RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War

RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (Full Version)

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farglebargle -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 4:19:46 AM)
quote: Russia, China, North Korea, and a whole lot of others are more than willing to step in and hand them whatever technology they might want in exchange for filling up some supertankers. Hell, plenty of these characters would prefer to deal with someone who has plans to hurt us. Heck, that's a valid point. When there's a buck to be made, people's real ethics and commitment show. When it looked like a good Idea, Cheney and Rumsfeld were Hussein's Best Friends. Sold 'em weapons of mass destruction, too. Of course, when it looked like a good idea to loot the US Treasury, Hussein became a Very Bad Man. But hey, they're still making money off of marketing his corpse and continuing the occupation, aren't they? So why should our Greedy Bastards care about The People more than any other Greedy Bastards? Bush gave NOLA 10 Billion for reconstruction. Bush gave 30 Billion to bail out Bear Sterns, People are saying the 4 billion BAC/Countrywide deal is similarly structured, but BAC was nice enough to just eat the loss to keep the show going. ( How many more shitty mortgages get propped up like this... When will postage hit a buck? ) So it ain't "Doing right by The People" which motivates anyone here, it's the Euro.

farglebargle -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 4:22:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro Team America! America, Fuck yeah! um... Actually, I am really sick to death of America playing at world cop. Elsewhere I think we decided it was all just about oil resoures, overweening military spending and IP law colonialism... [8\|] It's Unconstitutional. The whole World Cop scam is just another 1000 year Reich in prettier clothes. The only advocates are crazy.

meatcleaver -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 4:51:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: The notion that what is left of Iraq will be in a position to credibly attack Isreal or the Saudis any time between now and when civilization returns is just silly. When civilization returns it will bring with it a supersufficiency of reasons never to mount those attacks. You're wrong again. Iraqi oil revenues in the hands of fanatics can make for a lot of big newspaper headlines fast, and just your say so isn't enough to stop that simple, basic reality. Russia, China, North Korea, and a whole lot of others are more than willing to step in and hand them whatever technology they might want in exchange for filling up some supertankers. Hell, plenty of these characters would prefer to deal with someone who has plans to hurt us. But I'm glad to see you're at least thinking about things, Noah. One has to ask why American foreign policy is run on behalve of Israel or maybe its just a collision of interests. Russia doesn't need supertankers filling and North Korea can't afford to have any filled. China, like America, will do what's in its interest to get oil and resources but so what, whether it is America or China that is consuming the world's resources, it will make little difference to anyone else. As for there being plenty of characters willing to hurt you, that is just paranoia. The characters that want to hurt you are characters that have usually suffered at the hands of US imperialism.

meatcleaver -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 4:55:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: Noah Civil war has been underway there for some time. The continued parroting of the absurd claim that this isn't the case is kind of horrifying. Why does the truth horrify you, Noah. While it's true that al-Qaeda has bombed mosques, mowed down the families of tribal chiefs, and has done everything else in its power to start a civil war, the people of Iraq have remained remarkably tranquil against all odds. The American Left and European Socialist types seem to have multiple orgasms over thoughts of a civil war in Iraq because they hate George Bush so much, but the fantasies aren't quite reality yet. Mostly it's just outside agents who are causing the problems we're seeing in Iraq, Noah. If you think the Iraqi population has remained remarkably tranquil you are delusional. I think even the American military accept that the majority of the insurgents were in fact indigenous Iraqis. The Sunnis are now taking American money to fight Al Qeada, whether they will still be of the same mind once American cash dries up is to be seen. As for civil war, that has been going on for years with peaks and troughs. To suggest it hasn't is also delusional

mnottertail -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 5:48:51 AM)
Prior to the invasion it was said this would be the case, and he is just catching onto it now? Ron

Sanity -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 6:08:51 AM)
Choose one, meat, because you can't have it both ways. First you claim that everybody hates Americans, now you say that anyone who believes that is suffering from bouts of paranoia... You're such a character! quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver As for there being plenty of characters willing to hurt you, that is just paranoia. The characters that want to hurt you are characters that have usually suffered at the hands of US imperialism.

mnottertail -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 6:11:16 AM)
I have often heard on (oh, I don't know, those personal broadcast pieces for lack of a better term) from the journalists and such that the thing they take away from meeting these people is not that they hate americans, but the american government. Ron

Politesub53 -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 6:18:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Noah in itself, your point about Iraq and what it will or wont be able to do is valid. I really think one should consider the influence Iran will have though. They are backing the Shia already and will continue to do so. Explain slowly why ANY AMERICAN should give a shit. Looking at a Globe, IT AIN'T OUR FUCKING PROBLEM. So, aside from making some people wealthy, and fulfilling a Crazy Fundamentalist Religious Fantasy what dog do we have in this fight? Its a simple explaination FB. American foreign policy is deeply tied into Isreal and Saudi Arabia. If they leave and the situation deteriorates America will get dragged into a far wider and far costly, in both lives and dollars, than they are already. You may not give a shit but lots of your countrymen must do, or we wouldnt be at the stage we are now. Bush didnt get voted out last team, so enough people must have thought he was/is doing okay. Keeping on telling me to look at a globe, wont change the choices being made by Your presidents, either this one or future ones. Dont shoot me, im only the messenger.

Sanity -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 6:18:29 AM)
Your saying so doesn't make it so. After all thats been done to them to prod them to erupt into a civil war, Iraqis have remained remarkably tranquil. Iraqis are turning on al-Qaeda out of resentment. You and your ilk would like everyone to believe that American soldiers are so hated by everyone there, but Americans are the ones handing out candy and soccer balls and powerplants and schools while al-Qaeda hands out death and untold misery. But keep up your propaganda war, enough people will eventually see through it that it will do your efforts more harm than good in the end. In the information age, reality checks are only a few keystrokes away... quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver If you think the Iraqi population has remained remarkably tranquil you are delusional.

Politesub53 -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 6:21:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle When it looked like a good Idea, Cheney and Rumsfeld were Hussein's Best Friends. Sold 'em weapons of mass destruction, too. Good point FB and worse than that America removed Iraq from the list of Countries who sponsor terrorists, to enable the sales to go ahead.

Politesub53 -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 6:25:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Your saying so doesn't make it so. After all thats been done to them to prod them to erupt into a civil war, Iraqis have remained remarkably tranquil. Iraqis are turning on al-Qaeda out of resentment. You and your ilk would like everyone to believe that American soldiers are so hated by everyone there, but Americans are the ones handing out candy and soccer balls and powerplants and schools while al-Qaeda hands out death and untold misery. But keep up your propaganda war, enough people will eventually see through it that it will do your efforts more harm than good in the end. In the information age, reality checks are only a few keystrokes away... quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver If you think the Iraqi population has remained remarkably tranquil you are delusional. How can you ignore the fact that Shia Militia`s have been carrying out many of the bombings and attacks ? A simple web search will show you that. Yes AQ has been involved, but so have the Iraq Militias.

Sanity -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 6:29:46 AM)
It's a desperate lie that claims America sold Iraq WMDs. There's a picture of Saddam meeting with Rumsfeld that some conspiracy theorists say prove this and that but there are also pictures of Churchill and Roosevelt meeting with Stalin... While the United States had legitimate interest in the outcome of the Iraq - Iran war, in keeping the radicals who control Iran from gaining control of the resources of Iraq, that in itself doesn't prove that anyone in America "loved" Saddam Hussein as farg and others try to claim. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle When it looked like a good Idea, Cheney and Rumsfeld were Hussein's Best Friends. Sold 'em weapons of mass destruction, too. Good point FB and worse than that America removed Iraq from the list of Countries who sponsor terrorists, to enable the sales to go ahead.

Sanity -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 6:33:34 AM)
I have not ignored it, I have said that outsiders are mostly to blame for the violence in Iraq. Iran is believed to be behind the militia of which you speak, and further, the Iraqi government itself is dealing with that (al sadr) militia. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 How can you ignore the fact that Shia Militia`s have been carrying out many of the bombings and attacks ? A simple web search will show you that. Yes AQ has been involved, but so have the Iraq Militias.

philosophy -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 8:54:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail I have often heard on (oh, I don't know, those personal broadcast pieces for lack of a better term) from the journalists and such that the thing they take away from meeting these people is not that they hate americans, but the american government. Ron ......specifically, Ron, US foreign policy.

meatcleaver -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 8:59:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity I have not ignored it, I have said that outsiders are mostly to blame for the violence in Iraq. Iran is believed to be behind the militia of which you speak, and further, the Iraqi government itself is dealing with that (al sadr) militia. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 How can you ignore the fact that Shia Militia`s have been carrying out many of the bombings and attacks ? A simple web search will show you that. Yes AQ has been involved, but so have the Iraq Militias. In an interview on German TV, according to the American commander on the ground, the majority of the insurgents were Iraqi Sunnis so you are obviously better informed than he is Sanity! America has bought the Sunni insurgents and pay them off in cash and according to the same commander, when asked what will happen when the money stops flowing, he said, 'We will have to wait and see.' He said in around about way, obviously feeling uncomfortable about the payment of wads on cash (all on camera), that he hopes during the relative peace the cash is buying, that the Americans can win round the Sunni fighters so they will remain feeling it is in their interest to be on side in the future. As for there not being a civil war, the actual body count of civilians in Iraq is around 90,000. To say no civil war is or has been taking place, Iraq is a pretty violent place on a Saturday night. http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ One can speculate how many other civilians have died without there being a body to count.

Sanity -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 9:52:05 AM)
Some of what you say may be partially true, but what I said earlier is entirely true - Iraqis are turning on al-Qaeda, which is a Sunni organization foreign to Iraq. If its true as you say that we are paying Sunni insurgents to work for us, so what. It just goes to help prove my point that things can't be too bad there, they can't be too devoted to civil war if a little bit of cash is all they're really after (as you yourself insist). I looked at your website - as to the speculative body counts, those numbers are all taken out of proper context and the numbers are wild guesses made by people with obvious political agendas. Look at the way they word things. That's quite the biased website. Here's an example of their daily "count": quote: Babil Hilla: 2 policemen killed in clashes. Hamza: 3 policemen killed in clashes. Mahaweel: roadside bomb kills 4 policemen. Maysan Amara: 2 die in clashes. Salahuddin Baiji: mortars kill woman. Kirkuk Daquq: gunen kill 4 bodyguards of Commander of Peshmerga. Kirkuk: car bomb kills policeman. Basra Basra: bomb kills 3 bodyguards of police chief; 4 protesters are shot dead. Diyala Muqdadiya: mass graves containing 42 bodies are found. What do those statistics really mean to this thread, not much. Statistics like those would mean we have a civil war in LA right now. 42 bodies found could be from the Iran/Iraq war. It's pretty much meaningless. The news lately has been that by most accounts, things are settling down there. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver In an interview on German TV, according to the American commander on the ground, the majority of the insurgents were Iraqi Sunnis so you are obviously better informed than he is Sanity! America has bought the Sunni insurgents and pay them off in cash and according to the same commander, when asked what will happen when the money stops flowing, he said, 'We will have to wait and see.' He said in around about way, obviously feeling uncomfortable about the payment of wads on cash (all on camera), that he hopes during the relative peace the cash is buying, that the Americans can win round the Sunni fighters so they will remain feeling it is in their interest to be on side in the future. As for there not being a civil war, the actual body count of civilians in Iraq is around 90,000. To say no civil war is or has been taking place, Iraq is a pretty violent place on a Saturday night. http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ One can speculate how many other civilians have died without there being a body to count.

cjan -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 10:05:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro Am I following this correctly? 0. Iraq is a fractious place prone to eruptions of violence. Iraq was formally under the thumb of Saddam Hussein (himself formally under the thumb of U.S. puppet-masters). But Saddam kept the uneasy peace and the oil flowed. 1. The U.S. should not have invaded Iraq. But we did and now Saddam is gone. 2. Having invaded, we can't leave any time soon because it will lead to civil war. All of this was a foreseeable result given the place and the removal of the man maintaining the uneasy peace there. The oil does not flow as it used to and some even goes missing. Sounds to me like we should set up another puppet and get the fuck out but most people are too stupid to see that obvious and completely workable strategy. There was no point to the invasion unless what you really wanted to do was to transfer wealth from the lower and middle class and give to certain elite government friends like Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater, etc. That's how and why taxpayer monies pay for war. The only reason to stay is the same reason as above (i.e. Reverse Robin Hood - taking from the poor and giving to the rich). Or is that obvious fact actually in dispute? Actually, not a bad idea, Churro. I hadn't thought of that. As repulsive an idea as that seems, it may be the best solution, given the circumstances. The world is a badass place, and sometimes we have to do badass things just to be pragmatic. Maybe we could find one of Saddam's former doubles and set him up. It would scare the bejusus out of the population and , maybe calm things down. Fear is a great motivator. "Oh no, Saddam is alive, this was all a hoax just to see who his enemies are. Long live the duppy conqueror" !

caitlyn -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 10:26:28 AM)
Yeah, what we need right about now is a really tough strong man to take charge, so we can leave. Anyone know where we can get our hands on one? [;)]

mnottertail -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 10:28:17 AM)
They killed the last one.............. where is manuel noriega?

Sanity -> RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War (3/28/2008 10:30:48 AM)
Pinapple face? He's just a dope dealer, isn't he? Everyone swears they're harmless. quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail They killed the last one.............. where is manuel noriega?

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