RE: those damn illegals

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Mercnbeth -> RE: those damn illegals (3/31/2008 2:35:46 PM)
quote: The economy in parts of the country (emphasis on "parts") is greatly influenced by the need to have a large pool of lower wage workers. That just is, what it is. This is both a national and a regional problem. The talking points by Popeye and Merc, use the former to support their position, while completely ignoring the latter. Caitlyn, Now what kind of argument is that? "That just is, what it is." Does it always have to be? The US is a VERY mobile society. The mass exodus from the 'rust belt' into Florida and places south can be attributed to that. They didn't move just because of the weather. They moved because there were jobs in those southern states. They would move if those jobs currently undervalued and underpaid by criminal companies, paid a wage better reflecting the value. To accomplish this - eliminate the illegal workers being underpaid. The worker pool would be similar filled as was the construction workers leaving to live in Las Vegas and similar growing economies. QED Your bottom line is flawed. "Absorb"ing is much different than allowing an underground criminal economy. Its also flawed considering that should it not work, ALL citizen benefits, SS, SSI, Medicaid, etc.; would have be considered in the budget. SS is bankrupt now. Consenting to pay it out on 5 Million more who have paid little, if anything into it, and you may not be able to support existing beneficiaries. However once again, I'll point to the criminal companies who will be the biggest beneficiaries. The companies, who didn't pay their appropriate share of employee taxes, would also be given amnesty. In fact their amnesty would be valued in the Billions, pointing again how supporting illegal worker amnesty provides the biggest amnesty to the criminal companies and industries who employ them. Contrast that with first eliminating the criminals and to paying market based wages to US citizens. I'd suggest that "no risk" proposal be tried first. Should it turn out that there is not enough workers it would make a case for easing LEGAL immigration. One last consideration that is often left out of the conversation. How do you address those currently waiting in line at the State Department? What of those who are waiting for the LEGAL process? Do we just call them "fools" and say - "You should have snuck in!"?

Politesub53 -> RE: those damn illegals (3/31/2008 2:42:04 PM)
Caitlyn That was a very nice post. I doubt many would argue with your points. The following is a list of concerns, although the situtation in the US may differ from the UK. The effect it has on social housing. With UK citizens often having to take second place in the queue. The effect on current wage rates, construction workers being one group here affected by cheap labour. The effect on already stretched health services, with many hospitals being overloaded by too high a demand. The effect on schooling, many inner city schools in the UK have so many different nationalities teachers are finding it hard to cope, due to language problems. The problem here is all of these infrastructures work on long term planning, and struggle to cope with large short term influxes. The government supplied estimates, of how many will enter the UK in a certain time span, have been woeful. Politicians need to debate the situation on a mid to long term basis. There is no doubt immigration is needed in certain areas. However it should be done properly, and with proper controls. Incidentally i had to smile at the idea that a country the size of America lacks resources, when we have managed to cram a Fifth of your population, into an area not much larger than Arkansas :)

popeye1250 -> RE: those damn illegals (3/31/2008 3:16:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy If an economy is so dependant on an illegal factor then that weakness will almost inevitably lead to a crash of some sort some day. The economy in parts of the country (emphasis on "parts") is greatly influenced by the need to have a large pool of lower wage workers. That just is, what it is. This is both a national and a regional problem. The talking points by Popeye and Merc, use the former to support their position, while completely ignoring the latter. I still haven't seen any workable solutions presented. The minimum wage is not going to be raised to twenty dollars an hour. Using that as a solution ... it makes a nice, feel good thread, but has no meaning past that. Inisisting that these folks will just leave if we go after the employers that hire them ... again, that sounds nice, and makes a great thread, but doesn't address the point of what we would do, if the poster is incorrect. So, if we try to stick to what can actually be accomplished, perhaps we can have some debate that goes beyond what sounds nice, and makes a good thread. For discussion. 1. We could make all people in the United States as workers, immediately legal. There could be conditions like learning English and paying taxes, but the point remains. This absolutely does address the point of those that hammer in the letter of the law. They would no longer be illegal, so we would no longer have an enforcement problem, either for the people or those that employ them. 2. These people live here now, and have jobs now. There is no question that we could absorb them ... they are here already. 3. Tax revenue gathered from these people, could be used to strengthen border enforcement, if thats what we decide needs to happen. 4. American companies that have moved overseas, should be stongly encouraged, one way or the other, to move back to the United States, to take advantage of this new legal, low income labor pool. 5. Bottom line ... if none of this works, we are out nothing. There is no risk. This is a claim that cannot be made by those on the other side, favoring more drastic measures. "There will never again be anymore amnesties." "The borders will henceforth be secured." -Senator Ted Kennedy 1986 - Caitlyn, are you going to college so that you can get a "low paying" job when you graduate? I don't think we need anymore "low paying" jobs in this country, I think we need to start creating some "good paying" jobs for working class and middle class people in this country. Let's "outsource" "low paying" jobs. Oh yeah, I can see some "incentives" for those companies who moved overseas, shut them out of our markets completely!

popeye1250 -> RE: those damn illegals (3/31/2008 3:22:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pissdoll Congress has passed 7 amnesties for illegal aliens, starting in 1986. 1. Immigration and Reform Control Act (IRCA), 1986: A blanket amnesty for some 2.7 million illegal aliens 2. Section 245(i) Amnesty, 1994: A temporary rolling amnesty for 578,000 illegal aliens 3. Section 245(i) Extension Amnesty, 1997: An extension of the rolling amnesty created in 1994 4. Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central American Relief Act (NACARA) Amnesty, 1997: An amnesty for close to one million illegal aliens from Central America 5. Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act Amnesty (HRIFA), 1998: An amnesty for 125,000 illegal aliens from Haiti 6. Late Amnesty, 2000: An amnesty for some illegal aliens who claim they should have been amnestied under the 1986 IRCA amnesty, an estimated 400,000 illegal aliens 7. LIFE Act Amnesty, 2000: A reinstatement of the rolling Section 245(i) amnesty, an estimated 900,000 illegal aliens http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/amnesty.html Do you think Ted Kennedy was fucking lying to the American People when he said that in 1986?

caitlyn -> RE: those damn illegals (3/31/2008 5:01:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Now what kind of argument is that? "That just is, what it is." Does it always have to be? It's a practical argument, and one that doesn't ignore the way things actually are, in favor of a dream that isn't the current reality. Does it always have to be this way ... no. when it changes, that will then be what it is. [;)] quote: Your bottom line is flawed. "Absorb"ing is much different than allowing an underground criminal economy. Its also flawed considering that should it not work, ALL citizen benefits, SS, SSI, Medicaid, etc.; would have be considered in the budget. SS is bankrupt now. Consenting to pay it out on 5 Million more who have paid little, if anything into it, and you may not be able to support existing beneficiaries. One last consideration that is often left out of the conversation. How do you address those currently waiting in line at the State Department? What of those who are waiting for the LEGAL process? Do we just call them "fools" and say - "You should have snuck in!"? Benefits is clearly the biggest flaw in my position ... but I feel reasonably sure that it will be easier to pay for this, than to suffer the result of raising the wage to pick fruit to twenty dollars an hour, or continuing on the path we are currently on. On the last point, I would let them in right away.

caitlyn -> RE: those damn illegals (3/31/2008 5:12:29 PM)
These are all good concerns ... and I'm not going to sit here and say that any plan isn't full of challenges. It's a difficult problem, and will not be solved painlessly. That's kind of my point. The "kick them out" lobby, is for the most part ignoring the impact this will have in our society.

caitlyn -> RE: those damn illegals (3/31/2008 5:17:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 I don't think we need anymore "low paying" jobs in this country, I think we need to start creating some "good paying" jobs for working class and middle class people in this country. Let's "outsource" "low paying" jobs. Oh yeah, I can see some "incentives" for those companies who moved overseas, shut them out of our markets completely! Masses of low paying jobs, would have the potential of fueling higher paying jobs. Industrial workers need supervision, etc ... You point reminds me of when I hear a politician say that we want every American to get a college education. Sounds wonderful in theory, but taken to it's logical conclusion, all you will end up with is college graduates asking if you want fries with that.

cloudboy -> RE: those damn illegals (3/31/2008 5:18:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth criminal economy Immigration laws are regulatory in nature, not criminal. You are misspeaking here.

farglebargle -> RE: those damn illegals (3/31/2008 5:25:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: pissdoll Congress has passed 7 amnesties for illegal aliens, starting in 1986. 1. Immigration and Reform Control Act (IRCA), 1986: A blanket amnesty for some 2.7 million illegal aliens 2. Section 245(i) Amnesty, 1994: A temporary rolling amnesty for 578,000 illegal aliens 3. Section 245(i) Extension Amnesty, 1997: An extension of the rolling amnesty created in 1994 4. Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central American Relief Act (NACARA) Amnesty, 1997: An amnesty for close to one million illegal aliens from Central America 5. Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act Amnesty (HRIFA), 1998: An amnesty for 125,000 illegal aliens from Haiti 6. Late Amnesty, 2000: An amnesty for some illegal aliens who claim they should have been amnestied under the 1986 IRCA amnesty, an estimated 400,000 illegal aliens 7. LIFE Act Amnesty, 2000: A reinstatement of the rolling Section 245(i) amnesty, an estimated 900,000 illegal aliens http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/amnesty.html Do you think Ted Kennedy was fucking lying to the American People when he said that in 1986? DUH!

LadyHathor -> RE: those damn illegals (3/31/2008 5:29:26 PM)
So My question is what happened to all the Americans who ran to Canada during the Vietnam War and became illegal aliens in Canada-and what of all the Americans running there now to escape the economy here---My how our memory fades, must be Alzheimers.

Griswold -> RE: those damn illegals (3/31/2008 5:38:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHathor *So My question is what happened to all the Americans who ran to Canada during the Vietnam War and became illegal aliens in Canada----My how our memory fades, must be Alzheimers.* Well, number 1, Canada has had a long standing agreement to take Americans under their wing, then and now...so long as they identify themselves and sign in. We do not currently have a similar arrangement with Mexico or their citizens. Number 2) Mexicans (and others) who are here illegally...are here illegally. Simple stuff. They broke the law. Is the law right? I haven't a clue, but it is currently the law, and therefore...these people are lawbreakers. No less so than those who smoke (that dubious weed) are also breaking the law. There's a bunch of them that sit in prison today, some from the 80's that got 25 years for what today would get you the equivalent of a parking ticket...but...them's the breaks. I did some questonable things 20 years ago (and occasionally now)...I didn't get caught. Thankfully. Do most of these Hispanics do a good days work for an honest days pay? Uh huh...in fact, on my crews, many of them make more per hour than the white guys...because they work harder, longer and without any griping. Yep...I have some of them on my crews. Not of course that I would know that...because every one of them has "legal" docs. You see, I don't have the right to question their docs. If they appear legal, and the feds don't send me a letter saying they ain't....I'm keeping them. Did they break the laws getting (and staying) here? I wouldn't know....mine have legal docs. But until the feds change the laws....if any of them are here without proper docs...and they get arrested....they broke the law. (And I'll have to go look for about 3 white guys for every one of those Mexicans....to replace them...which of course, naturally means...your price for my services will rise...because "illegal" Mexicans ain't stealing your job....they're simply doing it better, faster, more efficiently and with less griping than you). They still, however, broke the law.

Smith117 -> RE: those damn illegals (3/31/2008 5:39:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHathor So My question is what happened to all the Americans who ran to Canada during the Vietnam War and became illegal aliens in Canada-and what of all the Americans running there now to escape the economy here---My how our memory fades, must be Alzheimers. Highlighting one wrong thing does not excuse another. Nice try. [sm=applause.gif]

MissMorrigan -> RE: those damn illegals (3/31/2008 11:14:14 PM)
In the first instance, yes he is right, Politesub, and it was worth highlighting. However, it's a tactic used by both sides to push forward their points when in disagreement over such an issue, although rarely admitted to but that's likely b/c people don't realise it's a behaviour they're engaging in, if that makes sense. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 You talk of transference and Popeye was right, the minute illegal labour is mentioned, the word "Racist" gets bandied around. I dont see a general resurgance of the BNP, in the last general election they didnt even get 3/4 of 1% of the vote. This doesnt mean that many people are not worried by, and want to discuss, the effect of illegal labour. I cannot disagree with you at all here either. I think people's focus, in general, is misdirected and every time we buy cheap goods/produce we need to be checking ourselves b/c while we voice our objections to illegal labour we're also quite happy to purchase those cheap goods. Swings and roundabouts, Politesub. We're all hypocrites in that respect. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 The fact illegal labour underpins sections of the economy, fails to make it right, that human beings can be forced to work in the conditions you mention. Should be, but rarely are. A classic example of this is the infamous cockle pickers in the UK. People that were brought over to the UK and were forced to work in very poor conditions picking cockles - which led to several deaths. I also made a comment previously about lazy nationals, which is true to a greater degree. Townie westerners seem to be afraid of hard work, even when those towns do have those locals available. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Everyone fails to see the fact that in many cases, there are just not the sufficient numbers of locals to do the jobs required. In these cases labour laws should be enforced on employers to do the right thing.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: those damn illegals (4/1/2008 6:32:04 AM)
This is the second time I have read this. Since I live in the SE United States, and the cost of living is not very high, maybe this failing economy causing people to migrate is not an impact here. Are there people actually leaving the US to go to Canada because of the economy? If so, will that not soon cause the available jobs to become limited and then cause problems with Canada's economy? As to those that mentioned something about making the Federal Min Wage 20$, are you crazy? Don't get me wrong, I am not on the side of big business but that would cause what is left of much of big business to leave the US. Several large corps in the past 12 years, when deciding to locate their headquarters, have chosen outside the US because of the employee expenses. This includes all the extra taxes an employer pays just to have someone work for them. Now you want to increase that even more? So how do propose to keep some of that big business here? How do you propose some of the small businesses stay in business with such a huge wage increase? As a small business owner, and as a Business Consunltant, I can guarantee the small and medium businesses are not making vast profits so this would drive them out of business. Secure the border, however it needs to be done. Then assimilate those that are here illegally through a thorough process to eliminate any that are felons. As far as attracting some of the manufacturing and such back to the US, the Fair Tax would help with that, along with the US accepting that buying cheap will need to go out the window with increased import tariffs. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHathor So My question is what happened to all the Americans who ran to Canada during the Vietnam War and became illegal aliens in Canada-and what of all the Americans running there now to escape the economy here---My how our memory fades, must be Alzheimers.

thompsonx -> RE: those damn illegals (4/1/2008 7:34:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf This is the second time I have read this. Since I live in the SE United States, and the cost of living is not very high, maybe this failing economy causing people to migrate is not an impact here. Are there people actually leaving the US to go to Canada because of the economy? If so, will that not soon cause the available jobs to become limited and then cause problems with Canada's economy? As to those that mentioned something about making the Federal Min Wage 20$, are you crazy? Don't get me wrong, I am not on the side of big business but that would cause what is left of much of big business to leave the US. Several large corps in the past 12 years, when deciding to locate their headquarters, have chosen outside the US because of the employee expenses. This includes all the extra taxes an employer pays just to have someone work for them. Now you want to increase that even more? So how do propose to keep some of that big business here? How do you propose some of the small businesses stay in business with such a huge wage increase? When a company goes off shore for labor they should be considered a foreign company and taxed appropriately thus bringing the cost of their product equal to a domestic product. If a company is allowed to outsource their labor who will be left in this country to buy their product? You speak as if $20 an hour is a huge amount...when I first went to work the minimum wage was 95 cents an hour and gasoline was a .20 cents a gallon. That would mean that an hours work would get you five gallons of gas. Today gasoline is $4 a gallon so it would require $20 an hour for parity. If we look at housing the difference is even greater even with the "slump" (some might call it a crash) my first new house cost $10,000 it was on quarter of an acre of land in southern California less than twenty miles from the beach. It had three bedrooms and two bathrooms, hardwood floors and a two car garage and a fenced back yard. That same house today(not a comparable one but that exact same house) sold for a half million dollars less than two weeks ago. If the purpose is to destroy the middle class and have a two tiered society with the wealthy on top of a huge under-class of poverty stricken serfs then we are well on our way. Henry Ford recognized that if he priced his cars within the grasp of his workers he could sell one to everyone of them...well he was wrong he sold two to every one of them and became a gazillionair in the process. As long as government is in cahoots with big business the rich will get richer and the poor will get pregnant. As a small business owner, and as a Business Consunltant, I can guarantee the small and medium businesses are not making vast profits so this would drive them out of business. Secure the border, however it needs to be done. Then assimilate those that are here illegally through a thorough process to eliminate any that are felons. The simplest and least expensive way to secure the border is to remove the attraction. If the jobs that these people are filling paid a wage that would attract citizens then the illegal could not get a job. The simple way to do this is two fold. Immediate and sever sanctions for those who hire the illegals. Asset forfeiture and prison time...ten years minimum(how could you give a slaver less time). Increase the minimum wage so that citizens would be inclined to take jobs instead of welfare. Who among us would work for less than what welfare pays? The person who raises their hand for this question is less than disingenuous they are a god damn liar. As far as attracting some of the manufacturing and such back to the US, the Fair Tax would help with that, along with the US accepting that buying cheap will need to go out the window with increased import tariffs. I agree...The U.S. is a huge market and if they want to sell here this is what it cost. I for one do not mind paying what something is worth. I produce most of my own food. If I were to pay myself $10 an hour for the labor that is involved I could easily cut my food bill by 75% by buying in the supermarket. I choose not to because the quality of what I produce is superior by all measures. Consequently I am willing to pay the higher price of self production because I feel it is worth it.

philosophy -> RE: those damn illegals (4/1/2008 8:14:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn I still haven't seen any workable solutions presented. ....er.......did you read my post 331? No offence intended but you haven't answered the points it makes or addressed the fact that it gave a concrete route to address the problem. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, no new laws are needed, just a willingness to enforce laws currently on the books. All i've suggested is that those current laws are enforced in a controlled manner in order to give time for industry to readjust to a new, more vigilant regime.

caitlyn -> RE: those damn illegals (4/1/2008 12:58:29 PM)
You are correct, I should have addressed it. My apologies. To me, it will be close to impossible to not suffer ill effects, no matter how this issue is handled. Merc correctly pointed out the stress these people are currently putting on the medical industry and the potential negative impact they would have on Social Security. The former is already happening ... unfortunate, but not something we are unable to deal with ... as we are dealing with it now. The latter is clealry something we would have to work through. There is no point in running from that ... Merc is right, and it's a problem. I guess my counter to your point, is that the one thing we have to avoid at all costs is taking an economic hit at the "feel the pinch" level ... at a time when we are facing recession. It's strictly a question of money and practicality. Keeping the economy strong has the potential to yield enough revenue to make a meaningful attempt to solve the inevitable problems. An economic pinch, gives you different problems, with no money to solve them.

Mercnbeth -> RE: those damn illegals (4/1/2008 1:38:55 PM)
quote: It's strictly a question of money and practicality. Keeping the economy strong has the potential to yield enough revenue to make a meaningful attempt to solve the inevitable problems. An economic pinch, gives you different problems, with no money to solve them. caitlyn, The market will take care of itself on both sides of the equation, cost and wages. It isn't 'voodoo economics' or 'trickle down'. It is one thing - pragmatic. For a business to succeed it must have a market for its product that can be afforded by its customers/clients. There won't be a $20 orange any more than there will be $20/hour minimum wage. What there will be is entry level positions in businesses and industries; along with opportunities for people who can and want to do manual labor for a decent wage. Here's an example of that. Back in NJ/NY you couldn't get a good dry wall installer for less than $30/hour. I wanted to do some work on my house and was amazed that I could get a job bid based upon $10-15 / hour. I related that to the contractor and he just laughed and said I didn't have the opportunity to hire contractors subject to competition paying illegal workers $5/hour. The same holds true for things like lawn care and other service workers. This comes from personal first hand experience; I'm paying at least 50% less for lawn care, pool service, maid service in CA than I was paying for similar services while living in NJ/NY. I've verified that the people/companies I use aren't using illegal workers to the best of their, and my, ability to verify. Everyone of them have told me similar stories about why the price of their services is so low compared to the east coast. It tells me that EVERYONE who is a service provider or manual labor is being underpaid in CA due to the illegal workers. I'm confident that a similar situation exists in TX. Get rid of that downward pressure on wages created by the illegal workers and everyones wages will go up. So will my costs, I'm sure, but its preferable to pay more wages to US citizens than it is to pay SS and other taxes to benefit citizens of other countries. Sure there are some flagrant violations with "big" industries such as farming and places like Tyson; but if enforcement was strict and consequential the M.O. causing the workers to come here illegally would be radically reduced if not eliminated. The pressure to get workers will cause wages to increase. When it becomes obvious that you can make more picking produce, landscaping, drywall, plucking chickens, office cleaning, house cleaning, etc; than you can serving up burgers and McD's, McD's will have to raise wages to compete. Another major benefit will come from these industries having to pay their appropriate portion of income tax and SS. It could balance the budget without adding one new tax, or increasing the existing tax calculation. As I said, it should be worth a try before surrendering. It won't require one new law, and not one more border patrol. The focus on the employers will solve the problem.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: those damn illegals (4/1/2008 9:19:40 PM)
Thompson, I agree with much of what you have said. You cannot jump the minimum wage that dramatically though, as there are a lot of small and medium businesses it would put out of business. there will always be low paying jobs that some will not want to do, but I believe that says more about that society than anything else. When I say secure the borders, I do not mean to keep out immigrants. In fact I believe that the process should be more streamlined and easier to get work visas for the jobs that may be needed. Right now it is low cost labor, and if someone is willing to work for a lower wage, then they should be able to. I have worked cleaning out sewers for 4.85 an hour when I was 20, and then went into construction until I was 27. I have worked those low paying jobs because it is what I needed to do to put food on the table. That is all these illegal immigrants are doing, but we must control it or our infrastructure becomes over burdened. we cannot eliminate it or our economy suffers. The solution is not simple because there are many things tied into the problems. 1) Remove the impact that corporations have on political elections 2) Change from a wage tax to a consumption tax 3) secure the borders along with making it easier to immigrate but security must be maintained 4) Make requirements to keep work visas so that immigrants must learn about this country and it's language. These are some of the first steps. No one should be anti-capitalism, they should be anti-special treatment for entities that are not a person.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: those damn illegals (4/1/2008 9:33:49 PM)
Re: Moving to Canada. I recently investigated this (I looked at real estate on the Sunshine Coast in August 2006 and investigated legal residency requirements in December 2007) and it is nowhere as easy as people think, and I have a decent net worth. Just sayin...

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