sinner, I'm a saint, I do not feel ashamed" Meredith Brooks

(in reply to sirguym)

Post #: 15

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 3/24/2008 2:37:52 AM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

I work with these labels. I am a Master, Dominant, Top and bottom. For my tribe, the usual definitions are that Top/bottom are physical roles, Dominant/submissive are mental roles and Master/slave are spiritual roles. I know that doesn't ring true for everyone, but that's what I work with and have for several years.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to Araven)

Post #: 16

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 4/30/2008 8:33:43 AM

BumbleBee2MsP

Posts: 37
Joined: 1/7/2006
Status: offline

All this talk about lables seems too cold and academic. Like reaserch and statistics 485. i'm glad i serve a Mistress that reads Her slave and does What She wants, instead of placing me on some bell graff. i don't like pain but Mistress Persephone makes me like it. i hate bondage but Mistress makes me like it. She is Dominant in all things and i am submissive to Her desire. What other lable is needed?

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 17

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 4/30/2008 9:31:32 AM

DominantJenny

Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Araven

So sorry for the long post, but I wanted to know: How many of you take on these mixed labels? What is your life-path like? Have you switched boxes before? Are you a submissive sadist, or a dominant maso? have you switched roles mid scene? Perhaps this little bit of knowledge I learned, can help others in expressing their own desires and kinks.

I've thought about this sort of thing myself. I'm not even the slightest bit submissive, but I do have a very small masochistic streak; I can appreciate the pleasure in pain and indulge in it myself from time to time, but only ever from a dominant position. I am, however, MUCH more sadistic than masochistic...sadism is required for me, masochism is a take-it-or-leave-it fun-every-one-in-a-while kind of thing.

I think few people rigidly fit any label, but I do believe labels have value nevertheless. :)

(in reply to Araven)

Post #: 18

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 4/30/2008 12:18:22 PM

ShaktiSama

Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

*wanders in, looks for the box marked "freak", fails to find it, leaves*

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to DominantJenny)

Post #: 19

RE: The Challange of Labels: A Dominant Masochist and S... - 4/30/2008 12:22:26 PM

DominantJenny

Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

*wanders in, looks for the box marked "freak", fails to find it, leaves*

Hey, wait...*points over there* It's so FRICKIN' HUGE you don't even realize it's a box sometimes...:) But I spend an awful lot of time in that box, and it's a rawther nice place.

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

Post #: 20

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