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Learning to be a better sub - 3/23/2008 7:02:11 PM

CdnExplorer

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Joined: 2/12/2007
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I got to experience a wonderful mind fuck via interrogation scene recently. I got some real personal growth out of it, in the form of really feeling an acceptance for a certain level of control. That said, there are some things that happened which are bothering me. After a short night's sleep I was tied to a chair, and eventually was immobilized to the point where getting any rest would be impossible. Part of that was having a wide metal collar tied to the back of the chair to keep my head from dropping forward.

Now I'd like to clarify first that while I've known this Domme for a while and play with her on a regular basis, I'm not collared. It's a complicated situation; she's a switch and a slave in an M/s relationship, and I'm just letting her decide where this all goes. No commitments etc. In any case over the last 5 months I've developed a great deal of trust in her...more so than I've ever felt with anyone. That said when she was tying the collar back, it pulled into my throat enough to cut down airflow. I could still breathe and it was almost certainly a short term thing until the process was completed...but I got scared that it wasn't and started complaining. She's been in the scene for a long time, very smart and knows what she's doing, so I didn't really feel like I was in any danger. Later when we were having our post scene discussion she told me how much that had turned her off the scene, and felt like I didn't trust her. It's bothering the hell out of me, because not only did it put a black mark on a scene she spent weeks planning but in an instant I allowed a momentary fear to subvert my trust. Trust for me is kind of a rare thing, so having let go of it so easily has me a bit upset.

Much earlier in the scene some general fear under the surface, caused by the scene in general, triggered one of my defense mechanisms. Namely sarcasm / humor, which turned her off. I wasn't aware of what I was actually doing, but now that I know I'm pretty sure I can recognize when it happens and control the impulse. I think I can do the same with the complaining, but I'm not sure. It all happened very quickly and I'm not convinced I'll catch it before I say anything.

We've talked about this and some of the underlying issues that caused the reactions. Oddly the result of the mind fuck at the end helped me to get past a lot of that. I'm wondering though if anyone had similar issues when they were new, and how you dealt with it?

Post #: 1

RE: Learning to be a better sub - 3/23/2008 8:01:41 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Yeah feeling really hot and turned on makes people forgive a lot of things for awhile. It doesn't matter how many years you've been playing, people make mistakes. It doesn't matter how much you trust her- communicating your feelings is necessary for a good relationship and a good scene. If she doesn't want to be questioned, she needs to either officially become omniscient and omnipotent or stop playing. Her foisting feelinhg badly on you and blaming your questioning simply damages the relationship.

Now, if she was honestly only communicating "Hey, trust me, I knew what was going on and you've got to learn to calm down a little bit" then that's one thing. Only you can decide which it was- or go ask her.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to CdnExplorer)

Post #: 2

RE: Learning to be a better sub - 3/23/2008 8:07:04 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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If she isn't willing to accept that people can and will have bad reactions, she shouldn't be doing this. What would have happened if instead of a moment of defensiveness, you had a flashback? Would she still have been so turned off that she couldn't have given you the comfort you could have needed? What if you were really choking, unable to breathe? Would she have been so lost in her own snit of you ruining her fun that she would have let you choke to death?

Doesn't sound to me like someone I'd play with. Not someone I could develop trust in.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 3

RE: Learning to be a better sub - 3/23/2008 8:26:39 PM

CdnExplorer

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Joined: 2/12/2007
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Sorry, I should have specified that she wasn't upset at all that I told her what was happening, but the way I did it. I sorta started blurting things out in a way that wasn't calm at all. It didn't ruin the scene for her at all, but in the moment she found the way I acted unattractive. We've talked about it at some length already, and what I'm looking for experiences others have had at keeping their cool and not allowing an impulse like that to control you.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 4

RE: Learning to be a better sub - 3/23/2008 8:40:10 PM

Boondoggle

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Joined: 5/16/2005
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If you find the magic decoder ring that tells you how, let us know, as I think there are lots of people everywhere who would like to know how to control impulsive behavior...

My point (snarky comment aside) is that it's not something you can really do to control. What she could do, however, was comfort and reassure you so as to assuage your fears. If anything, that would build more trust and establish a deeper connection.

_____________________________

You see I'm not the kind of fella'
who can get off on vanilla.
No I need a little color in my sex.
--The Wet Spots

(in reply to CdnExplorer)

Post #: 5

RE: Learning to be a better sub - 3/23/2008 9:00:19 PM

Maya2001

Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
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quote:

Later when we were having our post scene discussion she told me how much that had turned her off the scene, and felt like I didn't trust her. It's bothering the hell out of me, because not only did it put a black mark on a scene she spent weeks planning but in an instant I allowed a momentary fear to subvert my trust.

To me the above is your mind fuck and it now has shakened your own self confidence and making you feel like a terrible sub as a result.

Some people are terrified of getting a vaccination , they may start hyperventilating, struggle against, cry, some will start telling jokes ..there are a number of different methods people try using to cope with their fears.... Just because some people are afraid of getting the needle does not mean they fear or don't trust their doctor or nurse who is giving it to them.....it's the needle that scares them.

In your case it was the sensation of not getting air/pressure on that caused you to panic.

with some subs Doms actually do try to create that type form of fear in a scene (the subs do 100% trust their Dom/mes not to harm them ) because many subs do get off on fear causing them to orgasm, this is why some people do knife play and breath play/ rapes scenes etc in order to create fear.

So what I am saying is just because you experienced some fear in the activities that occured in the scene it does not have to equate with not trusting your Domme

So quit beating yourself up over it and stop trying to phycho analyze the situation and thinking of yourself as a bad sub just because you bit of a reaction

< Message edited by Maya2001 -- 3/23/2008 9:02:43 PM >

_____________________________

Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

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Post #: 6

RE: Learning to be a better sub - 3/24/2008 3:22:45 AM

michelleryder

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Joined: 5/18/2007
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I think Mayas right. I've been with master close to four years now and trust him completely but i still sometimes freak a bit when my breathings restricted and get panicky. Rather than being turned off by it he talks to me reassures etc until the panic passes. I dont feel it makes me or anyone else a bad sub/slave that they sometimes react its just one of those things.

(in reply to Maya2001)

Post #: 7

RE: Learning to be a better sub - 3/24/2008 4:10:42 AM

CdnExplorer

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Joined: 2/12/2007
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Well, the problem isn't so much the fear. The mind fuck was actually the choice I had to make during the scene, but I see what you mean. I'm quite sure she'd have fear like that as a goal in scenes, since on some level fear is exciting for me. I don't think I was really at panic level though, so I should have been able to keep my head. I suppose it's something I'll just get used to in time.

You're also right Maya, in that the fear doesn't mean not trusting. As I thought about this post later on the phrasing around letting go of my trust just didn't feel right. In any case I'm not so much looking for advice as to what to do about it, since that's something she will handle if it's a problem. One idea she had was to start using some submissive protocols, since at the moment we use none. That could help reinforce the headspace enough that I won't lose it when I get a little shot of fear. I was mainly interested in the experiences of others.

(in reply to michelleryder)

Post #: 8

RE: Learning to be a better sub - 3/24/2008 7:34:14 AM

littlebitxxx

Posts: 732
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I have no help for you pretty much because I'm the same way. A knee-jerk response or reaction to such a primal emotion as fear is usually the honest one. Some people just have different ways of expressing than others. Mine is also sarcastic and snarky, sometimes biting. But to let that affect the Top's own state of mind I think is wrong. It's like holding someone accountable for what they do in their sleep. If you know and she knows that this is the type of reaction you express during times of psychological stress (fear, frustration, borderline panic, past trauma triggers) then she can expect it and just move past it. Like if someone has a huge phobia about spiders that can result in a panic attack, you're not gonna mindfuck them with spiders...that's abuse in my eyes. And the reaction you would get may be "unattractive" but so what? You caused it, you can't complain about it.

_____________________________

There is no such thing as can't unless it is followed by yet

It is the meaningless little acts that become meaningful in the doing.

The people that mind don't matter and the people that matter don't mind.

(in reply to CdnExplorer)

Post #: 9

RE: Learning to be a better sub - 3/24/2008 8:45:11 AM

WalterRego

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I think you're doing exactly what you should. First telling her, explaining your reactions, listening to hers, and discussing possible ways to deal with it in the future. If the idea is, as the thread title says, learning to become a better sub, that's the way to do it. Many times it can't be done at the moment, but only afterwards.

I'm not sure thought that any sort of protocols or anything else will totally eliminate fears, those are instinctive.

I do have a question though. Some (many?) Tops or Dommes like the fear and expression of it in a sub in a scene which was supposed to be a "mindfuck". So I'm a little unclear about what upset her. Where you expressing your fear or were you were "complaining" i.e. - coming out of the scene. Perhaps in your fear you left the context of the scene or began topping from the bottom, telling her how to affix the collar properly. If it was a true interrogation, I doubt that you'd have "complained" to your captor, interrogator about how they went about torturing you. You say that you didn't really feel like you were in any danger. If so, then you weren't really in any fear. So why were you complaining. There must have been some other dynamic in play.

On the other hand, if those were your genuine reactions, including the complaining and sarcasm, then I'm not sure she had any legitimate claim to be be turned off by them. It was a mindfuck, and the Domme or Top has to be prepared to deal with the reactions it may evoke. It almost sounds as though she were expecting you to react and please her in a certain way. And repose a great deal of trust in her. In which case she may have been expecting far too much given the nature of your fairly casual, play only relationship. Besides, it sounds like, from what you wrote, that you did, swollow your fears, show your trust and go along with what she wanted to do. In that sense, you were working on your submission, or as you call it, learning to be a better submissive.

It's great that you want to learn how to be a better sub, but learning applies to Dommes and Tops too.

(in reply to littlebitxxx)

Post #: 10

RE: Learning to be a better sub - 3/24/2008 10:01:57 AM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
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If she is making you feel guilty about the fear you had as you thought you were about to be choked... I would question what her actual understanding of scene related fear is.I would certainly question my emotional safety with someone who complained that you being afraid of her ruined the scene for her.

That line of thinking ends with a bottom actively miscommunicating their honest emotions to their Top in a scene. This ends only with disaster.

and with reagrd to yourself ... fears like the kind you have when you are choking or think you are going to choke are NOT RATIONAL.I am a britlle asthmatic that means I could choke on something right now and die ...this cup of tea could actually kill me if it "went down wrong". I have arrived in A&E departments before because I starting laughing too hard and it made me choke. I know this, He knows this,I know He knows this.I knowHe doesn't want to have to explain away a dead slut. I know that at some point something will happen when I will belive with every fibre of my being that He is trying to intentionally choke and kill me. Stupid and irational yes, will it pass, also yes. Should I be blamed for a million years of evolution telling me I am about to die because I cant breath. NO. Should a Top understand that some fears are pure instinct and have the strength to not let that rain on their parade...YES

< Message edited by softness -- 3/24/2008 10:02:56 AM >

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veritas, respectus honorque in corio

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Post #: 11

RE: Learning to be a better sub - 3/24/2008 10:38:40 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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Your reactions were honest and real. Would she rather you lied to her for the sake of her ego?

You aren't at fault here. The truth is, she doesn't know enough. She ought to be topping under the direction of someone who can handle these things, and therefore learn how. It wasn't your fault and it isn't your job not to panic when you can't breath.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to softness)

Post #: 12

RE: Learning to be a better sub - 3/24/2008 12:32:40 PM

CdnExplorer

Posts: 227
Joined: 2/12/2007
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I'd just like to reiterate once again that she wasn't upset that I acted on the fear, but how I did it. Walter has it right, I left the context of the scene and for a moment tried to top from the bottom. It wasn't the "normal" interrogation really. Basically I had to either deal with 16 hours of being immobilized, without having eaten since the night before (and whatever other torments she felt like applying). I could get out of it though by giving up the combination for the lock which I had set right before we started. The consequence from that was either breaking a hard limit, or 3 soft limits which she had carefully chosen from my list. Those limits really were based on holding myself back, and after some discussion of why those things were difficult for me etc I ended up talking myself into accepting control over those 3 things. I had accepted control on an intellectual level and knew I wanted it, but I didn't actually feel it yet. Since this scene it's like there's this tension inside me that's just not there anymore. Oh and the big part of the mindfuck was that she had no intention of actually following through. It was all about forcing me to make a choice, and now that I think about it seeing how resistant I was to those activities.

So no roleplaying or anything, but I certainly did step outside of the submissive headspace when I started telling her to loosen the collar. She was very clear that she wants me to communicate these things, but to do it respectfully. She knew exactly what she was doing and I could still breathe easily. The worst part really is that her allergies to my cat were making it difficult for her to breathe lol, so she had it worse off than I did. We talked again this morning and decided that I'll likely learn to deal with it in time. Being aware of what state of mine I was in at the time will help, as will her reminders when it happens again.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 13

RE: Learning to be a better sub - 3/25/2008 4:45:59 AM

Sundowner

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Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CdnExplorer
...
I'm wondering though if anyone had similar issues when they were new, and how you dealt with it?

Hey not just when I was new! I still find that to enjoy a scene it helps to have the right mindset and something noticeably off-topic, or varying an agreed limit, can upset that; not always but enough to notice. In a worst case to the extent that I simply don't want to play any more and (mentally) throw my toys out of the pram.

(in reply to CdnExplorer)

Post #: 14

RE: Learning to be a better sub - 3/25/2008 5:33:45 AM

novabunny

Posts: 57
Joined: 1/11/2008
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I must admit i have similar failings... when nervous or worried i have a silly smirk i do which isn't me being disrespectful or doubting my Master. He has learnt to read that when i smirk it shows i'm where He wants my head to be... also if i stop smirking and start laughing nervously then He talks me through things to calm me down. Master works on triggers alot and can now read my triggers very well... i did have the discussion with Him about not smirking or trying to stop myself doing it. He told me not to dare as its a natural thing i do and He now takes His Q's from my reactions, but trying to alter my reactions i may not deal with things as well. So He understands i don't do it out of disrespect just my coping mechanism which now actually makes Him smile as He knows He's got me when i laugh!

x novaslave x

(in reply to CdnExplorer)

Post #: 15

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