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Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 11:20:17 AM   
softness


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The Taming of The Shrew has always been one of my favourite plays by Shakespeare; combination of D/s and slapstick, sexist early modern literature at its best. I have always adored and self identified as Katharina..and secretly desired Petruchio. My personal interpretation of the play has changed as many times as I have read it.

So imagine my delight when I get it read back to me by Sir . We refer back often to her final speech in V.2 (links included here)  http://www.online-literature.com/shakespeare/shrew/14/ as it is the best and most complete model of what we believe a woman's place to be. It is something that has spoken to both of us .. before we met eachother, before we even met the lifestyle.

This thread is not to debate the role of women and the balance of power between the sexes...but something of far greater personal importance to me. I look at the characeter of Katharina ..and see myself... I am more than a little bit of a Shrew.. .. Sir  recently described me as "a bit of bulldog, remind me to keep you leashed" .. He  says I have rapier like wit ... I know that I intimidate people, and actively exploit their weaknesses. I  sometimes look at people and work out how I could crush them like a bug, my favourite way to unwind after work.. is to eviscerate someone in a chatroom or forum thread .. kinky or vanilla... am not too bothered. In fact, looking at it ... I could probably take Katharina in a fight.

So I have frequently struggled to watch her "downfall" into submission ... I have mourned for the loss of her spirit and vim. I have opted for the personal interpretation that she is being ironic in her submission, or biding her time (topping from the bottom if you will). As a scholar ..a serious one .. this is a crappy interpretation .. and beneath me. But I look at the woman she becomes, and it took me along time to see that she was actually happier that way than she was before, it still made me mourn her loss, but i could evetually see her gain by being submissive to her husband. The other day W/we were having and discussion about my pride and needing to be right and He read me this section http://www.online-literature.com/shakespeare/shrew/12/  .. and for this I fished out my rather battered copy of the play.I took it to bed that night to try to learn her final speech by heart...and in the notes I found this excellent piece of critical analysis.

"The truth is that Kate's greatest victory is, with the help of Petruchio, over herself. She has come to accept that she has enough worth and merit and can be content without having the last word and scaring everybody. She is all that she once was, merely choosing not to direct it at the man who loves her,but for the man who loves her."  (R B Heilman,1966)

and then also

"Kate has the uncommon good fortune to find Petruchio, who is man enough to know what he wants, and exactly how to get it. He wants Katharina, but on his terms, as opposed to hers." (Germaine Greer, 1970) 

Kate is not the broken version of Katharina ...not the diminished, doormatted version of Katherina. She is every bit of the woman that Katharina was (intelligent, witty, terrifying, powerful) , but Kate has something new, she is also the woman that Katharine could be but was not. Petruchio adores her spirit and passion and bite, he just doesn't want it directed at him.(look at the very beginning ofV.2 for evidence of this)  He doesn't kill it, he just directs it elsewhere. He allows Kate to be everything she once was AND to be a happy and contented woman. This gave me great personal comfort, especially when I read it to Sir and He just laughed and said "Finally!..you get it"

So... fellow Shrews ... how does this sit with you? Do you think Kate is a better woman than Katharina?...or has she diminshed in your eyes?
Unshrew like submissives and slaves... how do you feel about Kates in the lifestyle? Dowe have our place?
Aspiring Petruchios.... is this how you want your Kates?... or do you want the unthinking submissive she can also be seen to be?
Dominants... would you want to take this woman and turn her ... or take Bianca and beat some manners into her?

and the secret to breaking a woman?... Petruchio manages it keeping her hungry and sleep deprived ...and horny  (sounding VERY familiar to me right now!)



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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 11:29:32 AM   
Dnomyar


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Sometimes I don't read all of the post and this is one of those times.

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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 11:32:05 AM   
Poetryinpain


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I, too, have always loved that speech, although the version I memorized was the one put to music in Kiss Me, Kate. For many years I rejected it, thinking it was a poor representation of what a woman should and could be. But of late, as I have begun exploring my submissive side, it makes more and more sense.

I don't think Petruchio wanted a doormat or arm candy. He wanted a partner - a wife who could match his wit, keep him company intellectually as well as sexually. What he didn't want was a battle every hour on the hour. Kate wanted her independence, and she found it in serving the man she grew to love.

Yes, I think I am a Kate.


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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 11:39:18 AM   
Aylee


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1.  He denies her her rightful sexuality.
2.  She becomes defined in relation to someone else, not in relation to herself.  She becomes "other-defined"
3.  She becomes the object of his life and not the subject of her own life.

What he does is take a female, BY FORCE, who is strong, independent, self-centered, powerful, assertive, and above all, the subject of  her own life, and terrorize her into being weak, dependant, other-centered, powerless, timid, and an object.

No I do not think that this is a beautiful thing. 

He humiliates her at their wedding, starves her, insults her, objectifies her, sleep deprives her. . .  WITHOUT HER CONSENT. 

Of course she loses her identity and begins to identify with him.  There is actually a name for this syndrome, but I cannot recall it off the top of my head. 

It is terrorizing domestic abuse. 

No, I do not think that it is a good basis for a relationship.


However, I do like the play.  It has some great lines. 

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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 11:49:34 AM   
lusciouslips19


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Stolkholm Syndrome. Identifying with your Captor

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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 11:52:37 AM   
Dnomyar


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Doslaves identify with their Masters in the same way?

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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 11:59:13 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

Stolkholm Syndrome. Identifying with your Captor


Thank you.  My brain is fried today.

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I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 12:05:08 PM   
Gwynvyd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Sometimes I don't read all of the post and this is one of those times.


I usualy do not either.. but in this.. you lost a chance at a very good posting. Sorry for your loss.

Gwyn

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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 12:11:58 PM   
sirguym


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The syndrome you're referring to is usually called, "Stockholm Syndrome" after the phenomenon of hostages siding with their captors was noted in a siege there.

Shakespeare wrote some great parts for women, and obviously knew that there was far more to them than the cramped and simplistic stereotype that literal-minded Christians try to cram them into, but he was not trying to write a treatise on women's liberation, he was struggling to entertain the audience so they'd pay their money to come again.

So if I put myself in his shoes, I'd play it the way the poster portrays below to appeal to the lowest common denominator amongst the unsophisticated men; who after all were most of his audience. (It would of course been the commonly accepted wisdom of the day that what Petruchio did was the 'right' thing to do, even more than it is now, and that he should not have been so damn patient or gentle about it!)  But also and at the same time to hint at the other interpretation to the women in his audience, and to those men who were a little more appreciative and sophisticated in their attitude to women, and gently try to subvert the stereotypes imposed by the Christian bigotry of the day. That is the wonderful thing about Shakespeare, it can be taken at so many different levels. There may well have been actors in his company seeing it one way, others seeing it the other way, both at the same performance, and both playing it the way he wanted them to as well!

I think that seeing it as either black or white is falling into exactly the same trap that so many of our critics fall into, thinkiing that there is an 'us' and a 'them'. For every bit of pure black or pure white there is an infinite spectrum of colours, shades, tints so on.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

1.  He denies her her rightful sexuality.
2.  She becomes defined in relation to someone else, not in relation to herself.  She becomes "other-defined"
3.  She becomes the object of his life and not the subject of her own life.

What he does is take a female, BY FORCE, who is strong, independent, self-centered, powerful, assertive, and above all, the subject of  her own life, and terrorize her into being weak, dependant, other-centered, powerless, timid, and an object.

No I do not think that this is a beautiful thing. 

He humiliates her at their wedding, starves her, insults her, objectifies her, sleep deprives her. . .  WITHOUT HER CONSENT. 

Of course she loses her identity and begins to identify with him.  There is actually a name for this syndrome, but I cannot recall it off the top of my head. 

It is terrorizing domestic abuse. 

No, I do not think that it is a good basis for a relationship.


However, I do like the play.  It has some great lines. 

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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 12:16:46 PM   
CreativeDominant


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I will read a play like this and set aside a bit of disbelief so that I can enjoy it.  In real life, as Aylee noted, this is a woman who was forced to become something/someone else in a manner lacking her consent.  She ended up happier.  Many in real life would not, unless they were truly brainwashed...the Stockholm Syndrome.

One thing I take issue with is the idea that this woman could be intelligent and refined and do so by taking out her bite on others rather than her husband/master.  I cannot help but wonder...what poor soul is going to get the venom and anger that rightly belongs to her husband today?  I know there are Kates in the lifestyle;  I am sure we've all met those submissives who were very kind and loving and loyal and happy to/with their dominant but who could bite viciously at others with only the slightest...if any...provocation.  ~shrugs~...not my cup of tea.  I like spirit and I like intelligence and I like courtesy and civility.  So many people seem to think that being courteous or being civil rules out being spirited...I will grant you that it takes greater effort to be courteous and yet, express your displeasure or your opinion of something being wrong...but it can be done.  I don't like the idea that the way my submissive could be happy and well-behaved and loving and horny with me would be by taking out anger/displeasure/disagreement with me on someone else.  IMO, it sort of takes the honesty and communication out of it.

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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 12:19:20 PM   
softness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

What he does is take a female, BY FORCE, who is strong, independent, self-centered, powerful, assertive, and above all, the subject of  her own life, and terrorize her into being weak, dependant, other-centered, powerless, timid, and an object.



where in the final climax of the play is Katharina weak, timid, powerless, or dependant?

she bests both woman and men intellectually...she is given one of the longest speeches a woman ever is in the whole Shakespearean cannon, she stands there glorious over the other women present and her husband is clearly delighted with her and tells her so

arguably the whole story is the dream of the drunken character we meet in the opening prologue ... am not saying this is a good model for a relationship.. its a terrible model for one ... but the dynamic between them at the end is not IMHO an abusive one ... its actually a very empowering one for Kate



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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 12:19:49 PM   
Gwynvyd


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I think I am a kinder and gentler Petruchio. My girl has lovingly been refered to as a pitbull in lipstick. She could give Kate a run for her money. LOL She is settling down and it has thus far taken 6 years to get her to the point where we are now where I can take her out into public and not be instantly wanting to shove her into the car and go home. Every one still finds her intimidating.. and she will occasionaly eviscerate someone out of hand.. but it is usualy off to the side and among friends now.. instead of to thier face. ( she can be taught) I have become her Jimmeny Cricket. That little voice that normal folks have that warns them " This may not be a good Idea", or " You might hurt someones feelings" never kicks in with her.

I like that she has a strong will and is a "Kate" I love her passionate nature. I am slowly but surely showing her it does not have to be self defaeting and distructive.. but can be turned and used to do good and positive things.

In hers.. and most cases when all of that wit, passion and vim is turned to negitive means it is out of lack of some thing from within.. something from thier past. I am trying my best to heal that she she realizes she is safe.. and does not have to launch the first attack. No one is going to harm her. It is a barrier of words and actions she puts up so others will not come close enough to harm her. ( I have seen this many times over in others.) ~I spent a couple of years as an Aloof Ice Queen because of my own issues I had to work out on my own.. so I know the drill.

Most who of those who would be Petruchios may not realize that is where the basis lays.. and just see a bitch who "needs to be put in her place" I feel sorry for them.. and esp the poor Kates they come across.

Gwyn

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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 12:36:26 PM   
missfrillypants


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

1.  He denies her her rightful sexuality.
2.  She becomes defined in relation to someone else, not in relation to herself.  She becomes "other-defined"
3.  She becomes the object of his life and not the subject of her own life.

What he does is take a female, BY FORCE, who is strong, independent, self-centered, powerful, assertive, and above all, the subject of  her own life, and terrorize her into being weak, dependant, other-centered, powerless, timid, and an object.

No I do not think that this is a beautiful thing. 

He humiliates her at their wedding, starves her, insults her, objectifies her, sleep deprives her. . .  WITHOUT HER CONSENT. 

Of course she loses her identity and begins to identify with him.  There is actually a name for this syndrome, but I cannot recall it off the top of my head. 

It is terrorizing domestic abuse. 

No, I do not think that it is a good basis for a relationship.


However, I do like the play.  It has some great lines. 


stockholm, aylee. the name of the syndrome is stockholm. this play always kind of annoyed me because they kept making movies and romance novels and things based on the story that encouraged boys i thought were complete morons to think that i was somehow flirting with them in highschool. just for the record... sometimes she just hates you. it does happen. luckily as they get older men realize life is not like a movie.

i never thought of it as a D/s story though. huh. time to reread, i guess.

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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 12:55:18 PM   
Sundowner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

I am more than a little bit of a Shrew
Well yes - I think we'd all agree with that <weg>

As a scholar ..a serious one ..
Ah - I'm not, so my view is a touch dodgy

"The truth is that Kate's greatest victory is, with the help of Petruchio, over herself. She has come to accept that she has enough worth and merit and can be content without having the last word and scaring everybody. ......" 

Kate is not the broken version of Katharina ...not the diminished, doormatted version of Katherina. She is every bit of the woman that Katharina was (intelligent, witty, terrifying, powerful) , but Kate has something new, she is also the woman that Katharine could be but was not. Petruchio adores her spirit and passion and bite, he just doesn't want it directed at him.....He allows Kate to be everything she once was AND to be a happy and contented woman.
I'd go for that


I've always found this a delightful - and rather moving - play. The girl is intelligent, witty and "powerful" (and so is he) and I just love intelligent and witty ppl. So I fall in love with the characters and I just get all soppy when girl and boy hitch up at the end - two ppl, both very much brighter than their peers, happy together; I would die for that. So I can happily cry at this as easily as I can cry at Bambi (unlike our OP I trow).

So my view is a touch simplistic, but I get off on intelligent girls

"and the secret to breaking a woman?... Petruchio manages it keeping her hungry and sleep deprived ...and horny"

I don't think he "breaks" her - just ..... "changes" her?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Poetryinpain

....

I don't think Petruchio wanted a doormat or arm candy. He wanted a partner - a wife who could match his wit, keep him company intellectually as well as sexually. What he didn't want was a battle every hour on the hour. Kate wanted her independence, and she found it in serving the man she grew to love.

Yes, I think I am a Kate.



I so agree.

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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 12:59:59 PM   
kittinSol


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Katherina is a virgin, and terrified of sexual intercourse, like a skittish gazelle in front of the great Lion. The play is about successfully getting to screw the shrew, ie. the virgin.

edit: Miss Pelling.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 3/25/2008 1:00:46 PM >


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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 1:13:49 PM   
Lashra


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I believe the perfect model of a womans place is, whereever she wants to be. Her choice mind you, not what a backward society or worn out traditions say that she should be. That out of the way, this is not my favorite play as its misogynistic leaning turns me off totally.

However my male sub said he would love to be Katherine and wear her clothes. He can just imagine his 6 ft 4 inch tall, 250lbs.  form in her lovely gowns and pettipants. I believe he would look damn breath taking.

As for how to break a woman (or a man for that matter) a sledgehammer would work quite effectively.

~Lashra


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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 1:30:30 PM   
CraZYWiLLiE


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I love the part when the men bet, and the girls say no, but not kat, she is spot on!!!!

I need to find the words she said, what utter devotion to her Master/Lord...

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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 1:46:19 PM   
DesFIP


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I don't think that she has suddenly become stupid enough to not know if it's the sun, the moon or a lit rush. Or that she cannot tell the difference between a young maiden and an aged man. I think she is agreeing with him to get what she wants. But at the same time, he is well aware of her strength and power of will, and respects her for it. And it is that, respect and power in her own home, albeit under his power, that allows her to no longer be angry and bitter.

She wouldn't yield to her father's will because he made clear that he thought her of no value. Petruchio sees her value and that makes all the difference.

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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 1:56:00 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

where in the final climax of the play is Katharina weak, timid, powerless, or dependant?

she bests both woman and men intellectually...she is given one of the longest speeches a woman ever is in the whole Shakespearean cannon, she stands there glorious over the other women present and her husband is clearly delighted with her and tells her so

its actually a very empowering one for Kate



She lies to him, by his demand, about what she sees and percieves.  The moon/sun bit, old man/budding virgin ~ which is just further humilation for her. 

She becomes dependant and powerless in a huge way also, because of the whole marriage.  He ONLY marries her for her money.  NOT for love. 

It is a bet.

So, he wins the bet, by abusing her, and gains her financial resources.  And yes, they become HIS.  And he has already shown that she will be dependant on his MOODS for every stitch of clothing, every bite of food. . . et cetera. 

And then, that last speech.  That is truely beautiful.  She no longer has her own voice.  She has become a mouthpiece for the patriarchy. 

And, she has turned on the other females, and become their enemy, in order to gain male approval, which she must have in order to prevent more abuse from her husband. 

Yep, that is empowering. 

You will be so empowered if a man, under pretexts of marriage, takes your finacial security, starves you, deprives you of sleep, rapes you, denies you clothing, makes you lie to stroke his vanity, decieve people, and destroys your relationships with others. 

Domestic terror and abuse is NEVER okay.

Succombing to battered-woman's syndrome or Stckholm syndrome, is not the path to finding your true nature. 



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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Taming of Shrews - 3/25/2008 2:07:56 PM   
softness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I don't think that she has suddenly become stupid enough to not know if it's the sun, the moon or a lit rush. Or that she cannot tell the difference between a young maiden and an aged man. I think she is agreeing with him to get what she wants. But at the same time, he is well aware of her strength and power of will, and respects her for it. And it is that, respect and power in her own home, albeit under his power, that allows her to no longer be angry and bitter.

She wouldn't yield to her father's will because he made clear that he thought her of no value. Petruchio sees her value and that makes all the difference.


yes ..and that is thecrux of the thing for me... Petruchio gives her a means of being the positive side of herself.... and letting go of the destruction

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veritas, respectus honorque in corio





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