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Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/23/2008 1:50:59 PM   
saret


Posts: 71
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		I don't post in this section much, but I thought I could use some advice on a sticky situation of some dear friends of mine.

The situation: Cat and Erik. Boy meets girl, boy and girl fall madly in love. They have a wonderful, healthy, loving relationship, and are currently living together. Both of them are in their mid-late 20's, and have had a large amount of BDSM experience, especially for people of their age. Erik is Dominant, Cat is submissive.
Cat had a very rough childhood, with parents who were emotionally abusive and tended to abandon her. She didnt let this get her down, and she's a strong, independant lady, working and going to school. She had many vanilla relationships, but only one serious D/s relationship with a Master when she was younger, and the relationship ended badly. She's played extensively, and is active in the local bdsm community, but hasn't actually served someone since then.
Now, the main issue is that while she desperately wants to serve, and be trained in a more formal way, when she's actually put in that situation, she completely panics and freaks out. Due to past issues, because there's a deep emotional involvement between her and Erik, there's much more at stake, and she can't deal with it. But she can enjoy sexual and BDSM situations just fine when she's not emotionally involved.
She's gone to therapy in the past for unrelated issues, but its not really an option right now because of her schedule and finances, or lack thereof.
Meanwhile, she does everything she can to make Erik happy, and make sure all his needs and wants are met. She cooks most of his meals, gives him massages, takes him out to dinner, brings him gifts, asks him what he wants. But when he tries to assert his control over her, ie. "Do what I say because I say", or punishes her for doing something wrong, she either completely panics, like a full-on anxiety attack, or turns it into a screaming argument.
Needless to say, this frustrates both of them immensely. They have a great dynamic otherwise. Erik loves her dearly, he's been patient with her, they've been trying to work through this off and on for about a year now. Trying to push her past that point only makes things much worse. While they didn't play often to begin with, he's gotten so frustrated he doesn't even want to play at all anymore.
This also tears Cat up. While she wants to accept his authority, and struggles to swallow her reactions, its almost an instictive thing and she reacts before she can control it.
I've talked about it with her countless times, and its terrible to watch someone fight with themselves so much they can't achieve what they want, when they're an amzing person able to achive nearly anything else.

So .... maybe someone on here has more experience with this, or has overcome it themselves, so any advice would be deeply appreciated!

-S-

Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/23/2008 2:17:22 PM   
BabyDollVanIsle


Posts: 103
Joined: 10/27/2007
Status: offline 		Cat and Eric are really really lucky they found each other.

Cat is having such an enormously difficult time BECAUSE Eric is someone that deep down she knows she can trust and who can get her past this. He is triggering this reaction because on a deep level, she already knows he is the one to be her Master.. and she can no longer detach, she actually has to be real.

They just have to have patience with each other, keep being together, and when approproate for their schedule and finances, get some BDSM friendly help with her issues, and let time and love work its healing magic.

(in reply to saret)
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RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/23/2008 2:17:46 PM   
Sirsinini


Posts: 172
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline 		Dont tie the 2 theories together as if one joins some sort of cult to continue the abuse from the past.

I had to discover I sabatoge my submissive nature by reactionary passive aggression, a form of internal control over what I fear.  There are many types of fears.

One does not dream of going from one type of abuse into another type of abuse with an emotional, physical or sexual sadist.

If you have issues with authority and control.... try evaluating why....then move on.
I guarantee you will be a happier woman in any relationship.

saying this looking back.....
Sir's submissive

(in reply to saret)
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RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/23/2008 2:30:54 PM   
lilabbotsfordgrl


Posts: 140
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline 		That's a very, very interesting story.  Afraid we don't have much to add right now, but we're interested to follow along.

(in reply to Sirsinini)
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RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/23/2008 2:34:42 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		First, Cat and Erik should go to counselling. Depending on where they reside, there may be free counseling options, and I encourage you to encourage them to explore all such options.

Second, "swallowing her reactions" is most assuredly a wrong thing to do. He needs to learn to address these reactions from the dominant's view of things, she needs to bring these reactions to the surface where she can explore them and their origins, and learn to let go of them.

Thirdly, they both need to sit down and talk, perhaps even stepping outside of the dynamic to do so. Cat is not reacting to Erik, but to previous bad actors in her past.

D/s is not a curative for past abuse. As a good and caring man, Erik can help her heal herself of these wounds, but love, compassion, and empathy are what will do that, not D/s.

_____________________________



(in reply to saret)
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RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/23/2008 2:35:04 PM   
saret


Posts: 71
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		sirsinini,

Passive agressiveness is a big part of self sabatoge, but in this case, I think, its more a case of being terrified of real, geniune trust and opening up emotionally.

And while a person doesn't want to move from one abuser to the next, subconsious actions and attractions do draw people into pattens they're familar with. "He's abusive! Why not leave him?" "Because I love him" (translation: because its more comfortable to be with something familiar).

And I think, at a very basic level, subs crave order and strength. This strength comes from self-discipline, which is slowly instilled in them by their dom's teaching and training.
I think this is true for nearly all subs, whether or not they were abused in the past.

(in reply to Sirsinini)
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RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/23/2008 2:36:16 PM   
immoral


Posts: 99
Joined: 6/9/2006
Status: offline 		do  not strive to be ...just be.... some of the best advice i ever had...sometimes its a matter of relaxation and taking tiny steps ,plenty of smiles. we all have knee jerk reactions to things. the more the pressure  the more  the kneejerk sometimes.
better to dwell on whats  good not whats bad and slowly with support the gap  might well be breached...maybe allowing her the chance to talk things through and come to her own  guided conclusions about punishment etc would help negate that  in the short term... i always found the" we have a problem  here, are you sure that you have done as ive asked you?" worked better than do what  i say because... it allows you  to  check yourself without the external  force to beat against....takes some of the  emotional pressure out of the initial thought process and can allow a calmer deliberation............more horse whisperer than horse breaker.

(in reply to Sirsinini)
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RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/23/2008 2:47:41 PM   
MisterP61


Posts: 1345
Joined: 10/9/2007
Status: offline 		Hmmmm.  My two cents for what it is worth...not much to many worth much to few.

It seems to Me that the parents in this situation have installed a few buttons into the said submissive (cat).  Every time one is pushed the reaction is automatic.  The thing to learn (and from experience I know this) is how to disable those buttons by changing the reaction to their pushing.  Unfortunately the only way is how you are doing it, by actually having them pushed and working through threm.  If cats reactions get less volatile (for lack of a better word), then progress is being made and that is all that can be asked.  Like BabyDoll said.... it will take time and patience.  I too shall follow this thread, and I do wish you the best and a happy outcome.

MP


_____________________________

Proudly married to the "Diva of Destruction" LadyPact
Though the truth may vary, this ship will carry our bodies safe to shore - Of Monsters and Men
What is the maximum effective range of an excuse? Zero meters!

(in reply to lilabbotsfordgrl)
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RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/23/2008 3:20:57 PM   
MasterLDesade


Posts: 67
Joined: 2/22/2007
Status: offline 		Sarat , Greetings  did you get my private message?. Help is on the way , Mistress Mercia and myself are quailfied in this area and some  ,. Mistress has asked me to  contact you  in regards to same.....Master LDeSade
MisterP61 sorry for directing the reply to yourself ........Bloody Glass's where are they .

< Message edited by MasterLDesade -- 3/23/2008 3:26:05 PM >

(in reply to MisterP61)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/23/2008 3:48:53 PM   
MisterP61


Posts: 1345
Joined: 10/9/2007
Status: offline 		LOL.... I do the same thing... I just pick the last post and reply. 

MP

PS.... I think I found Your glasses


_____________________________

Proudly married to the "Diva of Destruction" LadyPact
Though the truth may vary, this ship will carry our bodies safe to shore - Of Monsters and Men
What is the maximum effective range of an excuse? Zero meters!

(in reply to MasterLDesade)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/23/2008 5:13:58 PM   
daddyncherry


Posts: 656
Joined: 10/9/2007
Status: offline 		Not sure if this will make any sense, but i'm gonna try anyway....

i reacted the way your descirbe cat acting in the OP in my past relationship, it was one thing when it was on my terms, much differnt when he tried to order me around.

With my Daddy it has been entirely different, he has allowed me to kind of just flow, and in doing so, like cat, i do things in hopes of being pleasing.........Especially at the beginning i see where this was really a smart move on his part...Althought at the time it freaked me out that there wasn't more overt control.........What it did was allow him to see what i would do, how i would act, as a matter of course....it also gave me the chance to actively submit, rather than just doing as i was told...........everytime i did something it was a chance to submit of my own free will.

That being said, it happened much differently and more intensely than when i was told to do all of this stuff by my ex.....and there was nothing to have reactance about...........Now, it is a no brainer if he tells me to do something/not do something directly.


_____________________________

Hugs,
cherry

Walking through life, and fear with a smile on my face.
Walking directly through the eye of the hurricane...and through to the other side..without fear....realizing everything will be okay. :)

being obedient 1day at a time

(in reply to MisterP61)
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RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/23/2008 8:37:56 PM   
warrenwriter


Posts: 43
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline 		I'd recommend counseling for Cat, with some sessions involving Erik. He needs to understand where she is, but the problem resides with her past, and his presence in the sessions is likely to just increase her anxiety rather than let the counselor and Cat work at finding a solution. Erik needs patience and understanding and a community that can support him, and it sounds like he has it in friends like you, Saret.

(in reply to daddyncherry)
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RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/23/2008 8:39:04 PM   
angelbluewingsz


Posts: 324
Joined: 10/10/2004
Status: offline 		I'm sorry, I can't help.

(in reply to warrenwriter)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/24/2008 6:56:17 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Does Eric require to be able to punish someone in order to feel fulfilled? Because not every d/s relationship uses a dynamic based on obedience and punishment.

Mine doesn't. I do things to please him and he motivates me with positive reinforcement only. He uses please and thank you. He doesn't bark orders and he doesn't punish. I do things he tells me he needs me to do for him. If I don't or can't, we talk it out. We talk out the why. And I'm given a learning curve to learn to do things. I'm not expected to be perfect overnight, simply to keep trying, and keep asking him for help.

The basis of my relationship is emotional transparency not obedience at any cost. Eric needs to learn to motivate her in the way she best responds to, not in the way his last sub did.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to angelbluewingsz)
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RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/25/2008 9:04:41 AM   
saret


Posts: 71
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		MasterLdesade ... I totally did not get any private message from you.

Maybe try again?

(in reply to MasterLDesade)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/25/2008 9:14:26 AM   
saret


Posts: 71
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		Interesting ... and very relevant -

In "Question regarding trust",  ownedgirlie(7859,0,0,false,"","") writes:

I was beaten severely with a belt as a child.  Even removing my Master's belt for him while undressing him had me trembling.  Like you, I very much wanted to overcome my former traumas.  I spoke to him about this...I told him I would very much like to get to a point where he can whip me with his belt, without feeling traumatized by my past.  So he worked with me on it, for which I am grateful.
First, he wanted me to express to him precisely what had happened in my past.  This meant explaining the environment I was in, the circumstances around it, what led up to it, what exactly happened, how I felt before, during and after it happened, and what goes through my mind every time I thought about it in present day times.

I was then to visualize him belting me.  In doing this imagery, I would write it all out in story form - and in doing so, I would put my mind in that moment, and write about everything I thought and felt.  I would visualize success at this.  In fact, in preparing me for anything that was new and "on edge" for me, I would be required to visualize the activity with a successful outcome and write about it.

He introduced the belt to me slowly.  I spent about 2 months in imagery (off and on, not total!) as we both explored my thoughts.  He would remove his belt and have me hold it...smell it...kiss it...befriend it.  I thought of his belt as its own entity, not as a weapon in my mother's hand.  When the day came for my actual belting, I was to offer it to him, kissing it first before lifting it up to him, and I was instructed to bend over the bed.

Sure, I trembled a bit.  He draped the belt over me...running it lightly down my shoulders, back, hips, bottom and legs.  He did this repeatedly and seductively until I was relaxed and focused.  He slipped it in under my mouth and ordered me to kiss it again, and I did.  And then he stepped back and gave me a very light hit.  The light hit, of course, felt like a severe strike and had me cry out in fear as my mind reeled back to "those days".  But as instantly as I went there, I came back.  I immediately remembered this tool is in my Master's hand, and my Master is safe.  My Mother was not in control, and my Master is.  My Mother meant to do me harm, and my Master does not. 

I relaxed and gave into it.  He continued striking lightly, although just a tad harder each time.  At one point he stopped to ask, "What are you thinking and feeling?"  Another time he stopped and said "Is that enough or do you need more?"  To my surprised, I asked for more, please.

The next couple of times he belted me he was just as delicate.  Now it is no longer an issue for me.  In fact, now I beg him to, and once while I was on the floor being belted, I kissed his feet and thanked him after each strike. 

So that was a really long story, but I wanted to express that you can indeed overcome, if you are gentle about it, honest about it, and willing to realize the person who you give yourself to now is not the person who hurt you (for whatever reason) in the past.  Hopefully the one you are with will know and understand how to help you through this, as you seem to not want to limit yourself this way.

I wish you well...trauma is just that - trauma - and while it can be overcome, it is not easy to do so.

_____________________________

Limitless undying love which
shines around me like a million suns
It calls me on and on across the universe

~Lennon/McCartney

(in reply to saret)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/25/2008 9:25:19 AM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I go through this periodically with Angel. He has a huge interest in humiliation and control, but his parents (or,at least his Mother) conditoned him to have very emotionless responses to all forms of humiliation. When he was younger, he was told he had to be the man, and was reminded often how worthless he was becasue he was less than perfect (he has some minor physical defects). I think for a while he really believed it.
When I got him, he told me of his interest in the humiliation, however I hit buttons every time we tried that would just turn him off emotionally. It was his defense mechanism.
What I had to do is sit down with him, as soon as the button was hit, and talk to him about what just happened. Find out what caused it, and explain how I was not Her. Remind him that his being worthless to me ended when the scene ended and assure him that even if thigns have to progress very slowly, I was not going to give him up just becasue there were a few rocky areas in our time together.
It has taken almost 2 years for us to get past it. We are just about at the point where I can go an entire scene with him without hitting any of his little trigger words and losing him. Even if I do, I can now bring him back.

What Eric and Cat need to do is make the effort at the very time something goes wrong to sit down and examine it. Not go back to it once everyone is calm... but more along the times of. "Ok, why are you feeling this way now, what caused it and what can I do to change it" while she is in the moment.

DV


_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to saret)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Childhood abuse and BDSM - 3/25/2008 11:06:27 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: saret
Meanwhile, she does everything she can to make Erik happy, and make sure all his needs and wants are met. She cooks most of his meals, gives him massages, takes him out to dinner, brings him gifts, asks him what he wants. But when he tries to assert his control over her, ie. "Do what I say because I say", or punishes her for doing something wrong, she either completely panics, like a full-on anxiety attack, or turns it into a screaming argument.
Needless to say, this frustrates both of them immensely. They have a great dynamic otherwise. Erik loves her dearly, he's been patient with her, they've been trying to work through this off and on for about a year now. Trying to push her past that point only makes things much worse. While they didn't play often to begin with, he's gotten so frustrated he doesn't even want to play at all anymore. This also tears Cat up. While she wants to accept his authority, and struggles to swallow her reactions, its almost an instictive thing and she reacts before she can control it.


To avoid a trap we have to understand how it was made, or in the very least, know where it may lie. I'm often struck by how well one understands the structures of his or her personal trappings, yet refuses to climb out of them when all signs say they must. For lack of understanding we will certainly fail, but why do we fail when we understand full well? Somewhere hidden in the mix I often suspect there is a choice not to succeed being made. One might blame it on the absence of enough incentive and leadership to evolve, and this may be the case here, but I likewise feel many need to come clean and avow to keep the bullshit—and the drama—to a minimum. If you can see the reasons why you're having behavioral difficulty, you're already well on your way toward working on overcoming it or making the decision to find a new path, but revelation without change before long requires a lot of explaining.



< Message edited by amayos -- 3/25/2008 11:13:40 AM >

(in reply to saret)
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