Submissive, but Masculine...

Submissive, but Masculine... (Full Version)

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MistressNoName -> Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 8:47:36 AM)
I saw a profile today that got me wondering...so I posted these questions to my journal. Then I thought, "why not post this to the boards and see what happens?" Here `tis. There are many times when I see a submissive man's profile where he says he is submissive, but masculine. The questions are, why would any submissive man feel he needs to make such a statement? Is being submissive such an "unmanly" state that a submissive man has been made to feel he has to attach this disclaimer to his self-description, even on a kink site? Why is that? And yes, I'm aware of the obvious male-dominant societal bias response...but I'm more interested in going a bit deeper...Like, what attitudes might a man encounter in a kinky, just about anything goes environment, such as this is, that still fosters this need to declare one's masculinity? Perhaps this has been posted about before. But, there's a new male sub member joining everyday...and, I haven't seen this recently. So, I'm interested in all opinions, but mainly those of submissive men of all sexual kink/fetish/lifestyle orientations. Thanks, MNN

chamberqueen -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 9:14:37 AM)
As a former Domme, many men that approached me that way were trying to tell me that they did not want to dress like sissies or engage in bisexual play. They wanted to think of themselves as a true man bowing before a woman, not feminine.

Shawn1066 -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 9:25:20 AM)
Personally, I'm not a fan of the true man BS... It's just another attempt to try to fit people into molds. I'm definitely more feminine than masculine. This has nothing to do with my submission, rather it's just how I am as a person. This doesn't make me any less of a man and I shouldn't have to try to be something that I'm not just for the sake of "being a man". I don't blame people who go out of their way to "prove" their masculinity. They feel if they don't they'll be ridiculed. And, while that's some people's kink, it does really hurt a lot of people too. DV's Fox

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 9:30:01 AM)
Many many people in the kink world use gender stereotypes as a guide to what they feel is proper to align by orientation. There's tons of fem subs around who think male subs are icky and going against nature completely.

petdave -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 11:27:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressNoName There are many times when I see a submissive man's profile where he says he is submissive, but masculine. The questions are, why would any submissive man feel he needs to make such a statement? There are a lot of male subs who like to crossdress, like to be "forced" to crossdress, or identify as sissies, and a lot of Female Dominants who dislike that. i don't think the statement is intended to go a whole lot deeper than trying to distinguish that the writer is not one of... "them". [:-]

MistressNoName -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 11:34:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petdave quote: ORIGINAL: MistressNoName There are many times when I see a submissive man's profile where he says he is submissive, but masculine. The questions are, why would any submissive man feel he needs to make such a statement? There are a lot of male subs who like to crossdress, like to be "forced" to crossdress, or identify as sissies, and a lot of Female Dominants who dislike that. i don't think the statement is intended to go a whole lot deeper than making than trying to distinguish the writer as not being one of... "them". I suppose...if you are assuming that all or most Female Dominants are assuming that all male subs are cd or sissies...and if you think most or all Female Dominants somehow see cds and/or sissies as somehow less than masculine. Interesting. MNN Edited to Add: I suppose also that I like to think that most of us are able to see the part of a person as a part of the whole, rather than as the whole. Or, I could be wrong.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 11:54:59 AM)
I honestly tend to interpret that statement in a profile as a polite disinterest in feminization or male-on-male play. Since there are a large number of male submissives who express their submission by assuming a feminine persona, or who express their need to be humiliated by assuming female gender symbols like clothes, and many more who are bi, bi-curious, or aroused by forced-bi scenarios--I think it is probably not a bad idea for a man to say that he wants to submit as a gendered hetero male, if that's his orientation. Personally, I am attracted to male gender signals and traditional gender symbols for men--I enjoy watching martial artists spar, I like men wearing male clothes, I find beards and beard stubble sexy, etc.. Given the contrast between my own desires and the desires of many other femme dommes--some of whom enjoy feminizing their male subs tremendously, some of whom enjoy "forced bi" games tremendously, some of whom are looking for a man with an androgynous or feminine appearance (hairless body, beardless face, etc)...I can see why a man would state his own tendencies, hoping to find someone who was not looking for a Pretty Sissy, etc.. Just my two cents tho.

petdave -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 11:58:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressNoName quote: ORIGINAL: petdave There are a lot of male subs who like to crossdress, like to be "forced" to crossdress, or identify as sissies, and a lot of Female Dominants who dislike that. i don't think the statement is intended to go a whole lot deeper than making than trying to distinguish the writer as not being one of... "them". I suppose...if you are assuming that all or most Female Dominants are assuming that all male subs are cd or sissies...and if you think most or all Female Dominants somehow see cds and/or sissies as somehow less than masculine. Interesting. Aww, you immortalized my typo [:o] i'm not assuming that Female Dominants expect most men to be TV/CDs, just that there are a lot of CDs and sissies drawn to submission (or vice-versa), and that the number of Female Dominants who would reject somebody because he doesn't have feminine tendencies is a lot lower than the number that would reject a submissive because of them. The phrase that usually sums it up is "If I wanted a feminine submissive, I would choose a female submissive". i do assume that TV/CD/sissy submissives are seen as less masculine than "normal" men/malesubs... i'm not sure what the arguments to the contrary would be...

Tantriqu -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 12:10:36 PM)
I concur with Ms SS. Lol, a man stating he is 'submissive but masculine' makes my ears perk up! I personally find cd/tv in a submissive mocks the Female, and I wouldn't be interested in someone who requires that fetish. I love Dominating an alpha male; watching a tall manly man, especially at work, barking commands to his detectives or actors or students, and knowing in a few hours he will be kneeling, naked and obedient to me is a guaranteed soft-on.

azropedntied -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 1:02:57 PM)
I would say i am masculine though i did have a Domme really want to make me up like a woman make up dress and all , it pleased her did little for me .We stayed home and did this in private and was fun overall ,Until i was shown what i looked like .It was very frightening "i make one ugly woman " kinda like a footbal player in drag , or a westler in a dress and make up . Would i seek this out ?no its not really me If a Domme i was inolved with wished to do this and it pleased her ?maybe ..Just dont take me out in public . shutters it may start a riot with tourches and pitch forks . I prefer me in my man skin and prefer a Domme who like a muscular masculine kinda guy .Yet if thats your bdsm go forth and enjoy .

Cloudz -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 1:03:45 PM)
I concur :) You took the thoughts from my mind and posted them...I prefer a submissive alpha male all day long...mmmm

LadyHathor -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 1:10:15 PM)
*I do not find it has to do with the sissy/cross dress concept as much as the " I am an alpha male, hear me roar--and OMG if the boys find out I want to kneel at a woman's feet--I am so dead"----* Society is very quick to label---and men who prefer to take a submissive role, no matter what it is--get tagged the worst, IMHO, there is even derision among many male Dominants toward males subs... *I have so many come and say, "out there, i am alpha, but here i do not want to be..."-- but don't let anyone know, ok.* *ok.*

azropedntied -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 1:19:52 PM)
I am lucky i am Teflon coated and labels do not stick to me .Oddly enough cling film does work .. Some have the position of power like in the corporate world and need the bdsm release with out being outed ,maybe some have yet to hold the ability to release fully their masculine side and just give to another fully of themselves .Tough to say in a general topic .

MistressNoName -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 1:28:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petdave quote: ORIGINAL: MistressNoName quote: ORIGINAL: petdave There are a lot of male subs who like to crossdress, like to be "forced" to crossdress, or identify as sissies, and a lot of Female Dominants who dislike that. i don't think the statement is intended to go a whole lot deeper than making than trying to distinguish the writer as not being one of... "them". I suppose...if you are assuming that all or most Female Dominants are assuming that all male subs are cd or sissies...and if you think most or all Female Dominants somehow see cds and/or sissies as somehow less than masculine. Interesting. Aww, you immortalized my typo [:o] i'm not assuming that Female Dominants expect most men to be TV/CDs, just that there are a lot of CDs and sissies drawn to submission (or vice-versa), and that the number of Female Dominants who would reject somebody because he doesn't have feminine tendencies is a lot lower than the number that would reject a submissive because of them. The phrase that usually sums it up is "If I wanted a feminine submissive, I would choose a female submissive". i do assume that TV/CD/sissy submissives are seen as less masculine than "normal" men/malesubs... i'm not sure what the arguments to the contrary would be... petdave, First-off, it's good to hear you're not making that first assumption. I certainly hope that it was clear that I wasn't directing my statements directly at you, but rather in a more general way. Second, my post wasn't meant to make any statement regarding what constitutes "less masculine than `normal.'" Whatever "normal" is, I suspect it wouldn't be my thing, anyway. No, I'm really trying to point out that I find it interesting and a bit troubling that submissive men even feel a need to make statements about their masculinity, as if being submissive somehow negates it, no matter how it it expressed. (And the profile to which i am referring does not specify whether the sub is into "dressing" or "forced bi" play.) I say this because I know men who are self-identified cross-dressers, het, gay and bi, who identify as male-gendered but also like to express the feminine. I don't see that as any less masculine than those who do not wish to express the feminine either in their play or daily lives. I'm wondering why, especially on a site as "open" as this, one would even feel the need to make such a statement...it's really just a curiosity. I mean, if you're not into cross-dressing, isn't that simple enough to say (ie: Hard Limits: Crossdressing) rather than making it an issue of masculinity? I've not seen yet any woman on this site, Dominant or submissive, feel the need to make a statement about her femininity...and even if she did, what, pray tell, would it mean? Again, interesting. MNN

Shawn1066 -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 1:37:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tantriqu I personally find cd/tv in a submissive mocks the Female, and I wouldn't be interested in someone who requires that fetish. So, then does a female submissive mock women as well? I hope just because some transvestites are more submissive when in thier feminine persona doesn't mean that they're mocking females. There are a lot of females who are actually submissive, and I certainly don't think they're mocking women. Some transvestites are more at home, more at peace with their female persona. Are there some male submissives who feel that they can only be submissive when they're turned into a cariacture of females? Yes. Does this constitute -all- transvestites out there? Of course not. Of course, if you're referring to the over-the-top transvestites, who dress up as total carictures of women... Then I can certainly see your logic. But again, they don't constitute all transvestites, as I've said. DV's Fox

hopelesslyInvo -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 5:22:09 PM)
when in doubt i just negate. the opposite would be a feminine dominant sort. since masculine is the part not making sense i just put the word feminine in there and it pretty much shines a nice little light on it both sides. words can be misleading, so i think you almost always have to look at context in this fashion. i would generally expect if someone says they're a masculine submissive that it would mean they are proud of being a man, and of their body, and at the same time content with being strong yet humble. i think people relate the word submissive to being weak (physically/mentally/emotionally), so masculine could be a word that counter-balances things for a more accurate description of how they see themselves, but at the same time, it could just refer to body type~ i wouldn't call myself a masuline or feminine submissive, i'm neither macho or sissy, but i might be looked at as weak or insecure from my size and how i present or express myself.

Politesub53 -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 5:24:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHathor *I do not find it has to do with the sissy/cross dress concept as much as the " I am an alpha male, hear me roar--and OMG if the boys find out I want to kneel at a woman's feet--I am so dead"----* Society is very quick to label---and men who prefer to take a submissive role, no matter what it is--get tagged the worst, IMHO, there is even derision among many male Dominants toward males subs... *I have so many come and say, "out there, i am alpha, but here i do not want to be..."-- but don't let anyone know, ok.* *ok.* This is very true Ma`am. i fell submissives that state they are masculine, often feel a need to prove they can protect and provide. Regardless of whether they cross dress or not. Personally i dont care who know, as i am what i am. I have had a lot of negative feedback from friends i have trusted with this info though. Including one who said it didnt seem right being the submissive one in a relationship, yet he rushes home as soon as the bar closes as he gets hell if he is late.... Oh the irony of it all

hopelesslyInvo -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/29/2008 5:24:58 PM)
[:'(] i keep hitting wrong buttons today~

LPslittleclip -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/30/2008 4:51:42 PM)
I'm a straight male submissive and I'm very comfortable with my mascilineity but i see daily those who are not as comfortable with there own. so they have to make statements to reinforce it.

Archer -> RE: Submissive, but Masculine... (3/30/2008 5:25:32 PM)
OK you lose me when you say that expressing the feminen does not run counter to the masculine. Masculine and Feminen are pretty much opposite expressions. Granted there are variances of what constitutes each gender, but if you are going to use the term masculine as something other than the opposite or counterpoint to feminen then you are twisting language. If you want to twist the language that's fine but it loses all meaning and ability to communicate after you twist it past a certain point. Of course not a few here would be perfectly happy to render the terms masculine and feminen moot and meaningless. Counter to that I tend to prefer to celebrate the differences. edited to add BTW in case it's not clear this is a generalized reply.

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