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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 7:44:28 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		But all is for the best in the best of all capitalistic worlds  .

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 7:54:00 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Using FR........

Didn't Rome fall because their infrastructure crumbled? They were so busy running about trying to conquer the world they forgot to take care of their own people.

Remind you of anything?


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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 7:54:41 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		It's "collapsing" for the whiners, for those waiting for their entitlements, for those who find someone new to blame every day for their own condition. Those that want their failures insured by a governmental nanny would of course see "collapse" when in reality their condition is the result of their own laziness, lack of foresight, or inability to project out the consequences of their decisions and actions.

For the self motivated, for the entrepreneurs, for the hard workers, for those interested in self determination; the US is an expanse of opportunity.

Admittedly you don't see much of this in the media; success isn't a 'sexy' story. But the immigrant population realizes that there is as much opportunity here as ever, more by far, than any other country. Whether considering the criminal immigrants or those who waited in the long lines to be here legally; they see opportunity and would trade places in a second with the any of the complaining citizenry.

Go ahead, complain away, blame everyone else. One suggestion - stay away from any mirrors.

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 7:58:43 AM   
MissSCD


Posts: 1185
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline 		One word is causing this decline-WAR!
The war is draining our resources and economy.   Gas will soon be $4.00 per gallon.  Whomever controls the price of oil is the culprit.
Just take a look at who has been on the board of directors of the oil companies, and there is your answer.
Welfare is not it.  
War takes big bucks-guns and butter.
 
Regards, MissSCD

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 8:08:51 AM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline 		It doesn't matter what the amount or percentage of the budget it is, certain things were NOT meant to be funded at the Federal level, pure and simple.   I don't care if it is "only": $42,000,000 (that's $1000 from 42,000 families, btw) or $.01.  It is still fundamentally wrong.

Ever since the government started stretching the Commerce Clause in the Constitution ( see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commerce_Clause) to cover things unintended, the road has been steadily paved for failure.

The Federal Government was set up to do very specific tasks.  The rest was left to State and Local Governments.  Once the Feds figured out that all they had to do was claim some CC involvement, it started its growth, both in programs and power.   Don't like this law about speed limits?  Then no Federal Road Funding for you!   Don't want to do medical care our way?  Forget getting any Federal monies to help!

While they *may* have had the best intentions originally, it is now a perversion of what was established and intended.  

Come the Revolution, there will be some changes!!


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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 8:11:13 AM   
RealityLicks


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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

It's "collapsing" for the whiners, for those waiting for their entitlements, for those who find someone new to blame every day for their own condition. Those that want their failures insured by a governmental nanny would of course see "collapse" when in reality their condition is the result of their own laziness, lack of foresight, or inability to project out the consequences of their decisions and actions.

For the self motivated, for the entrepreneurs, for the hard workers, for those interested in self determination; the US is an expanse of opportunity.


I'm sure Bear Stearns was filled with hard workers.  So what went wrong?

quote:


Admittedly you don't see much of this in the media; success isn't a 'sexy' story.


The media is vital in brainwashing, not just Americans but Westerners in allied states, to buy into the creed of materialism.  Success, money is great (such as I've had which is not much lol) but ultimately isn't enough.  The media incessantly shows images of success as being sexy.  It ususally only shows it's opposite - failure - as a scare story to make you chase success all the harder.

quote:


But the immigrant population realizes that there is as much opportunity here as ever, more by far, than any other country.


A higher standard of living is always to be found at the heart of Empire.  That is because other countries are drained to pay for it.  Why not follow the money?

quote:


Whether considering the criminal immigrants or those who waited in the long lines to be here legally; they see opportunity and would trade places in a second with the any of the complaining citizenry.

Go ahead, complain away, blame everyone else. One suggestion - stay away from any mirrors.


It would seem to be you who is blaming others.  At least critics of the system can envisage changes and improvements.  Slavishly pursuing an unsustainable path is convincing to a dwindling number , it would seem.

By the way, the little analysis from Noam Chomsky I linked states clearly that the policies I described, terminology et al come from US Government papers of the post-War period which have now been de-classified.  Your philosophy is available at every news outlet, maybe it wouldn't hurt to check some others out now and again?

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 8:13:14 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

It's "collapsing" for the whiners, for those waiting for their entitlements, for those who find someone new to blame every day for their own condition. Those that want their failures insured by a governmental nanny would of course see "collapse" when in reality their condition is the result of their own laziness, lack of foresight, or inability to project out the consequences of their decisions and actions.

For the self motivated, for the entrepreneurs, for the hard workers, for those interested in self determination; the US is an expanse of opportunity.


I'm sure Bear Stearns was filled with hard workers.  So what went wrong?



Capitalism?

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 8:50:05 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

I'm sure Bear Stearns was filled with hard workers.  So what went wrong?
Nothing. A business failed. The "hard workers" now have an opportunity to control their own future; either on their own, or with another financial service company. It does represent capitalism. Is capitalism and the opportunity it provides now not PC?
quote:

It would seem to be you who is blaming others.  At least critics of the system can envisage changes and improvements.  Slavishly pursuing an unsustainable path is convincing to a dwindling number , it would seem.
A defeatist perspective; you want to "blame" what I consider my success "unsustainable" that is your propagative. I'd ask you to point to my blaming others for the OP topic of "US Collapse"? I point to individual failure and finger pointing blame. I've never blamed anyone else but me for my many failures and few successes. I see that as a major difference in our approach to conditions in the US.

Critics? You mean people who make their money and their success and live much higher than any of their followers? People of foresight like that?

People who criticize, yet offer no solution? People like the current leader of the DNC delegate count who runs a campaign on "change" yet can't point to one single thing in their platform or in their past that represented any. You are a consumer of buzz-words fed to you by the media. A feast that will leave you starving and wondering what happened.

quote:

By the way, the little analysis from Noam Chomsky I linked states clearly that the policies I described, terminology et al come from US Government papers of the post-War period which have now been de-classified.  Your philosophy is available at every news outlet, maybe it wouldn't hurt to check some others out now and again?
What is the alternative, socialism? Speaking of post WWII lessons - where has that worked? I'd suggest in reality its never been tried because socialism is counter human natural behavior. Every attempt as socialism has, upon closer inspection, generated a society who's structure was not only capitalist but had a sharper top portion of the hierarchy pointed pyramid.

I guarantee that I read much more in opposition to me than in agreement. It is the only way to plan and consider consequence and find other opportunity. Right now there are tremendous opportunities for personal growth, however you define it. However, pointing to a Chomsky article written in 1993 supports your position? It was written in a different world. It speaks more to the time, or better yet is a typical use of 20/20 hindsight vision regarding post WWII. It provides no insight and no secrets are exposed. However I've long supported the elimination of ALL welfare, especially the Corporate variety that he points to. It is why the first candidate I eliminated for consideration as President was Senator McCain.

A defeatist plans his own defeat, focused on the past while ignoring the pragmatic present and not planing for the most likely future. If that's your hobby - enjoy!

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/25/2008 9:32:15 AM >

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 9:12:23 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		the problem is that we are on a fiat money system.  It is a debt based system structured such that it is impossible to "ever" pay back.

Nixon declared bankruptcy, (without actually saying it), way back in the 70's, thats not made up, he took us off the specie standard.

Have you ever investigated other countries deficits?  The whole world with exception to china is broke.  How can virtually every country be broke at the same time?

The price of milk is no more than it was when I was a kid, it doesnt cost more to milk that cow in fact it costs less as a result of better management, but we are paying more because of the value of our dollar.

Its sinking, soon to be less than 3cents.

I think it is short sited to think that a crash cant happen because if it can happen on a national basis in 29 that it it can certainly happen on a world wide basis.

It really has nothing to do with whiners as I am also putting myself in a position to prepare for another crash of 29 because its on its way and they will take the whole world down with them.

This has been talked about for years and they keep coming up with little temporary bandaids that work for a while then fall through.

Each time what do we see?  Some kind of bank scam at the heart of it all.   They have even gotten to the point where they are taking each other out now so stakes are getting higher.

If we do go into a crash or deep depression your paper will be worthless and it will come down to food and basic necesities.  So as much as I would like ot be fully invested to maximize my profits I cant be.

Its a ticking time bomb.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/25/2008 9:20:17 AM >

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 9:41:02 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Mercnbeth - reading your post it isn't easy to decipher what exactly you are driving at except for in a very general sense.  Let's keep it simple.  As for giving an example of Socialism "working", how about Vietnam, where a socialist country repelled the forces of the mighty US? 

I know it's customary for people to talk of the fall of the Soviet Union as proof that socialism doesn't work but in fact, theirs' wasn't truly a socialist system.  The USSR never allowed the workers to choose how their labour would be directed and the output spent.

I like to think of myself as being pragmatic not dogmatic - I believe first and foremost in social justice but really have no alternative but to operate in a capitalist setting.  Like most, I blend one with another but am generally a libertarian and a leftist.  I eat well but I like to sleep well, too.  Label away; you don't know me.

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 9:50:28 AM   
cyberdude611


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Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		Vietnam didnt defeat America, America turned Vietnam over in a deal with the Chinese. The US held back and never disabled the North because then the Chinese would get involved with the war. In 1975, the US and China made a deal and part of that deal was for the US to pull out of South Vietnam. In exchange, the Chinese promised to stop promoting communist revolutions in SE asia and to restrain the communists in Vietnam from expanding past their borders.

The main issue with socialism is it wont work in the United States is it promotes the idea that the group is more important than the individual. That philosophy doesnt work in America. America is all about individualism. Personal responsibility. And that is what has attracted so many immigrants from nations who are under a dictatorship or under socialism.

Also remember what Winston Churchill said, the only thing socialism brings "is equal misery for all."

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 9:52:13 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I'm sure Bear Stearns was filled with hard workers.  So what went wrong?
Nothing. A business failed. The "hard workers" now have an opportunity to control their own future; either on their own, or with another financial service company. It does represent capitalism. Is capitalism and the opportunity it provides now not PC?


1. The problem with capitalism is that it treats the environment, our shared habitat, as a free resource to plunder, exploit and despoil. It takes no account of the shared costs forced upon a population with the damages caused by capital using the environment in such a way. As long as companies make a profit, it matters little who its victims are. Capital acts in a psychopathic way which has caused many psychologists to extensively explore the relationship between companies and the people that manage them over the last decade and many CEOs show all the signs of being psychopathic. The fall of ENRON has been widely discussed as down to the psychopathic tendencies of the central characters.

2. Capitalism is based on greed, greed greases the wheels, not need. Capital is used to generate wealth through interest(OK simplistic). One of the problems with the current crisis is that greed has once again made capital forget that prices and profits don't forever increase, the markets have now realised that the bank's assets are not sound and are inflated so everyone is reluctant to lend money to service debt payments. If the government doesn't pump in cash, the whole house of cards comes down.

3. The assumption that the alternative to capitalism is socialism )which in America seems to have an extreme connotation that it doesn't have in Europe) is not true. Much of Europe has a hybrid socialist/capitalist system so the idea that there is one system or another and nothing in between is incorrect. Certainly the world needs to conserve more and particularly the developed world needs to stop wasting valuable resources on garbage that is no more than instant gratification to be immediately discarded. (Sorry if this precludes someone getting rich on a plastic gimmick that spreads like a virus.) There needs to be more local sourcing of food and materials and many products that are made to last rather than having an inbuilt obsolence (products such as furniture and clothes) with a corresponding costs. There have been many proposed modifications to the current economic system that have been put forward to enable conservation, reduce waste while still encouraging innovation. The problem is, the politicians we keep voting for are short term red blooded capitalists that are in the business of filling their own pockets and that of their mmates while claiming to believe in public service.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/25/2008 9:54:36 AM >

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 10:02:32 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Mercnbeth - reading your post it isn't easy to decipher what exactly you are driving at except for in a very general sense.  Let's keep it simple.  As for giving an example of Socialism "working", how about Vietnam, where a socialist country repelled the forces of the mighty US? 

What's so hard? Is self determination too difficult a concept, general or specific? You see "collapse", I see opportunity. I'd argue that any collapse is a function of people who want and need a government nanny service. Simple enough?

Vietnam - a GREAT example. I'll join you in congratulating them on the repelling of the "mighty US". I won't however join you in reveling to the subsequent interment and murder of thousands that occurred once the oppressing US left. I just can't get behind and hold up as a standard a regime that used mass murder to insure their power base, but that's just me.

However, the point was how Vietnam functions today as your example of a working socialist State. A people working 16 hours a day at $1/day to manufacture goods shipped to and purchased by the US with the profits held by modern day feudal kings and "high ranking officials". I agree - a perfect example. You want to follow that model here?

quote:

am generally a libertarian
I'd love to know how you reconcile a "Libertarian" philosophy of no government bureaucracy with your attraction to Socialism which holds government bureaucracy as the 'ideal'? No wonder you have trouble sleeping.
quote:

I eat well but I like to sleep well.
Sorry to hear about your insomnia. I however sleep content in the knowledge that I obtained what I have on my own initiative and similar opportunities exist for others to do the same. 

I have no sympathy for those waiting for an government entitlement, or who have lottery tickets as a cornerstone of their retirement plan.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/25/2008 10:18:30 AM >

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 10:07:10 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Interesting, I thought Kissinger signed a treaty with the communists and that America evacuated under the subsequent violation of that treaty by the North.  Either way, American foreign policy in the region was utterly defeated.


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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 10:10:12 AM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		Come on meatcleaver...

You are not actually trying to say socialists take better care of the environment do you?

Lets take a look at socialist and communist countries and see what their envrionment is like. 16 of the 20 worst polluted cities in the world are in China. The rest are in the former Soviet Union. There is one river in China where there is so much pollution that the river is red. A city in Siberia is so polluted the snowfall is black.

So dont try to tell me that only capitalist countries are destroying the planet and that communism and socialism are green philosophies.

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 10:14:49 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Come on meatcleaver...

You are not actually trying to say socialists take better care of the environment do you?



No I'm not saying that. I'm saying the alternative to capitalism is not necessarily socialism but an alternative. I was pointing out the choice is not a simple choice between one or the other but could be an hybrid of several alternatives.

Dictatorships have polluted widely but its been capitalism that have been using up natural resources like they were going out of fashion and when developed capitalist countries were developing, they too polluted to the same extent as Russia and China's industrialization.

The problem now with China and India hungry for resources is that the consumption of limited resources will get faster and faster, exaggerating problems already in the system.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/25/2008 10:19:06 AM >

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 10:18:08 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The problem with capitalism is that it treats the environment, our shared habitat, as a free resource to plunder, exploit and despoil.


Considering all the attention to China's pollution how can you make the statement that Capitalism is any different than Socialism in this regard? Better yet, how do the people of China effect change and mandate their government act as has been the experience in the industrialized West?

Let me guess - you'll point to the multi-national industries as the "real" power, paying off the top hierarchy under both economic models.

BTW - I'd agree with point 2. However, I don't support the governmental intervention to prevent failure.

Point #3 needs to consider the limitations of space and resources. Europe has exploited most of theirs and is forced to constrict growth both real and philosophical. However, there are many people who look and are investing in the former Eastern Block for that very reason. The Socialist systems inefficiency left a lot of untapped resources especially in the human spirit.

The "plastic gimmick" reference is also a good point. Look to the "global warming" industry as a world wide example of such. Wow - Al Gore deserves his Nobel Prize; however, I think it should have been given in economics. He created an entire industry and got governments throughout the world to fund and legislate guaranteed success. He's an icon for Capitalism in its finest form; creating a gimmick and then convincing all that they'll be dead if they don't buy it!

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 10:20:53 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The problem with capitalism is that it treats the environment, our shared habitat, as a free resource to plunder, exploit and despoil.


Considering all the attention to China's pollution how can you make the statement that Capitalism is any different than Socialism in this regard? Better yet, how do the people of China effect change and mandate their government act as has been the experience in the industrialized West?



China is developing a capitalist economy and as I pointed out to cyberdude, western capitalist countries poluted just as much as Russia and China during their industrialisation.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/25/2008 10:26:40 AM >

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 10:25:03 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The "plastic gimmick" reference is also a good point. Look to the "global warming" industry as a world wide example of such. Wow - Al Gore deserves his Nobel Prize; however, I think it should have been given in economics. He created an entire industry and got governments throughout the world to fund and legislate guaranteed success. He's an icon for Capitalism in its finest form; creating a gimmick and then convincing all that they'll be dead if they don't buy it!



When so many scientists voice concern about the climate and so much evidence of the climate changing (man made or not), and so many countries showing conceren for their environment and economies due to climate change, only the ignorant can suggest its a gimmick.

Gore and the Nobel prize are pretty irrelevent to the debate.

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RE: "Why the US is collapsing" - 3/25/2008 10:36:15 AM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		Communism will never work. It will never progress past the dictatorship stage. The whole idea behind the Soviet Union, and practically every communist revolition, is that dictatorship is necessary to mobilize the country and the economy and then to forfeit the dictatorship to the people. THAT'S THE PROBLEM! Right there. Dictatorships NEVER willingly step down. Once they gain power they only tend to find excuses to keep power.

Gorbachev recognized this in the 1980s. He knew the Soviet Union cannot ever succeed. So he tried to move the country towards democratic reform. He pushed it a little too far than he wanted to and ended up collapsing the system. But he knew the status quo was not going to work.

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