Please don't look away

Please don't look away (Full Version)

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subtee -> Please don't look away (3/24/2008 4:43:06 PM)
From the people whose sons and daughters are no more, look up your state...the faces of those lost. Look up the cost to your community. Read and think, please: http://www.fofchange.org/

subtee -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 6:31:36 PM)
Or do. Sad.

cjan -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 6:34:55 PM)
It takes a little more effort today to look , count , feel and understand. During VietNam, the flag draped coffins being offloaded at airbases were on the evening news and in the papers. The Bush administration won't allow the dead or maimed Iraq vets to be filmed or photographed. Just like they got us into this war, and have kept us there to the tune of 4000 dead, many thousands more maimed and hundres of billions (soon to be trillions)of tax dollars squandered, their philosophy is to treat us like mushrooms...keep us in the dark and feed us bullshit. So far, it's worked just great for them and their buddies in the military/industrial complex and for their oil buddies too ( including the Saudis, tyvm. Thanks for the topic, OP.

subtee -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 6:36:05 PM)
Thank you for answering. I guess posts about TV or why my legs itch are too compelling sometimes.

TheHeretic -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 6:36:16 PM)
What is sad is the exploitation of sacrifice to push a political agenda.

SirRober -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 6:39:20 PM)
I will not advacate for or against this war..... but will say that due to the current poltical unstableness in that region if the U.S. leaves without having a strong Iraqi goverment. Then all of the lives from the past 15 years in that area will be lost in vain. and on a side note the current operation is OIF but .... Operation Desert Storm and Desert Watch were in effect long before OIF and were forgotten by the public until 9/11 happened......

subtee -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 6:44:33 PM)
And what if achieving a strong Iraqi government is not achievable? Do you condemn the dead in the same way? Haven't we made it worse? [Edited to add: one of the fathers that directs this Web site believes his son's life was lost in vain]

cjan -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 6:48:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirRober I will not advacate for or against this war..... but will say that due to the current poltical unstableness in that region if the U.S. leaves without having a strong Iraqi goverment. Then all of the lives from the past 15 years in that area will be lost in vain. and on a side note the current operation is OIF but .... Operation Desert Storm and Desert Watch were in effect long before OIF and were forgotten by the public until 9/11 happened...... SirRobert, with all due respect, wouldn't you say that all the lives lost in VietNam were lost in vain? Imo, any life lost not in self defense, in any conflict, is lost in vain.

AquaticSub -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 6:50:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cjan Imo, any life lost not in self defense, in any conflict, is lost in vain. That's a blanket statement that I would disagree with. Some things are worth fighting and dying for.

SirRober -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 6:54:25 PM)
that is what england said about the U.S. in the early years... I don't condemn the dead. and I don't have a opinion on if the U.S. made it worse or better. What I do know is that the military makes up about 1% of the nation so.... What about drunk driving deaths which in 2006, an estimated 17,602 people died in alcohol-related traffic crashes—an average of one every 30 minutes. These deaths constitute 41 percent of the 42,642 total traffic fatalities. Of these, an estimated 13,470 involved a driver with an illegal BAC (.08 or greater). Learn More

cjan -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 6:56:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: cjan Imo, any life lost not in self defense, in any conflict, is lost in vain. That's a blanket statement that I would disagree with. Some things are worth fighting and dying for. Yes, it is a "blanket" statement. And you, as anyone, are entitled to your opinion. What bothers me, though, are those folks who have and act on their opinions that send others to fight , bleed and die for them.If you think that fighting and dying for something is worth it, then, by all means, be my guest.

angelbluewingsz -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 6:57:50 PM)
I myself was sent to Desert Storm my first tour I was so green I was still shy to pee in front of other people! My specialty kept me on compound and I didn't see much action but on my way to an off base jaunt with a handfull of others who were off that day we encountered a man sitting in the middle of the deserted road- holding a plastic grocery bag. We followed protocol and ordered him to surrender the bag. long story short after many tense moments he finally laid face down and a couple of the guys hauled him off to the side of the road to "talk" to him. Myself and another fellow inspected the bag that the man was so hell bent on keeping hold of. It was his daughters body, or at least some of it. until that moment I didn't even know why we were there. I had been following orders as were many of my comrades in arms. My brother soldiers and I wept for this man, his loss and so many others. For all who have lost we can only remember the good and not fight about who is wrong or who wins. We have all already lost.

cjan -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 6:58:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirRober that is what england said about the U.S. in the early years... I don't condemn the dead. and I don't have a opinion on if the U.S. made it worse or better. What I do know is that the military makes up about 1% of the nation so.... What about drunk driving deaths which in 2006, an estimated 17,602 people died in alcohol-related traffic crashes—an average of one every 30 minutes. These deaths constitute 41 percent of the 42,642 total traffic fatalities. Of these, an estimated 13,470 involved a driver with an illegal BAC (.08 or greater). Learn More huh? [image]http://www.collarchat.com/upfiles/smiley/ofcourse.gif[/image]

subtee -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 7:01:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelbluewingsz I myself was sent to Desert Storm my first tour I was so green I was still shy to pee in front of other people! My specialty kept me on compound and I didn't see much action but on my way to an off base jaunt with a handfull of others who were off that day we encountered a man sitting in the middle of the deserted road- holding a plastic grocery bag. We followed protocol and ordered him to surrender the bag. long story short after many tense moments he finally laid face down and a couple of the guys hauled him off to the side of the road to "talk" to him. Myself and another fellow inspected the bag that the man was so hell bent on keeping hold of. It was his daughters body, or at least some of it. until that moment I didn't even know why we were there. I had been following orders as were many of my comrades in arms. My brother soldiers and I wept for this man, his loss and so many others. For all who have lost we can only remember the good and not fight about who is wrong or who wins. We have all already lost. Thank you for your service, and I agree we've already all lost. Please don't give up on the discussion...

celticlord2112 -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 7:03:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee And what if achieving a strong Iraqi government is not achievable? Do you condemn the dead in the same way? Haven't we made it worse? The more challenging question is what should the US do if a strong democratic government is not possible in Iraq. Strong government is what the Iraqis had in Saddam Hussein. Could the US abandon pretext of democratic government in favor of a regime strong enough to hold the country together?

subtee -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 7:03:25 PM)
quote: What about drunk driving deaths which in 2006, an estimated 17,602 people died in alcohol-related traffic crashes—an average of one every 30 minutes. These deaths constitute 41 percent of the 42,642 total traffic fatalities. Of these, an estimated 13,470 involved a driver with an illegal BAC (.08 or greater). Learn More Please post a new OP. What you suggest is not unimportant, but also not germaine to this post.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 7:04:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: cjan Imo, any life lost not in self defense, in any conflict, is lost in vain. That's a blanket statement that I would disagree with. Some things are worth fighting and dying for. Turn the question around for a moment. What things are worth sending someone else to fight and die for?

subtee -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 7:05:06 PM)
No, CL, they won't. (Depending upon who is in office next.) The well is dug. Another regime will not win favor, although there are many who will indeed (and without conscience) claim it as a victory.

AquaticSub -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 7:08:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cjan Yes, it is a "blanket" statement. And you, as anyone, are entitled to your opinion. What bothers me, though, are those folks who have and act on their opinions that send others to fight , bleed and die for them.If you think that fighting and dying for something is worth it, then, by all means, be my guest. Some things are worth sending others to die for. I personally don't know enough about the Vietnam war and the current one to say either way, but I, personally, think the American Revolution was worth the French dying for and I think it was worth sending Americans, English, Australians and so on to fight during WWII. It's a shame we didn't care more - a lot of lives could have been saved. It sucks that the people making the decisions sometimes make shitty ones that cause others pain but sometimes those decisions have to be made. And sometimes those in power are affected, choosing not to shield their sons from war or have war records themselves. You don't want those making the decisions fighting because, in theory, these are the people whose military expertise can help end things quickly with as little loss as possible.

subtee -> RE: Please don't look away (3/24/2008 7:16:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Some things are worth sending others to die for. I personally don't know enough about the Vietnam war and the current one to say either way, but I, personally, think the American Revolution was worth the French dying for and I think it was worth sending Americans, English, Australians and so on to fight during WWII. It's a shame we didn't care more - a lot of lives could have been saved. It sucks that the people making the decisions sometimes make shitty ones that cause others pain but sometimes those decisions have to be made. And sometimes those in power are affected, choosing not to shield their sons from war or have war records themselves. You don't want those making the decisions fighting because, in theory, these are the people whose military expertise can help end things quickly with as little loss as possible. [Emphasis added] Both of these are stunning and alarming statements to me. Would you please elaborate?

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